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Morrowind was massive decline and should be considered as such

Jigby

Augur
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
395
You missed my whole point. It's completely possible to create a character that essentially can access all of what Daggerfall has to offer, at least skill wise. That alone makes replaying with a different focus less valuable. When you create a character in Morrowind you're forced to make tradeoffs, meaning that, unless you decide to do the whole fortify INT exploit later on, you're playing as a unique character from start to finish. This adds a lot of replay value since each character necessarily plays different to the last.

So basically, because it's possible to create a character that's master of all at least skill-wise, you extrapolated that every character is eventually a master of all everything-wise. I think in terms of skills you are probably right, the basic learn by doing system allows to you become expert at all skills, so there should have been some mechanics to limit that. But even that's not entirely true, since some skills are really easy to train and others difficult. To level up the language skills takes forever and if you have them as your primary skills... But build variety in Daggerfall comes mainly from the stat distribution, the advantages/disadvantages and the primary/major/minor skills. The advantages/disadvantages and the skill distribution is permanent and the stat distribution depending on your build can take a while to change. On the skill front, there are no inbuilt mechanics, so you'd have to houserule there (which I never minded doing, but I guess some people do :)). My main gripe with Morrowind is, it's difficult to create a character that feels gimped. The let's play you mention, where the guy has to pick and choose quests and avoid monsters - to me, that sounds great.
 

zapotec

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 7, 2018
Messages
1,501
It's the trainers that break-up Morrowind skill system, if you don't use them you will have a very hard time mastering all skills.
For example, in my last playtrought with no trains and with a length of around 80 hours, my armourer skill (misc skill) reached the 30-35 value (and i was repairing a lot of times thanks to light armour).
Only blunt weapons reached 100, followed by light armour at 90 and archery around 80. The rest of the Major / Minor skills were in the 40 - 70 range and my character level was 33.
 

yooow0t

Educated
Joined
Jan 21, 2019
Messages
34
You missed my whole point. It's completely possible to create a character that essentially can access all of what Daggerfall has to offer, at least skill wise. That alone makes replaying with a different focus less valuable. When you create a character in Morrowind you're forced to make tradeoffs, meaning that, unless you decide to do the whole fortify INT exploit later on, you're playing as a unique character from start to finish. This adds a lot of replay value since each character necessarily plays different to the last.

So basically, because it's possible to create a character that's master of all at least skill-wise, you extrapolated that every character is eventually a master of all everything-wise. I think in terms of skills you are probably right, the basic learn by doing system allows to you become expert at all skills, so there should have been some mechanics to limit that. But even that's not entirely true, since some skills are really easy to train and others difficult. To level up the language skills takes forever and if you have them as your primary skills... But build variety in Daggerfall comes mainly from the stat distribution, the advantages/disadvantages and the primary/major/minor skills. The advantages/disadvantages and the skill distribution is permanent and the stat distribution depending on your build can take a while to change. On the skill front, there are no inbuilt mechanics, so you'd have to houserule there (which I never minded doing, but I guess some people do :)). My main gripe with Morrowind is, it's difficult to create a character that feels gimped. The let's play you mention, where the guy has to pick and choose quests and avoid monsters - to me, that sounds great.

I didn't mean that literally all skills can be explored by one character but, that a sufficiently large cross section of skills can be experienced by one player. For example, you can put together a pretty varied array of skills in one character that let you experience the magic system, stealth, meele and ranged combat systems without too much penalty. You are also capable of wearing any armour in the game, engaging in alchemy, spellmaking and enchantment.

In Morrowind, the consequences for picking skills at random are much more pronounced since the primary skills category has been removed and the minor skills category has been decreased in size. You also have to consider the natural talents and capabilities of your race. Then you have to factor in how the skills you advance effect what attributes you can increase when you level up, forcing you to specialise whereas, in Daggerfall, you may dump stats as you please.

