Morrowind was massive decline and should be considered as such

[cvv]

I only played Morrowind once, long time ago, but I still remember liking one of the elven house questlines (racist mages or some such). Motherfuckers lived in tall houses without stairs so you had to fly to them or some shit. Those were the days when Bethesda still employed people with entertaining ideas.

Name one character from that questline without using uncle google. Characters in Morrowind were so bland I only remember Vivec because he was levitating in his sex fort.

Dude I can't remember what I played last week. Remembering shit isn't really my thing.

That's why me remembering that faction must mean I really liked it. Ofc I might see it differently if I replayed MW today but that's not gonna happen.

 

[luj1]

I'd say Morrowind is my personal favorite cRPG story of all time.

Because the world tells its own story.

 

[Justicar]

Dude I can't remember what I played last week. Remembering shit isn't really my thing.

That's why remembering me that faction must mean I really liked it. Ofc I might see it differently if I replayed MW today but that's not gonna happen.

See I have good memory but I can name only one character from Morrowind meanwhile I can name like half of the cast from Gothic 2 even though I played it like 15 years ago, know why? Dudes from Gothic had actual personality and character when npcs in morrowind had wikipedia style dialouge....

 

[cvv]

I'd say Morrowind is my personal favorite cRPG story of all time.

Because the world tells its own story.

The downside of the Old Bethesda's accent on the world and simulationism is that it doesn't exactly age well. Unlike RPGs that rely on writing (BaK) or systems (Wizardry) - those games are ugly as fuck today but still fun.

A simulationist approach heavily relies on technology tho and technology ages very fast in this business. That's why imma never reply MW because I'm p. sure what wowed me back then would be utterly lame and stale today. And all the other aspects of MW like combat, chardev or story sucked ass even back in the day.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Caius Cosades, Prince Illen Vren, Vivec, Almalexia, King Hasleth, and I played Morrowind last time ten years ago, I cant remember one NPCs from this This Obshitian new POZ though played last year... there was angry danger hair lesbian, lesbo techie.... Cool Cleaning Robot?

 

[luj1]

and everything hand-crafted.

But this counts for a lot. For all the mechanical complexity Daggerfall had over Morrowind, those randomly generated dungeons made me want to blow my brains out.

Because they represent two completely different approaches, each with its own merits. Conceptually they lie on the opposing ends of the spectrum. Anyone who directly compares them is an idiot.

 

[Sweeper]

Because they represent two completely different approaches, each with its own merits. Conceptually they lie on the opposing ends of the spectrum. Anyone who directly compares them is an idiot.

One worked a lot better than the other though.

 

[V_K]

, but I still remember liking one of the elven house questlines (racist mages or some such). Motherfuckers lived in tall houses without stairs so you had to fly to them or some shit.

...which was the only remarkable thing about that questline. Here it is in full:

Spoiler

• Stronghold: Build your House stronghold, Tel Uvirith, in three phases.

Raven Omayn's Quests, Sadrith Mora

• Muck: Retrieve five pieces of Muck for some potion making.
• Black Jinx: Find a magical ring somewhere in Sadrith Mora.

Arara Uvulas' Quests, Sadrith Mora

• Sload Soap: Retrieve five pieces of sload soap for Neloth's research.
• Staff of the Silver Dawn: Find this magical staff somewhere in Sadrith Mora.

Felisa Ulessen's Quests, Sadrith Mora

• New Clothes: Deliver a skirt to Mistress Therana in Tel Branora.
• Slave Rebellion: Put an end to the slave revolt in Abebaal Egg Mine near Tel Branora.

Baladas Demnevanni's Quests, Gnisis

• Dwemer Books: Find three rare books for Baladas in Gnisis.
• Dahrk Mezalf: Recover an ancient Dwemer ring from the ruins of Bthungthumz.

Mallam Ryon's Quests, Sadrith Mora

• Three Questions for Baladas Demnevanni: Question this scholar in Gnisis on three pivotal questions on the Dwemer.
• Mission to Nchuleft: Retrieve plans from these Dwemer ruins far west of Vos.

