Morrowind was massive decline and should be considered as such

[Harthwain]

The player was also handpicked by the Empire precisely because he met several of the criteria in the prophecy. They wanted an inside guy the locals might see as legit.

That's the irony.

 

[Shadenuat]

Even if you never get to be proclaimed Nerevarine, because you do not follow the standard path, you will still be called Nerevarine by Azura in Tribunal.

If you finished main quest you will. If not she won't. Don't you get it?

You can ignore the main story, but this in itself means nothing

What do you mean? You can ignore the prophecy yet still kill Dagoth Ur. How are you a Nerevarine if you are not Hortator and do not unite Dunmer like Azura wants?

He is able to wear the Moon-and-Star ring and not die.

So can, funny enough, any NPC it doesn't have anything special about it, unlike Wraithguard, Keening & Sunder.

 

[MWaser]

So can, funny enough, any NPC

Meaningless point to be made, since it just obviously means they didn't put in a script for that even if it were meant to be true since it's not a party game where you get to choose equipment for others.

 

[V_K]

No matter how you spin it, Morrowind's story still has nothing on Daggerfall's. No prophecies, no chosen ones - just a complicated web of political intrigues between several parties. Has some proper branching too, with several possible ways in and several endings.

 

[Shadenuat]

So can, funny enough, any NPC

Meaningless point to be made, since it just obviously means they didn't put in a script for that even if it were meant to be true since it's not a party game where you get to choose equipment for others.

It's a worthless +5 +5 artifact. It's even weaker than any other standard item in game. Its whole thing is obviously purely symbolic at this point. Just like your sword in Tribunal which is a dwemer (hated race) artifact, worn by some guard, made later to burn by alchemy.

 

[MWaser]

So can, funny enough, any NPC

Meaningless point to be made, since it just obviously means they didn't put in a script for that even if it were meant to be true since it's not a party game where you get to choose equipment for others.

It's a worthless +5 +5 artifact. It's even weaker than any other standard item in game. Its whole thing is obviously purely symbolic at this point. Just like your sword in Tribunal which is a dwemer (hated race) artifact, worn by some guard, made later to burn by alchemy.

Now you're talking as if you were the one who hadn't played the game. Moon-and-Star being purely symbolic was the entire point from the beginning - by only allowing Nerevar to wear it, it was meant to be proof of his status as an individual or the true Nerevarine. It being shitty doesn't disprove anything.

 

[MWaser]

No matter how you spin it, Morrowind's story still has nothing on Daggerfall's. No prophecies, no choisen ones - just a ruthless political fight between several parties. Has some proper branching too, with several possible ways in and several endings.

Daggerfall's story is only somewhat good at the superficial analysis level, which makes it pretty much the exact opposite of Morrowind's. Yes, at the surface Daggerfall really shines in that it is meant to be an intricate slow drive into unveiling political intrigue, but at the end of the day, you just carry out random tasks for nobles until Underking tells you where Lysandus' Tomb is, and with Medora's help you learn from an angry ghost of who the real killer was. There's some individual interesting tidbits, and some individual stupid tidbits coexisting in the midst of the main quests. But when you look at the complete picture, it's a lot more of vaguely unrelated side plots where you do random things for people until somebody gracefully tells you the next step of the story rather than functioning like an actual investigation. And then it ends on a plot to summon a giant mecha.

Morrowind being the opposite is more interesting as far as I'm concerned, because it presents itself as a simpler story, introducing a chosen one plot that you're fitting yourself into, but structuring some unique concepts around it. At face value, it's just a prophecy coming true, but there are some better aspects to look into when you consider how many of the steps turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy (ie. 4th and 5th steps only seem to matter to draw attention to the prophecy, as its end can occur without those steps ever happening even without any major fuckery - when a God's attention is caught)

 

[Shadenuat]

Now you're talking as if you were the one who hadn't played the game. Moon-and-Star being purely symbolic was the entire point from the beginning - by only allowing Nerevar to wear it, it was meant to be proof of his status as an individual or the true Nerevarine. It being shitty doesn't disprove anything.

The point of the ring was to help him unite the tribes, and the kill thing to make it so it wouldn't fall into wrong hands.

 

[V_K]

you just carry out random tasks

Which is more or less what you do through most Morrowind's main quest too.

 

[OSK]

The player was also handpicked by the Empire precisely because he met several of the criteria in the prophecy. They wanted an inside guy the locals might see as legit.

That's the irony.

If you believe that the player is the actual reincarnation of Nerevar, yes. Otherwise it's gives credibility to the idea that the player is not a reincarnation but a "fabricated" hero for an Imperial plot.

You can point out evidence for both sides of the argument. Ultimately, I don't think it matters. Is prophecy something that foretells the future? Or is it something that shapes the future? If the end result is the same, does it matter? Whether the player is inhabited by the spirit of Nerevar or only exhibiting the spirit of Nerevar, the power of prophecy is still on full display.

 

[Communist]

Morrowind. Hell, this is just a SODAMAZING game!

