Move jRPG above ALL ELSE on the main board

[StaticSpine]

Bruh, Yakuza: Like a Dragon.

Is that game actually good? I saw some videos of it and it looked funny with how it tries to tell a modern day story with fantasy RPG mechanics, but it seemed more like a joke game, kinda like the South Park RPG and not very deep mechanically.

The whole Dragon Quest reference thing is weird, but overall the game is amazing story- and systems-wise. It's not a meme game.

 

[downwardspiral]

I feel the strength of western games is in the not so profitable doujin(indie) games. Like trad roguelike, if that count as RPGs.
Or those very detailed tactical sim and wargames.
Wargame is partially the ancestor of western RPGs, but they eventually turn them into a simplified story RPG games.
A bit like what Japan done to western RPGs in their console JRPGs.

And maybe sandbox building games, Japan used to have game like Panekit on PS1. The dev later made rigidchips.
It is something that Japanese players would like judging how many Japanese players I met playing games like space engineering, from the depths and stormworks.
However they never make another attempt at that genre.

The strength of western games is in the sandbox, physic simulation, wargames and combatfag RPGs.
Story/cinematic focused western games aren't really their best, but that is probably my personal bias with story.
It might be weird for me to say this, but I don't feel modern popular western games are very western. Like new XCOM it reminds me something i played on Japanese console but with western cartoon art style.
It is a bit like how I felt when I first played panzer general, it felt like something from Japan and it partially is, not the west. And it is not really the best of the west.
When the western games start to become more cartoony, arcade and story focus.
It is when I rather play Japanese games.

But of course that is only my personal bias.

 

[Ventidius]

...

Thanks for the very informative write up.

The reason I wanted to exclude Japanese dungeon crawlers is because I know that the sub-genre is in a good place and there are not many equivalent games from the west to compare them to. Who the fuck even makes western dungeon crawlers any more apart from Cleve? Also I usually distance them from JRPGs because if you take out the anime graphics, they're to some extent Wizardry clones and Wizardry is a western game. When I think JRPGs I think stuff like Final Fantasy - per-defined party characters, lots of focus on story and lore other than just killing and looting shit, etc.

I get where you are coming from. It does seem to me, though, that since what we are discussing here is games (or RPGs) made in Japan generally and the state of the market in both regions, Japanese Wiz-likes would certainly be quite relevant to the discussion. To be fair, this can often be ambiguous due to the multiple meanings that both terms, "jRPG" and "Japanese RPG", can have (e.g. RPG made in Japan/by Japanese devs or Final Fantasy-like).

Also, the question of whether Wizardry-likes are 'Western' is tricky. After all, the West did invent RPGs, so in that sense early Japanese games, since they took a lot of inspiration from Wizardry and Ultima, were not that different from Western ones until FF4 came out and established a new RPG paradigm that was then widely imitated in Japan (though it was never the only paradigm there, and Wiz-likes survived). The thing is, the West moved on from Wizardry: Fallout et al established a new paradigm in the West in which so-called C&C, heavy simulationist elements, and often a gritty aesthetic came to the fore. The Wizardry franchise itself received a heavy overhaul at the hands of DW Bradley. The West would then later move into another paradigm, the much reviled 'modern' state of affairs centered around Action RPGs, cinematic games, and open world design. Thus, a state of affairs came into being in which, as you say, almost no one even makes these sorts of games (like Wizardry 1-5) in the West anymore.

In that context, one has to wonder if there is much of a point in emphasizing the 'Westerness' of Japanese Wiz-likes since, by now, even Wizardries 1 to 5 (the ones that inspire Japan) are as alien to the sensibilities of the current Western audience (including late 90s veterans) as, say, Final Fantasy 9. Even the Wizardry fans in the Codex (a niche within a niche within a niche) are much more likely to be into 6-8 than into 1-5. It's also worth noting that Japanese Wiz-likes are not really straight up clones of Wiz 1, as a common meme suggests, or even of each other. Each of the dungeon crawlers I mentioned before has its quirks, refinements, and adaptations, and even Elminage Original and Gothic are very different from each other. Of course, they all do belong in the same subgenre, which comes with plenty of overarching similarities.

Perhaps this all just amounts to a nitpick, but it's something IMO worth keeping in mind.

 

[aweigh]

oh also don't forget the SaGa games. they put western crap to shame.

the best RPG I played in the last 5 years was the PC port of the remaster for Romancing Saga 2.