Galos Mathendis' Quests, Sadrith Mora

• Coded Message: Deliver a coded message to Divayth Fyr in Tel Fyr.
• Cure Blight: Deliver three Cure Blight potions to an alchemist in Tel Vos.
• Daedra Skin: Find and deliver a Daedra skin to Master Aryon in Tel Vos.

Therana's Quest, Tel Branora

• Auriel's Bow: Find the bow that smells like ash yams somewhere in Ghostgate.

Dratha's Quest, Tel Mora

• Flesh Made Whole: Retrieve this amulet from Tel Naga in Sadrith Mora.

Neloth's Quest, Tel Naga, Sadrith Mora

• Drake's Pride: Find this robe on a poor servant in Tel Aruhn.

Aryon's Quests, Tel Vos

• Baladas Demnevanni: Convince Baladas in Gnisis to join the Council.
• Mudan-Mul Egg Mine: Cure the blighted Kwama queen in this egg mine west of Tel Vos.
• Wizard Spells: Learn three spells at the request of Aryon.
• Odirniran: Help Milyn Faram, who is being attacked by House Hlaalu.
• Mages Guild Monopoly: Convince three Redoran Councilors to support a proposal to allow House Telvanni to compete with the Mages Guild.
• Shishi: Rescue Faves Andas from House Redoran forces northwest of Maar Gan.
• Recruit a Mouth: Recruit a mouth in order to be promoted to Councilor.
• Kill Raynasa Rethan: Kill this Hlaalu noble in Rethan Manor south of Balmora.
• Kill Banden Indarys: Kill a Redoran noble in his manor house.
• Archmagister Gothren: Get the support of all House Councilors to become the Archmagister.

Fast Eddie's Quests, Sadrith Mora

• Ring of Equity: Help Eddie to retrieve this magical ring from Neloth's treasury.
• Amulet of Unity: Help Eddie to retrieve this magical amulet from the mainland.

Out of 28 quests there are maybe 5 that are not straightforward fetch, deliver or kill quests with zero effort put into their design or even setup. And the 5 exceptions are also fetch quests, just slightly better framed.

 

[Jackpot]

I think a lot of people tend to overrate Morrowind by ignoring or brushing over its problems.

 

[NerevarineKing]

I think a lot of people tend to overrate Morrowind by ignoring or brushing over its problems.

I'll gladly shit on Morrowind, but it's still one of favorite gaming experiences. Sometimes games that are better designed aren't necessarily impactful and everyone has wlidly different tastes.

 

[Jackpot]

I think a lot of people tend to overrate Morrowind by ignoring or brushing over its problems.

I'll gladly shit on Morrowind, but it's still one of favorite gaming experiences. Sometimes games that are better designed aren't necessarily impactful and everyone has wlidly different tastes.

That's fair.
I'm glad that we can all be respectful of each others' varied taste in games.
Why, I'm sure even those of us that believe that Oblivion was an upgrade in most ways to Morrowind, and had a more memorable setting and story are welcome to share their opinions in this great thread!

 

[Belboz]

What's not to love, about Morrowind?

It has a more than decent plot with some peaks (anyway, better than that of the majority of the RPG), no cliche companions, a great verticality (supported by levitation); it has no spectacular cinematics in which you lose the game (such as ME3), it has a crafting that let's you produce solid equipment. Above all, its landscapes and the scenery are still unsurpassed today, because of their originality.

Maybe its quests are not the best and, if you look back in time, it's simplified, but if you look from 2002 and forth it's still one of the best.

 

[Lutte]

I'll gladly shit on Morrowind, but it's still one of favorite gaming experiences. Sometimes games that are better designed aren't necessarily impactful and everyone has wlidly different tastes.

The setting/lore is literally the only redeeming feature and one that may have been enough to push me to play most of the content till the end, yet is not enough to ever incite a desire to go back to the game once more. It's one of the few games I've played where I was motivated enough to see it to the end, yet didn't like it enough to replay it at least once a decade after or something. Because there is so much I dread about the experience. Ah, that fucking travelling system and walking speed alone.. I would have to refresh my memory reading online tips about how to quickly rebuild a character that won't make me want to throw the computer out the window if I reinstalled Morrowind. You need ways to quickly max speed stat and you need to get mark/recall/levitate asap or the game is simply unplayable. Ah, and where was that stupid dwemer box again..