Regarding house rules and gimped characters, this seems like a pre-internet kind of mentality. OK, let's say you got Daggerfall when you were 13 and it was your first and only open world RPG for quite some time. You bet you're going to wring every last drop of fun out of it. But I'm 21 and have a games, book and movie backlog that are each over 100 items long. I have goals in life that aren't going to meet themselves.

For a game to get even a second playthrough from me, it has to actually inspire me to put in the effort to do that rather than move onto the next shiny object on my list. The kind of grinding necessary to hack it in the early game of Daggerfall with a weak build, the general aimlessness and overflexibility of it's character creation and the relatively bland factions, side quests and dungeons of the world don't bode well for a second playthrough. If Daggerfall had Morrowind's character system, maybe things would be different.

I found the world and character creation system of Morrowind to be so inspiring that I already have three more playthroughs planned. Each character has their own backstory as well, which I have never before been inspired to do. Each character is unique because they each focus on different factions, each have wildly different skill sets. This is all in spite of the fact that many of the early quests are fetch quests and there is no C&C to speak of.

If you want to take multiple quests in a row to send Lady Gwynderbottom or whoever else to sleep be my guest. I however will likely only try such a thing once. I am fascinated by Daggerfall, but not that fascinated.
 

Generic-Giant-Spider

Guest
Daggerfall was a game held back by the technology surrounding it but had so much ambition behind it that you wanted to see what would happen if it was given the chance to be fully realized as envisioned.

Morrowind is where the series began to prune things, streamline them and reduce the scope.

Just think if you played Daggerfall on release and as the rest of the '90s rolled by and games got better and better you start to think "what would a sequel to Daggerfall be like now?" You hear about Morrowind, you eagerly anticipate it, finally it releases and while it did well when it comes to worldbuilding it also diminished or outright abandoned a lot of Daggerfall's ideas. To a Daggerfall fanatic, Morrowind was to them what Oblivion or Skyrim was to a Morrowind fanatic.

The biggest takeaway from all the mainline Elder Scrolls games is this: Daggerfall is the only sequel that feels like it does what a sequel is supposed to and that is improve on its predecessor in every way. After Daggerfall is when you notice the series begin to shed itself more and more, more for the worse than better.
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
4,331
Honestly, I don't see the nihilism here. You just have to design your skill systems differently depending on how you progress. This means that skills that would usually be separate as part of a point buy system will be merged. I don't see this as a bad thing necessarily. You essentially have to design skills around the sorts of things you'd learn in real life.

I see nihilism in getting rid out of strategic aspect of character building in cRPG.

Let's say I decide to start going to a shooting range to "level up" my shooting skills. I'm not going to individually improve at reloading, hitting targets and getting headshots; I'm going to improve at all three simultaneously (especially the last two). You might have certain people who have different strengths, but in general they are all going to improve in one skill, not three.

Of course you could "over optimise" by pairing skills down further and further until you're left with nothing but base attributes again, but the easy solution is just to draw a line in the sand based on taste, or create a system where certain skills are related to one another and raise slightly with their relatives. Personally, Dodging, Critical Strike and Backstab go against my tastes, but could be incorporated into a system where skills are related just fine.

It's entirely reasonable to expect someone to be an excellent dodger or superb critical strike dealer. Let's have a system that reflects that and support character building. In real life people don't learn skills linearly, you always have people that suck at some aspect of their profession,but excel at other.

Not sure if that is what he meant, but the way I understood it (and I agree with that assumption) is that if you have a system based on skill points and you limit the number of skill points, you can make sure that no character can possibly learn everything.
E.g. say you have seven skill trees, but can only possibly max out three in a playthrough - and only if you really focus on only those three.
The viability of multiple playthroughs is obvious right there.

This is exactly what I meant. Thanks.
 

Nito

Educated
Patron
Joined
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Messages
81
We know Morrowind wasn't a decline because people too lazy to work out stats still complain about the combat.
 

samuraigaiden

Arcane
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RPG Wokedex
Morrowind’s main quest is one of the best cRPG stories, if not the best one of them all.

