Morrowind was massive decline and should be considered as such

[NerevarineKing]

Daggerfall is a buggy piece of shit that has a lot of the same issues Morrowind has, but people also love it too (myself included).

For the time, it was superb. Morrowind was bad precisely because it replicated the flaws of a game released 8 years prior and dumbed it down to boot.

Daggerfall tried to expand the genre, Morrowind and Oblivion both took that vision, threw it in the garbage and then turned it into console schlock - with Oblivion being the worse sinner in that regard.

Every game Bethsoft has made has been extremely flawed and everybody is going to have their favorites based on their own personal taste. If you want to chock it up to "those kids with bad taste" than that's your prerogative.

1996 Bethsoft is a lot different from Todd Howard's Bethsoft, but if you want to ignore that he's an uncreative liar who has shipped the same crappy, buggy games using the same garbage engine for almost two decades, that's your prerogative.

Doesn't that also mean Daggerfall is bad because it repeated the same mistakes as Arena? Arena was also a buggy piece of shit and people still bought Daggerfall. Here's some people from the 90s talking shit about Daggerfall. https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg/c/trmU1bcczww?pli=1

Also, there were plenty of games in the 90s that weren't as buggy as Daggerfall. Bethsoft were shitty in the 90s and they're shitty now.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

Morrowind and Oblivion both took that vision

Only a fool would lump those games together.

 

[cretin]

morrowind is easily the most overrated game of all time

 

[MWaser]

Speaking of wastes of time, you just spent 4 paragraphs to say "it's good for what it is".

No, I wrote 4 paragraphs to make a point to deconstruct a timeless repetition of meaningless garbage that shows up all the time in the threads for this and any other game. Once again, "it's good what what it is" is a generic dismissive claim. I'm against dismissive claims, aside from comedic purposes, regardless if it's something I agree or disagree with.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Doesn't that also mean Daggerfall is bad because it repeated the same mistakes as Arena?

Daggerfall was released two years after Arena and it was a sequel that expanded the game.

And yes, it was a very similar game, but notice that 2 years is slightly different than 20. Todd has had nearly 20 years of releasing Morrowind with/without guns, and each game usually gets more dumbed down.

Also, there were plenty of games in the 90s that weren't as buggy as Daggerfall. Bethsoft were shitty in the 90s and they're shitty now.

That's a pretty stupid argument. Computer programs have bugs and a dev releasing a buggy game is usually more to do with a lack of budget/time for polish than a lack of talent or artistry in design. For example, Troika's infamously buggy gems.

What I'm talking about with modern Bethesda isn't about bugs, it's about poor design choices that are made on purpose and not a bug. Lying about features is not a substitute for genuine vision in game design.

Daggerfall didn't have to lie about the size of its world the way Todd did about Radiant AI. It really was huge. It really had as many dungeons as it said it did. Because its designers had real vision and passion, and they had the skill to actually implement their vision to some degree, even with the limitations of the era. And what did Todd call it? "Procedural crap." And then we got lies about the quest systems, with the Fargoth quest being sold as a typical quest, when it was really one of the most complexly scripted quests in the game. Or lies about cutscenes for the Vivec gondolas or the silt striders.

I don't need to see what other people were saying back then because I played Daggerfall before Morrowind, and I was disappointed in Morrowind when it came out. The world while inventive in its lore and some of its art, felt otherwise lifeless and small. The dialog was still terrible, in spite of being done by hand. As was the quest design - almost nothing but fetch quests. We were promised a "handcrafted" game, but instead we got all the negatives of procedural design and wiki dialog in a smaller world.

Only a fool would lump those games together.

Only a fool wouldn't.

 

[Funposter]

morrowind is easily the most overrated game of all time

The Witcher 3

 

[Harthwain]

morrowind is easily the most overrated game of all time

The Witcher 3

Mass Effect 1.

 

[MWaser]

uh... Skyrim?

 

[Funposter]

uh... Skyrim?

Skyrim sold massively but even normies have had some backlash against it after Fallout 4 and especially 76, so I think opinions on it are relatively balanced now.