 

[Tyranicon]

So my hooker RPG is currently quarantined here in the JRPG subforum.

 

[Malamert]

Remove all WRPGs from the premises. JRPG supremacy now.

 

[Rean]

Pathfinder: Kingmaker doesn't hold a candle to Legend of Heroes.

Really? Tell me more about it.

Refer to my previous post

 

[Tyranicon]

I'm probably gonna get shouted out, but I think the main problem with JRPGs is a lack of agency/narrative choice/c&c in most titles along with a preference towards premade protagonists as opposed to player-created protags. These are the traditional strong points of western RPGs.

The second that JRPGs start succeeding at these two issues, then western-made RPGs are done.

 

[aweigh]

I'm probably gonna get shouted out, but I think the main problem with JRPGs is a lack of agency/narrative choice/c&c in most titles along with a preference towards premade protagonists as opposed to player-created protags. These are the traditional strong points of western RPGs.

The second that JRPGs start succeeding at these two issues, then western-made RPGs are done.

So-called "c&c" meme has nothing to do with RPGs. It's a bullshit storyfag concept cobbled together from adventure game nostalgia designed to dismantle the fundamental gameplay hierarchies and it has little to do with the quality of RPG gameplay.

Agency and choice are found in gameplay, not dialog or branching nodes. There is more "c&c" in Wizardry than in any modern western game.

 

[Reinhardt]

Only saving grace of

player-created protags

is build porn, not those mythical "c&c". For each one somewhat decent game with c&c we got hundred of games where no matter what you chose - good, evul or many grown up gray - result is "your character is a drooling retard".

 

[AdamReith]

I'd definitely be inclined to agree, western RPGs have standout games that were pretty much flashes in the pan. The second a team struck gold it seems they were acquired or shut down in some way other than a few exceptions.

I can pick a Japanese RPG almost at random and expect a certain level of quality you just won't find in 99% of Western releases. Even those shitty porn games have more artistic merit and effort put into them than what we get.

Also this indie obsession with soulless content generation by algorithm and complete absence of a story is kind of pathetic, I understand why they do it but I don't know how people enjoy these things for longer than ten minutes.

Also fuck Kingmaker. Even without the poz it's boring and uninspired.

 

[Machocruz]

Can't agree until JRPGs start giving rogues something to do outside of steal in battle.

 

[downwardspiral]

Story focus C&C seems to be more of a 90s WRPG thing.

In Japanese gaming term, story focus western c&c just translate to "flag".
It is not really creating a sandbox environment with many variables to simulate organic C&C but just a handcraft if&else flag to create the illusion of freedom.
I am not oppositing that illusion.
But Japanese isn't particular bad at maknig pure flag game.
They just don't mix it with dilute/streamlined wargame mechanics much.

But as a player who grew up with goldbox RPGs and PC-98 and console JRPG and who see things in more of an oriental way. What really differentiate west from Japan is that Western RPGs tend to have a more sandbox elements to it.
For example, even in highly story focus c&c game such as arcanum, there are city and people that work in daytime and sleep in night time. They do things regardless player's agency.
And player can "Interrupt" their life by destroying their store or steeling it.

In game like JA2, you can destroy wall to break through a building.
The wall is fundamentally a flag but the game did not expecting you to go through a very narrowed range of flag flows.
So it just feel less restrictive compare to the typical flag focus games.

It is why Asians players love fallout 3 4 and skyrim.
Because despite being inferior to daggerfall in so many ways as a sandbox game,
It did have a very basic form of sandbox. It just lack the complex variables to make it chaotic, organic and interesting.
Where western players grew up with late 90s c&c RPGs will think it lack both c&c and sandbox elements.
And mostly lack of specific "RPGs system" like attribute which I don't think is necessary good for a pure sandbox game.
Because they aren't complex enough to reflect many variables in a pure sandbox world.


It is a bit like how dynamic campaign vs flag based chained scenario campaign in wargames.
They have their pro and con. I personally prefer dynamic campaign most of the time.

In 80s to 90s western games design seems to be towards the dynamic campaign design.
Like Wing commander. But once those directors became famous, they all want to be hollywood big name.
And design their game very narrowly for cenematic story handcrafted experience.
Not sandbox dynamic experience with organic variables to create chaotic experience.

It is the same with WRPGs, they have more dynamic sandbox elements, but once they get big.
They start to focus more on the story experience. It becomes more and more handcrafted and more and more "flags".
And they aren't as good as handcrafting things as Japanese, but ofc I am biased to like Japanese art/story more by default.