 

[Deadyawn]

Like the whole faction system - a p. big part of the game. Progressing within your chosen faction is all about grinding procedurally generated quests and dungeons. I even think that's what ultimately broke me.

You'd have a point here if faction quests in MW were any good. They're not. They're neither more creative, nor more detailed than DF's procedural quests. The only difference is that you can't repeat them. I would even argue that DF's procedural setups are more varied than MW's handcrafted ones.

Only sort of true. While most quests in Morrowind aren't more mechanically complex than those in DF, the fact that they are hand-placed means they are a lot more grounded in the context in which they occur. Quests in House Hlaalu might not involve much more than persuade this person, kill this guy or steal this thing (even then it sometimes offers alternative solutions); but they ilustrate to the player what the faction is all about, their place in the political map and their relation with other factions. In short, it fleshes them out.

Then you get the more outstanding moments. The first Tribunal quest, for example, has you moving through half the island on a pilgrimage to each of the shrines, which in gameplay terms it really boils down to going to a place and touching a thing, but in context it is teaching you the values that the temple upholds by emulating the actions of one of their deities.

By contrast, do you know what are the two differences between questing for the Temple of Kynareth or the School of Julianos besides their one (still radiant) temple specific quest? Jack and Shit. But hey, at least they are repeatable!

 

[NerevarineKing]

I'll gladly shit on Morrowind, but it's still one of favorite gaming experiences. Sometimes games that are better designed aren't necessarily impactful and everyone has wlidly different tastes.

The setting/lore is literally the only redeeming feature and one that may have been enough to push me to play most of the content till the end, yet is not enough to ever incite a desire to go back to the game once more. It's one of the few games I've played where I was motivated enough to see it to the end, yet didn't like it enough to replay it at least once a decade after or something. Because there is so much I dread about the experience. Ah, that fucking travelling system and walking speed alone.. I would have to refresh my memory reading online tips about how to quickly rebuild a character that won't make me want to throw the computer out the window if I reinstalled Morrowind. You need ways to quickly max speed stat and you need to get mark/recall/levitate asap or the game is simply unplayable. Ah, and where was that stupid dwemer box again..

Try playing Daggerfall without mark/recall/levitate or with a shitty build. If you've played the first two ES games, Morrowind is barely an issue.

 

[V_K]

Only sort of true. While most quests in Morrowind aren't more mechanically complex than those in DF, the fact that they are hand-placed means they are a lot more grounded in the context in which they occur. Quests in House Hlaalu might not involve much more than persuade this person, kill this guy or steal this thing (even then it sometimes offers alternative solutions); but they ilustrate to the player what the faction is all about, their place in the political map and their relation with other factions. In short, it fleshes them out.

Meh. It's story vs. gameplay debate all over again. Couldn't care less about window dressing if actually doing the quest feels like a chore. Conversely, while most quests in DF are paper thin excuses to send you dungeon crawling - it doesn't matter because dungeon crawling itself is fun DF, even in the procedural dungeons. Unlike MW.

 

[MWaser]

I think a lot of people tend to overrate Morrowind by ignoring or brushing over its problems.

Honestly this is such a meaningless claim to make - you can say this about every other game: people enjoy it and rate it highly because they brush over or ignore its problems. Why do they ignore a game's problems? Because it redeems them, plainly.

Obviously, every game has issues. Some have more, some have less, some issues being more glaring than others. Many of these issues being purely subjective, of what one may claim is ruining the game may enhance it for another, but yet there will always be at least some remotely objective ones (objective in this sense, aside from strictly technical issues that have no redeeming values, would be aspects that are considered problematic and/or inferior/improper even by people who generally favor the game, ie. the target audience).

What matters is how individual aspects of the game end up being interpreted and remembered by the people who played it: There's the concurrent perception aspect, of how you feel directly when playing the game, and a retrospective perception of things you noticed and thought of it afterwards, when not playing it. In an RPG, an aspect like combat, can be viewed as one of the significant chunks of "gameplay". You can divide it into its strategic, tactical, action aspect from a purely deconstructive mental point of view, and then recognize that it also applies immediate perceptive bias to the concurrent perceptions even with aspects like presentation and visuals of it. If the action combat is lackluster, unresponsive, it might not necessarily taint the whole aspect permanently negative: a game can make up by having alternate options, or by redeeming its strategic and tactical aspects. And then the strategic aspects of it can tie in well to a game's exploration aspect, or character building aspect. It's all part of a larger piece of a cohesive combination, and not just a count of individual "good" and "bad" things that the game offers.