 

[JDR13]

Some people just trying to be edgy here. There are games that are far more overrated than Morrowind or TW3.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Some people just trying to be edgy here. There are games that are far more overrated than Morrowind or TW3.

Yes, and Oblivion was more overrated and a far worse game than either of them.

It doesn't negate the fact that Morrowind is overrated though.

 

[Funposter]

Some people just trying to be edgy here. There are games that are far more overrated than Morrowind or TW3.

TW3 and Morrowind actually got the most downvotes in 'Codex Top 100 with Downvotes' thread. The difference is that Morrowind stayed in the top 10 (just) while TW3 dropped like 30 places.

. There are games that are far more overrated than Morrowind or TW3.

Which ones?

Fallout 2

 

[Drowed]

Literally every game on Codex's list of best RPGs has been called overrated here more than once. There are only two kinds of games in the world: the ones you like, and the ones that are overrated or plain shit. That's essentially how it works. The truth is that if you like what a game offers, you can forgive whatever flaws it may have. The more you like these specific features (or the more of them you find), the more tolerant you become to everything else.

Saying that a game "pushed barriers," "was original," "tried to expand the genre"... This is all garbage. You don't buy a hamburger because it tried to be "original," unless you have some problem in your head. You buy it because it tastes good (or because you are hungry and it is all you can afford at the moment). You can admire what the creator of the thing was trying to do, but in the end, it is the end result that matters. Yeah, trying to create a huge world based on procedural generation was something groundbreaking and "kinda" never done again in an RPG to the same extent, probably because the result was the most empty, generic, tasteless and dull world ever created by human beings - in a way, Daggerfall was the first No Man's Sky. Instead of a quintillion planets, you have tens of thousands of NPCs and thousands of buildings - you have a giant world, but it is a giant gray blob of nothingness, which ends up being the end result of every big world created that way. Conversations with 99.95% of the NPCs are literally generic, as are all the houses, taverns, guilds, and quests you encounter. After seeing the first tavern, you have essentially seen every tavern in the game.

And that said, many people love the game. The fact that it is a huge, open world that allows you to follow the story in your own way and at your own pace. The fact that the two main quests are essentially one big investigation where you gradually discover more about the setting of the world. The fact that it has one of the most complete character creation systems in the entire series, with a magic creation system. For people who admire these features, everything else becomes irrelevant, everything is just background noise for the important points that make the game shine. Daggerfall is the ideal game for the type of player who likes to create their own stories in their mind and fill the world that way, it is perhaps the most "open" RPG you can ever find, a true sandbox in a way. It is closer to the experience of playing something like Dwarf Fortress than Fallout, for example.

And it is also extremely boring. But hey, everything is boring and everything is shit. Unless you like it.

 

[luj1]

I see a lot of idiots so let me say this.

Despite whatever you may think, Morrowind is:

- their only game produced without help of algorithms
- their only game where everything is hand-placed
- their only game where they had to develop deep folklore (instead of going with Nordic/European BS)
- their only game with no level scaling
- their only game with no respawning enemies
- their only game with a distinctive art direction (not prettier or uglier, just distinctive)
- their last PC game (wasn't crippled by porting it from consoles)
- second-best toolset (after CK)
- cohesive, authentic world due to many educated (before there were videogame courses) writers on board

So no, the worldbuilding is not the only good thing about it. This has nothing to do with taste either; there are OBJECTIVE reasons (listed above) why Morrowind is consistently in Codex Top 10.

 

[markec]

- their only game with no level scaling
- their only game with no respawning enemies
-

The game had respawning enemies and level scaling although it wasnt as nearly intrusive as in Oblivion.

 

[Justicar]

- their only game with no level scaling
- their only game with no respawning enemies

Sure thing nigger problem is if you bothered to check their modding tools you would know that enemies respawn and there is lvl scaling.

- their last PC game (wasn't crippled by porting it from consoles)

- their only game with a distinctive art direction (not prettier or uglier, just distinctive)

DISTINCT

 

[JDR13]

. There are games that are far more overrated than Morrowind or TW3.

Which ones?

All the ones you like.