From my perspective, WRPGs is declining because they become more like Japanese but a downgraded one.
And most of the western sandbox elements in WRPGs already moved to other genre.

Can't agree until JRPGs start giving rogues something to do outside of steal in battle.

If you count Elona and lunatic dawn as JRPG.

 

[Sjukob]

Refer to my previous post

That's a very vague answer. Best rpg combat system? Ok, what does it play like? Incredible storytelling? Any examples? What about exploration, is it good? I assume you play premade characters, are there any build options?

I could go on, because you haven't said anything meaningful.

 

[Reinhardt]

I could go on, because you haven't said anything meaningful.

Don't know about cold steel but in their previous trilogy you are forced to constantly shuffle characters and equipment to adapt to enemies strengths and weaknesses. Final fight is for example forces you to use ALL your characters in 4 different boss fights instead of just stomping everything with alpha-team with best equip all the time.

 

[Rean]

Refer to my previous post

That's a very vague answer. Best rpg combat system? Ok, what does it play like? Incredible storytelling? Any examples? What about exploration, is it good? I assume you play premade characters, are there any build options?

I could go on, because you haven't said anything meaningful.

Ah, I see. You want me to post a multi-paragraph detailed review of every single aspect of a game series with an average playtime of over 100 hours each just for your benefit because you're too lazy to watch a video or torrent the games and all because you said the magic words 'tell me more'.
It's been days already so if you had any interest, it'd be obvious, at which point I would potentially show some interest back and write up more for your benefit. But at this point the sales pitch is over, fuck off. Starve yourself of the best game series for all I care.

 

[Sjukob]

You expect me to talk on a forum? Fuck off.

'K.

 

[Machocruz]

If you count Elona and lunatic dawn as JRPG.

Sure, why not. Roguelikes are where the real RPG action is imo, and Elona is one of the more impressive ones I've played. Never played Lunatic Dawn, but it looks like whoever made it actually knows the genre outside of other video games.

 

[Carpincho Pampeano]

I actually grew up playing western games in general, not only RPGs but also shooters and platformers but around the seventh generation western games became obsessed with multiplayer shooters and brown filters on everything also AA gaming studios completely disapeared from the industry or got bought by bigger studios (see EA with Bioware), games became bigger and bigger in their budget, becoming safer and safer.

Japan never stopped having AA studios, and even relatively big studios like Atlus still have teams making niche games like Etrian Odyssey series or even studios completely dedicated to dungeon crawlers like Experience Inc.
TLDR Western games play it too safe because they are afraid of loosing millions meanwhile japanese games can take more risk because of their smaller budget.

 

[Reinhardt]

or even studios completely dedicated to dungeon crawlers like Experience Inc.

Reminder that THIS is japanese developers -

These motherfuckers are sipping cognac while talking about cute girls and dungeon crawlers. Where can I apply for Experience Inc?

That's how games should be made, not by listening to diversity kommissar.

 

[downwardspiral]

That's how games should be made, not by listening to diversity kommissar.

One thing I notice is that Japan despite lack of obvious gate keeping and elitism going on.
They have a much stronger audience/genre segregation.
Can you even classify an entire genre based on it's audience sex?
Like the game publisher saying "this game is designed for women" casually?
Or official stuff saying things like men should play this game?
Saying that in the west seems like a big trouble.

Even games that is predominantly played by men.
Sport.
Racing.
FPS
RTS
Wargames.
People act like "stop stereotyping, there are women playing"
Yeah there are more tranies in those games than real women.

Japan put all those diversity people into their respective camp like fujoshi and similar genre.
So they won't bother the rest much.

The west have a very strong desire to include all focus and audience into one genre. Once the genre or company become somewhat not niche anymore.
Only the extreme niche games in the west can dodge this because nobody care about them.

 

[Zed]

Moved to site feedback.

We will take this into serious consideration.

Not even sure OP can see this thread any longer.

Well. Such is the fate of creating bait title threads.

 

[Maxie]

if your game doesn't have cute girls with nice boobs and bubbly personalities then you're a stuck up twerp and your game sucks

 

[Ol' Willy]

Western RPGs are in decline now, true.

JapRPGs are such a horrendous pile of infected diarrhea that you can't even say, is it decline or incline there.

 

[Reinhardt]

Western RPGs