The end perception of the experience lies then on the sum and combination of its aspects: People will downplay issues in terms of importance, while still acknowledging their existence, because they didn't undo the game's overall enjoyment either in concurrent or retrospective perspectives. And if you sum up all the aspects of it together, a person may "overrate" it (a purely subjective claim) by not paying attention to issues that some would see as "glaring" - not because they are ignorant of it, in a fanboy-ish way simply pretending to not acknowledge the existence of therein, but rather because to them, they didn't affect the entire experience. And when the entire experience has been rated overall positive on all or most aspects, the final rating will be high. This is just how rating things works.

 

[cvv]

I think a lot of people tend to overrate Morrowind by ignoring or brushing over its problems.

Honestly this is such a meaningless claim to make - you can say this about every other game

This.

Great games aren't great because they don't have flaws. They're great because they're doing a couple of things so good people don't even mind the flaws.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Honestly this is such a meaningless claim to make - you can say this about every other game: people enjoy it and rate it highly because they brush over or ignore its problems. Why do they ignore a game's problems? Because it redeems them, plainly.

No, they also do it for nostalgia. It's been nearly 20 years since it was released. And it gained much of its notoriety from its console release, which was played by many kids with zero taste and little prior experience with crpgs, let alone Daggerfall.

Speaking of wastes of time, you just spent 4 paragraphs to say "it's good for what it is".

 

[Vormulak]

Honestly this is such a meaningless claim to make - you can say this about every other game: people enjoy it and rate it highly because they brush over or ignore its problems. Why do they ignore a game's problems? Because it redeems them, plainly.

No, they also do it for nostalgia. It's been nearly 20 years since it was released. And it gained much of its notoriety from its console release, which was played by many kids with zero taste and little prior experience with crpgs, let alone Daggerfall.

Speaking of wastes of time, you just spent 4 paragraphs to say "it's good for what it is".

Morrowind isn't even an rpg, its an open world adventure game, it is indeed highly overrated.

 

[NerevarineKing]

Honestly this is such a meaningless claim to make - you can say this about every other game: people enjoy it and rate it highly because they brush over or ignore its problems. Why do they ignore a game's problems? Because it redeems them, plainly.

No, they also do it for nostalgia. It's been nearly 20 years since it was released. And it gained much of its notoriety from its console release, which was played by many kids with zero taste and little prior experience with crpgs, let alone Daggerfall.

Speaking of wastes of time, you just spent 4 paragraphs to say "it's good for what it is".

Daggerfall is a buggy piece of shit that has a lot of the same issues Morrowind has, but people also love it too (myself included). Every game Bethsoft has made has been extremely flawed and everybody is going to have their favorites based on their own personal taste. If you want to chock it up to "those kids with bad taste" than that's your prerogative.

 

[Funposter]

"people only like morrowind because of nostalgic reasons because they are xbox kiddies."

"btw daggerfall is a PERFECT game"

 

[Deadyawn]

Meh. It's story vs. gameplay debate all over again. Couldn't care less about window dressing if actually doing the quest feels like a chore.

But see, it's not just window dressing. It informs what kind of quest you'll get, where that quest will take place (no Hlaalu quest takes you to a Dwemer ruin, for example), what sort of enemies, if any, you'll face (Great Houses usually involves another House, while Tribunal Temple is mostly combating Daedric influences), if there are alternative solutions to the problem and what sort of reward you get (Hlaalu, who are all about bussiness, rewards you with gold. Redoran, mainly concerned with honor and piety, usually won't reward you at all). It's not story vs gameplay, it's story AND gameplay.

Daggerfall also does this to a certain extent, but they feel a lot more formulaic, which they are, being radiant and all. I really can't see how someone could argue DF has more creative/detailed quests when by design they can't break from the mould they are generated from.