And it proves storyfags are actually dialoguechoicefags, otherwise they would idolize Morrowind instead of Mass Effect or whatever.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,350
Morrowind’s main quest is one of the best cRPG stories, if not the best one of them all.
Elaborate.

Because the main quest boils down to you being the chosen one and the ending itself is very anti-climatic, after all the build-up.
 

samuraigaiden

Arcane
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RPG Wokedex
Morrowind’s main quest is one of the best cRPG stories, if not the best one of them all.
Elaborate.

Because the main quest boils down to you being the chosen one and the ending itself is very anti-climatic, after all the build-up.

Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment boils down to a story about a dude who whacked an old lady and the ending itself is very anti-climatic, after all the build-up.

This kind of daft simplification is applicable to literally anything.
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
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Which choice?, there is no choice in Morrowind main quest.

Reading comprehension?

That was the point of his post
That storyfags don't actually care about good storytelling in games, but just how much faux C&C they have

EDIT: Did you really have to edit your post to a completely different point?

EDIT 2: Did you really have to entirely delete your post?
 
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DJOGamer PT

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Again you need to replay it (assuming you did play it in the first place) and this time pay some attention to what's going on in your screen
Not only is the question of whatever or not you truly are the Nerevarine is left very ambiguous (and in fact there's more proof to the contrary), one the game's main themes is how the interpretation (or misinterpretation) of historical events and cultural beliefs highly affects the present reality
 
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Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,350
Again you need to replay it (assuming you did play it in the first place) and this time pay some attention to what's going on in your screen
Not only is the question of whatever or not you truly are the Neverine is left very ambiguous (and in fact there's more proof to the contrary), one the game's main themes is how the interpretation (or misinterpretation) of historical events and cultural beliefs highly affect the present reality
Maybe you should play it? Because by now it's certain you've never played it.



Azura herself calls you - the player, in case it wasn't obvious enough for you - "Nerevar Reborn. Incarnate". In the outro (the video just above yours) you're directly called "Nerevarine", also by Azura. When talking to the ghosts of the Failed Incarnates you can ask them about "not the one" (indicating there is "the one"). The player wins the game by following the prophecy, which is essentially its own confirmation that he is the chosen one (which is supposed to be the Nerevarine). There is nothing "very ambiguous" about it.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
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Holy shit you really need to miss the whole point of how cool Morrowind plot is if you think what Azura says means anything. What she says means as much as when Dagoth Ur asks you if you are Nerevarine and you can state "hail Tiber Septim kek". Not to mention you can say fuck off to prooheesy twice in the game - either by being high level and ignoring half of it, or just ignoring the whole thing alltogether. False incarnations are literally meta. One of them outright states having high speech skills but getting rekked at Red Mountain because not enough combat xp. Azura states she watches you in the beginning, then you die to mudcrab.

Game has chosen one and prophecy same like Arcanum has it. But what makes plot interesting is not if you are or not, but what being one *is*.
 

DJOGamer PT

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Not only that but she also only "guides" the player in the hopes that he might fullfill the prophecy, not because he actually is the Nerevarine

Plus you have all other stuff like: how the Playable Character isn't actually imune to the plague but simply a sucessful test subject of an experiment that hides the plague's simptons; or how you become powerful because of all those artifacts and alchemies you acquire on your travels and trials rather than attaining some mythical combat and magical prowess like Nerevar had; or how you interact with the different factions by extensively learning their way of life and beliefs and using that knowledge plus their current predicment to manipulate them into helping you, rather than through some magical proof or ritual that you really are Nerevar reborn; and etc...

So all things considered it's just as likely, if not more, that the PC is simply a very capable imperial agent that happened to be at the right place at right time rather than the reincarnation of a god-king of old
 
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Shadenuat

Arcane
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I mean if you want a chosen one story look at skyhrim, where you kill dragon and eat the soul wow so awesome, or most bioware games. That's not how Morrowind plays its cards.