 

[Funposter]

- their only game with no level scaling
- their only game with no respawning enemies
-

The game had respawning enemies and level scaling although it wasnt as nearly intrusive as in Oblivion.

It does make use of levelled lists but no enemies scale their stats with the player and the loot is only minimally affected. The biggest different between Level 1 and 20 in regards to loot is that you find better scrolls and soul gems. A distinction for the enemies spawning from levelled lists would also be that while this does mean stronger enemies become more common at higher level, this does not negate the spawning of weaker enemies ala Oblivion. You can still find Rats and Kwama Foragers at Level 20. The other distinction is that I'm almost entirely sure that all stronger enemies have a static spawn somewhere in the world, like the Golden Saint in Ibar-Dad for example.

As for respawning enemies, it's fair to say that he was obviously referring to the hundreds of unique, named bandits, daedric cultists, etc. and not to the wildlife spawning in the wilderness.

 

[Sweeper]

As for respawning enemies, it's fair to say that he was obviously referring to the hundreds of unique, named bandits, daedric cultists, etc. and not to the wildlife spawning in the wilderness.

Daedra respawn in the dungeons as well IIRC. And then there's the cliff racers, the respawning was more of a problem in Morrowind than in Oblivion tbh.

 

[Funposter]

As for respawning enemies, it's fair to say that he was obviously referring to the hundreds of unique, named bandits, daedric cultists, etc. and not to the wildlife spawning in the wilderness.

Daedra respawn in the dungeons as well IIRC. And then there's the cliff racers, the respawning was more of a problem in Morrowind than in Oblivion tbh.

Daedra respawn at shrines because they're generated through levelled lists (except for the ones that aren't). Cliff Racers are annoying but nothing compared to being molested by Mountain Lions every 20 steps in Oblivion's mid-game. I suppose the distinction here is that in Oblivion and Skyrim, a bandit camp designed to harass travellers on the road will never be truly conquered by the player since those bandits will respawn in 72 hours. In Morrowind, those bandits are gone forever once the player kills them.

 

[Sweeper]

Daedra respawn at shrines because they're generated through levelled lists (except for the ones that aren't). Cliff Racers are annoying but nothing compared to being molested by Mountain Lions every 20 steps in Oblivion's mid-game. I suppose the distinction here is that in Oblivion and Skyrim, a bandit camp designed to harass travellers on the road will never be truly conquered by the player since those bandits will respawn in 72 hours. In Morrowind, those bandits are gone forever once the player kills them.

There's nothing wrong with level scaling, or respawning enemies. I power leveled my way through Morrowind, and by the time I got to doing the main quest I was bored out of my mind.
"Well just don't power level then, dumb-dumb"
Listen, the game lets me break it, you can't expect me to not do it. It's what I do. The moment I got my Daedric Tower Shield enchanted with a destruction spell it was game over basically, and I got it before even talking to Caius Cosaides.
Oblivion, not so much. Not only does it force you to efficiently level (unless you want to have your rectum rearranged later on), but the level scaling means the enemies you face can still remain a threat 100s of hours into it.

 

[Funposter]

If you love Oblivion's "challenging" health sponge enemies, you should try Morrowind's expansions.

 

[NerevarineKing]

- their only game with no level scaling
- their only game with no respawning enemies

Sure thing nigger problem is if you bothered to check their modding tools you would know that enemies respawn and there is lvl scaling.

- their last PC game (wasn't crippled by porting it from consoles)

- their only game with a distinctive art direction (not prettier or uglier, just distinctive)

DISTINCT

I think the point they were making is that the PC version came out first and the Xbox port didn't really affect the PC version. I mean have you seen the fucking menu/UI for Morrowind? There's no way in hell that was designed for consoles in mind.

 

[Sweeper]

If you love Oblivion's "challenging" health sponge enemies, you should try Morrowind's expansions.

Didn't say challenging, I said they remain a threat, which they do.

Health sponge enemies don't exist in Morrowind, but I'd rather have health sponges than having enemies that don't even register as anything.... cause they're dead as soon as I see them.

 

[Funposter]

iirc magnitude of more than 100 isn't possible in vanilla so you're only able to do that because of mods lol