Conversely, while most quests in DF are paper thin excuses to send you dungeon crawling - it doesn't matter because dungeon crawling itself is fun DF, even in the procedural dungeons. Unlike MW.

No argument here, since it's about personal taste. Myself, I quite enjoy how massive DF's dungeons can be, getting lost and feeling like a little mouse in a giant maze full of danger. Surviving and getting out to be greeted with a forest as far as the eye can see (Unity) is downright enchanting. The problem is that by the fifth it's just tedious, really.

I prefer Morrowind's because, while they are a lot smaller and a lot less complex (no secret doors, less trap variety), they have an actual thought out layout, enemy placement and loot placement (items can lay about instead of being exclusively in containers). The good ones at least, most of them are pure filler. Also, the lack of fast travel places importance on the actual location of the dungeon, so the act of dungeoneering becomes both a matter of journey and destination.

 

[Jackpot]

I think a lot of people tend to overrate Morrowind by ignoring or brushing over its problems.

Honestly this is such a meaningless claim to make - you can say this about every other game: people enjoy it and rate it highly because they brush over or ignore its problems. Why do they ignore a game's problems? Because it redeems them, plainly.

Obviously, every game has issues. Some have more, some have less, some issues being more glaring than others. Many of these issues being purely subjective, of what one may claim is ruining the game may enhance it for another, but yet there will always be at least some remotely objective ones (objective in this sense, aside from strictly technical issues that have no redeeming values, would be aspects that are considered problematic and/or inferior/improper even by people who generally favor the game, ie. the target audience).

What matters is how individual aspects of the game end up being interpreted and remembered by the people who played it: There's the concurrent perception aspect, of how you feel directly when playing the game, and a retrospective perception of things you noticed and thought of it afterwards, when not playing it. In an RPG, an aspect like combat, can be viewed as one of the significant chunks of "gameplay". You can divide it into its strategic, tactical, action aspect from a purely deconstructive mental point of view, and then recognize that it also applies immediate perceptive bias to the concurrent perceptions even with aspects like presentation and visuals of it. If the action combat is lackluster, unresponsive, it might not necessarily taint the whole aspect permanently negative: a game can make up by having alternate options, or by redeeming its strategic and tactical aspects. And then the strategic aspects of it can tie in well to a game's exploration aspect, or character building aspect. It's all part of a larger piece of a cohesive combination, and not just a count of individual "good" and "bad" things that the game offers.

The end perception of the experience lies then on the sum and combination of its aspects: People will downplay issues in terms of importance, while still acknowledging their existence, because they didn't undo the game's overall enjoyment either in concurrent or retrospective perspectives. And if you sum up all the aspects of it together, a person may "overrate" it (a purely subjective claim) by not paying attention to issues that some would see as "glaring" - not because they are ignorant of it, in a fanboy-ish way simply pretending to not acknowledge the existence of therein, but rather because to them, they didn't affect the entire experience. And when the entire experience has been rated overall positive on all or most aspects, the final rating will be high. This is just how rating things works.

Okay? I guess my point was that I believe that Morrowind's issues affect the entire experience more than a lot of people make them out to.
A lot of the problems in the game become much less severe once you're aware of them and the ways to avoid them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
The game being "overrated" is just my opinion, and that doesn't really have any meaning beyond just being a statement.
I mean, that's what all 'rating' is. Most of the general population would rate Skyrim or even Oblivion much higher than Morrowind because they value different things than fans of Morrowind.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Daggerfall is a buggy piece of shit that has a lot of the same issues Morrowind has, but people also love it too (myself included).

For the time, it was superb. Morrowind was bad precisely because it replicated the flaws of a game released 8 years prior and dumbed it down to boot.

Daggerfall tried to expand the genre, Morrowind and Oblivion both took that vision, threw it in the garbage and then turned it into console schlock - with Oblivion being the worse sinner in that regard.

Every game Bethsoft has made has been extremely flawed and everybody is going to have their favorites based on their own personal taste. If you want to chock it up to "those kids with bad taste" than that's your prerogative.

1996 Bethsoft is a lot different from Todd Howard's Bethsoft, but if you want to ignore that he's an uncreative liar who has shipped the same crappy, buggy games using the same garbage engine for almost two decades, that's your prerogative.