Too bad they didn't allow to join Dagoth Ur, because, actually, you could still easily fulfill the prophecy even if you didn't follow Azuras one. Nothing would stop you from freeing "false gods" (by killing them, which tbh happens anyway later in Tribunal), and you could even unite dunmer (against empire) and even maybe redeem Dagoth Ur by forgiving him or killing him and taking his power.

But whatever, canonically Bethesda just nuked the whole place where their best game happened :shitposting:
 

kreight

Guest
A question to pundits. How to easily remember how to pronounce this prophetic name? I always get confused and say Nereravine, Neveraine, Nevmarine or some shit like that.
 

MWaser

Arbiter
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Nov 22, 2015
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614
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Where you won't find me
Morrowind's "story" is good for the standards of a Chosen One story, and carries very interesting and unique storytelling elements with in (in regards to the prophecy's ambiguity and aspects surrounding the lore / the false incarnate), but it is still quite overly fanboyish to just ignore the weaker aspects of the plot, such as the inexplicable fact that you're the only one who survives the potion given to you by Divyath Fyr (never explained and and it's just fanboy headcanon to handwave it as a coincidence or cuz you were stronk and they were not), and the eyerolly aspect of the direct confrontation with Dagoth Ur. Whether Azura lies to you or not doesn't matter, she is a deceiver but obviously you have to take the interpretation that she is lying for the story to be more interesting.

Not that I am saying the story is not good in this way, since I do want to give special apprecation to the details they genuinely did put a lot of attention to, but some other aspects which are often praised (implications of heavy meta references, Azura lying to you) only have a very vague or no actual basis for them in-game and only are based on extrapolations of supplementary materials. It's honestly good enough even if you just give heed only to the unquestionably good aspects already: the storytelling and worldbuilding aspects, the historical variety that shows history as being written by the winners, the deconstruction of religious cult into a very different take on everything.

A question to pundits. How to easily remember how to pronounce this prophetic name? I always get confused and say Nereravine, Neveraine, Nevmarine or some shit like that.
It's "never" but the letters are swapped -ar
 

Harthwain

Magister
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Messages
5,350
Holy shit you really need to miss the whole point of how cool Morrowind plot is if you think what Azura says means anything. What she says means as much as when Dagoth Ur asks you if you are Nerevarine and you can state "hail Tiber Septim kek".
It's certainly possible to question everything (or think there is some giant conspiracy involved), but I think too much of it lines up to be just one big coincidence: Azura, Dagoth Ur and Almalexia all recognize the player as the Nerevarine. The player is an orphan (or at least has an "uncertain birth") and an outlander, born under a certain sign. He is able to wear the Moon-and-Star ring and not die. He can (and does) fulfill the destiny. It all checks out. Occam's razor.

Not to mention you can say fuck off to prooheesy twice in the game - either by being high level and ignoring half of it [...]
Even if you never get to be proclaimed Nerevarine, because you do not follow the standard path, you will still be called Nerevarine by Azura in Tribunal. You may say that Azura saying anything means nothing, but developers writing that line for Azura means something and show a degree of consistency.

or just ignoring the whole thing alltogether.
You can ignore the main story, but this in itself means nothing. It just means you are not engaging in the main story.

Game has chosen one and prophecy same like Arcanum has it. But what makes plot interesting is not if you are or not, but what being one *is*.
I wasn't really disputing that. My main point was that it's foolish to argue that there is no chosen one in Morrowind.
 

OSK

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The player is an orphan (or at least has an "uncertain birth") and an outlander, born under a certain sign. He is able to wear the Moon-and-Star ring and not die.

The player was also handpicked by the Empire precisely because he met several of the criteria in the prophecy. They wanted an inside guy the locals might see as legit.
 

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