I don't know about you, but Morrowind was a real shock for me. I'm talking about a story quest related to Krasius Curio (you know what I'm talking about). Damn it, this game is literally sodomizing you! Who said Bioware games are too gay? At least there is a choice! He's not in Morrowind! His brown palliter literally sets you up for the worst that can happen in a straight life.

I don’t know about you, but as soon as I was faced with anal threats from Curio, I immediately went to the editor and changed the request of the aging pervert to "kick him and piss him down his throat"! This is how the rapist should!

But that was not all. When the terrible truth about the main villain was revealed, I literally made a massive conversion, removing all the gayness from the game.

That is to say, there are few games that try to rape you. Morrowind tried to do this to me. But he attacked the wrong guy! I raped Morrowind myself!

Now I'm just wondering how many straight and right-wing men have done the same thing?

 

[MWaser]

you just carry out random tasks

Which is more or less what you do through most Morrowind's main quest too.

For the first half of the plot for Caius Cosades, they really are random and almost identical to Daggerfall in that regard (although more grounded for the most part). For the 2nd half of trying to play along with the prophecy, there is a clearer structure, even if sometimes you end up fulfilling random tasks, there's a clear goal in mind, and you seek out the people to work for first - in Daggerfall the people just inform you via letters when they're ready to coincidentally divulge the next part of the related plot onto you. I'm sure you can see wherein the difference lies.

 

[janior]

I want daggerfall with handcrafted dungeons and quests

 

[Harthwain]

What do you mean? You can ignore the prophecy yet still kill Dagoth Ur. How are you a Nerevarine if you are not Hortator and do not unite Dunmer like Azura wants?

If you finished main quest you will. If not she won't. Don't you get it?

...?

Azura will refer to you as the Nerevarine, even if you haven't progressed far enough in the Morrowind main quest to be declared the Nerevarine.

If you fulfill the Morrowind Main Quest by non-standard means, such as the Back Path, you may never be declared Nerevarine. Azura will still refer to you as Nerevar in her monologue at the conclusion of the Tribunal Main Quest.

 

[MWaser]

The player was also handpicked by the Empire precisely because he met several of the criteria in the prophecy. They wanted an inside guy the locals might see as legit.

That's the irony.

If you believe that the player is the actual reincarnation of Nerevar, yes. Otherwise it's gives credibility to the idea that the player is not a reincarnation but a "fabricated" hero for an Imperial plot.

You can point out evidence for both sides of the argument. Ultimately, I don't think it matters. Is prophecy something that foretells the future? Or is it something that shapes the future? If the end result is the same, does it matter? Whether the player is inhabited by the spirit of Nerevar or only exhibiting the spirit of Nerevar, the power of prophecy is still on full display.

That's a pretty good summary in the end. The spirit of Neravar really being reborn is completely meaningless, by the end of the game you ARE the Nerevarine - not because of some reincarnation or soul travel business, but because you fulfilled the conditions of being the Nerevarine, ie. acted as Azura's tool of vengeance against the false gods as punishment for their hubris. This is why Moon-and-Star could very well be cursed and kill anyone who isn't "the Nerevarine", Azura just arbitrarily decides who can wear it or not, it was magic put upon the ring. That's the appreciable ambiguity of the plot, and a twist on the "chosen one" subplot by deconstructing the idea of what a "chosen one" is. The "false incarnates" were not always false incarnates - their deaths proved they were false incarnates because the Nerevarine wouldn't die, he would fulfill the prophecy. Azura might have just attempted many times until she suddenly got a Nerevarine that succeeded.

 

[Shadenuat]

I don't see whats random about seeking informants for Caius on cult and sixth house.

 

[Harthwain]

The "false incarnates" were not always false incarnates - their deaths proved they were false incarnates because the Nerevarine wouldn't die, he would fulfill the prophecy. Azura might have just attempted many times until she suddenly got a Nerevarine that succeeded.

I think you might be confusing "false incarnates" and "failed incarnates". Failed incarnates are failed, but they aren't false.

 

[samuraigaiden]

Again you need to replay it (assuming you did play it in the first place) and this time pay some attention to what's going on in your screen
Not only is the question of whatever or not you truly are the Neverine is left very ambiguous (and in fact there's more proof to the contrary), one the game's main themes is how the interpretation (or misinterpretation) of historical events and cultural beliefs highly affect the present reality

Maybe you should play it? Because by now it's certain you've never played it.



Azura herself calls you - the player, in case it wasn't obvious enough for you - "Nerevar Reborn. Incarnate". In the outro (the video just above yours) you're directly called "Nerevarine", also by Azura. When talking to the ghosts of the Failed Incarnates you can ask them about "not the one" (indicating there is "the one"). The player wins the game by following the prophecy, which is essentially its own confirmation that he is the chosen one (which is supposed to be the Nerevarine). There is nothing "very ambiguous" about it.

You really don't understand nuance, do you?

 

[MWaser]

I don't see whats random about seeking informants for Caius on cult and sixth house.

It was a task imposed to you by someone else, even if it did have a purpose, it doesn't immediately further any of your goals. You're not even told about the prophecy immediately in the game, only have it explained to you later. That's why it's reminiscent of Daggerfall's happenstance quests since something like getting some information about Medora Direnni from Lhotun, even though it proved meaningful afterwards, it only seemed tangentially related and the quest you did to get it was just flavor (like the quests you do for Caius' informats).

The "false incarnates" were not always false incarnates - their deaths proved they were false incarnates because the Nerevarine wouldn't die, he would fulfill the prophecy. Azura might have just attempted many times until she suddenly got a Nerevarine that succeeded.

I think you might be confusing "false incarnates" and "failed incarnates". Failed incarnates are failed, but they aren't false.

Yes, that was my bad for getting the terms mixed up. However, it's worth noting that failed incarnates are also a variety of false incarnates - proved to have been false only after dying, because the "real" Nerevarine is only the one that finishes the prophecy.

 

[Communist]

All this debate about prophecy is meaningless.
First, we have no foothold in the lore. We do not know who Neravarine was or what he really was. The lore only says that he came and went.
Everything in between is the gameplay and the individual experience of the player, who himself determines the game reality. Your whole argument is about the gaming experience, that's all.
Look, as a Nerevarine, I was and remain a proud, straight man. Who you were and who you became - I don't know. But I'm not trying to impose on everyone the opinion that the Nerevarine should be a militant straight.
Or even a man.

 

[V_K]

I want daggerfall with handcrafted dungeons and quests

Daggerfall's main quest dungeons and quests are handcrafted.

I'm sure you can see wherein the difference lies.

Not really, the same can be said of Daggerfall - in the first half of MQ you do a few random tasks for local nobles to get in their good graces, then the endgame becomes clearer. There's still a not insignificant chunk of the main quest left to play after you're told about Lysandus, not to mention the second plotline, with the letter. And even before that, Morgiah and Lhotun give you direct leads you can follow outright, while waiting or other letters to arrive.

 

[MWaser]

I'm sure you can see wherein the difference lies.

Not really, the same can be said of Daggerfall - in the first half of MQ you do a few random tasks for local nobles to get in their good graces, then the endgame becomes clearer. There's still a not insignificant chunk of the main quest left to play after you're told about Lysandus, not to mention the second plotline, with the letter.

You say that, but there is actually little arcing plotline that directly follows: for instance, Akorithi just happens to need you for something and hears of a capable dungeon dweller when you do Lhotun's quest, calls you to do her stuff. Then after you help her, Underking hears about you and happens to need you for something, which reveals the actual important information related to Lysandus' tomb. Mynisera happens to be important in the midst of it, and because it's conveniently Lhotun that tells you about it, it ties both aspects of Lysandus' questline to him - she helps you craft the dust of restful death - a minor arc with her, and even then you are the one who is summoned to her because you don't know you need it first, reducing your own agency. That's the Lysandus path of the main quest, 1/3. Learning the Tomb's location and getting the Dust, then killing Woodborne.

The one that actually is built heaviest on your own agency is the letter path - you find someone lowly in the service, get information by doing their quest, get referred to Mynisera, do her quest to learn the story of the letter, then go to Gortwog whom you learn has the letter from working with Morgiah - the first of the nobles to contact you on her own, and immediately relevant to the task you were given by the Emperor. That's the best of the paths, the letter path, only a small part of it is given to you arbitrarily.

The last "third" is just a small piece, but before the Totem part initiates, you also have to do King of Worm's quest for the Lich Soul Scarab, which doesn't really relate to either of the 2 emperor tasks but it's obligatory for the main quest anyway.

The finale is okay, although I wish the totem just suddenly disappearing was better followed up upon than just being another letter that sends you to the place where you need to follow next.

 

[NerevarineKing]

I want daggerfall with handcrafted dungeons and quests

Daggerfall's main quest dungeons and quests are handcrafted.

Technically there's a couple quests in the MQ that send you to a random dungeon, but it is overall like 90% hand-crafted.

 

[xuerebx]

Seems you need to replay it

As there is no chosen one shtick in Morrowind...

Damn, that nostalgia!

I don't agree with the thread title, but I don't care to discuss it. I guess it's nostalgia speaking, but I had way too much fun during my early teens playing Morrrowind, and also introduced me to (and enjoy) stats and numbers in games.

 

[V_K]

Mynisera happens to be important in the midst of it, and because it's conveniently Lhotun that tells you about it, it ties both aspects of Lysandus' questline to him - she helps you craft the dust of restful death - a minor arc with her, and even then you are the one who is summoned to her because you don't know you need it first, reducing your own agency.

Not quite - Lhotun tells you that Medora was Lysandus' lover, providing a direct lead to investigate. And at the end of her first quest she vaguely hints that she'll contact you later on, so it's not that she does that out of the blue.
It also progresses quite naturally in play - you investigate the leads you're given by Lhotun and Morgiah, and while you do that letters start to arrive to alert you to other branches. The only part of it that really breaks the flow is the painting quest - it's quite easy to ignore it and get stuck waiting for Underking.