My collected criticism on Pillars of Eternity (very minor spoilers)

[Grunker]

Are you really unaware of the levels of ignorance here? :/

The difference between a bandit and a hobgoblin is almost nothing. They are nearly identical. Meanwhile, the difference between a Skaen Cultist and a Skaen Temple Guard is weapons, combat role, spells, buffs and items.

See above quote

? wut

 

[SCO]

They had Sawyer ffs, he had experience with IWD2, that experience alone should have worked for the better and added the very much needed focus to PoE's design.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

Crafting - PoE

 

[Vault Dweller]

Curious to what Vault Dweller thinks of this. Do you think the McGuffin works, that players feel that they are going mad and finding Thaos is the only solution?

No, I don't. It's one of the game's many disappointments. My guess is that after the spirit meter complaints, Obsidian was reluctant to inconvenience the player in any way.

I agree with your inventory VD, but how about replayability? And the C&C is minimal to non-existent in PoE. It wasn't super interesting in BG2, but there was a lot you could do very differently in subsequent playthroughts. And build diversity made you want to replay as well.

I've never replayed BG2 (started twice but gave up half way when my party got too powerful). There wasn't all that much I could do differently and replaying with a different build meant killing in different ways or getting a different stronghold.

C&C was never the focus. Different classes (in PoE) get plenty of different dialogue options and even affect quests.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Enemy variety ≠ encounter design. You need to figure out what your point is and make it. Though, I don't see how Durlag has more enemy variety than e.g. Od Nua. And this is with you taking the absolute BEST dungeon from BG1's expansion solely focused on this dungeon and trying to make the point that it was a notch better than core PoE. Come on bro. BG1 and PoE are extremely close in dungeon design.

My point is, an important part of whole dungeon crawling expeirence for me is what sort of opposition I face there. Fighting one same group 15 times over the whole map culminating with a boss fight that is a slightly better version of said group is boring (was for me atleast) and lowers my whole opinion on said dungeon.

Enemy variety is one of the crucial elements of good encounter design.

As far as layout goes, multiple paths of entry, multiple ways to handle the final boss, multiple ways to end the quest, multiple ways around in the dungeon itself?

Yeah, in that regard (dungeon layout, C&C, dialogue/writing) it's great but the whole experience of it was dragged down for me by bland copy & paste encounter design.

 

[Athelas]

Yeah BG2 crafting is way better, especially with ToB.

The best Wilderness Area is probably Magran's Fork - it has a neutral NPC encounter, you encounter Durance there and there's a few different types of enemies, some dead adventurers with some good loot for that stage in the game, and an abandoned lodge.

The only unfortunate thing is that there was no dialogue with that chick that ambushes you, I'm not even sure who they were, maybe working for the Leaden Key? No idea whatsoever. It was cooler in BG where you could trade words with a bandit leader before a fight.

She works for Osrya, the animancer in Raedric's Hold, and was charged with finding new victims to experiment on.

 

[Ellef]

BG2 crafting would win just by not being a bland every-weapon-is-alike enchanting system.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yeah BG2 crafting is way better, especially with ToB.

Maybe I forgot something, but do you mean finding different pieces and then asking the smith or that imp to put them together? It's not crafting, it's finding cool items in pieces.

PoE has a crafting system that allows you to upgrade all your equipment.

 

[Grunker]

Enemy variety ≠ encounter design. You need to figure out what your point is and make it. Though, I don't see how Durlag has more enemy variety than e.g. Od Nua. And this is with you taking the absolute BEST dungeon from BG1's expansion solely focused on this dungeon and trying to make the point that it was a notch better than core PoE. Come on bro. BG1 and PoE are extremely close in dungeon design.

My point is, an important part of dungeon for me is what sort of opposition I face there.

I agree. See my discussion with Sensuki.

Yeah, in that regard (dungeon layout) it's great but the whole experience of it was dragged down for me by copy & paste encounter design.

Then I suspect you hate 80-90% of BG1, right?

 

[felipepepe]

1) Encounter design is decidedly not better for the majority of BG1.

Yes, that's why my complaint was that PoE "kept its simplistic encounter design".

2) As other's have asked for, where is your basis for claiming this vast difference in experience? According to Sensuki, the majority of designers on PoE were completely new.

You serious? No one at BioWare had made an RPG or even a game before. This is not an exaggeration. Meanwhile, PoE's lead designer worked on IWD and was lead on IWD 2, not to mention all the other RPGs, like NWN2 and F:NV. Isn't that enough?

If you need more, BioWare had no reference but Darklands as to how make RTwP combat, and had to find a way to adapt AD&D to it. The PoE staff had all the IE games to use as reference, plus experimentations made by others, such as D&D 4th edition, which they clearly took a lot from.

3) Some encounters are well designed. I don't agree with your blanket statement that it all just sucks. You are seriously lacking in nuance in your analysis of PoE, while at the same time giving BG1 completely free passes. It's bullshit, bro.

Like, you take the VAST improvement in combat and character customization and handwave it as "yeah OK I guess it's a small improvement on BG1's next-to-nothing", and then you take tiny differences in encounter design and go "WOW SUCH A DIFFERENCE ONE GAME IS CLEARLY INFERIOR"

In that post I was comparing it with BG2. BG2 has a vastly superior encounter design, which PoE failed to take advantage of. And I don't think that PoE's character system is superior the the flexibility you have in BG2, mixing specializations with multi-classing and game-changing items.

 

[Grunker]

Yeah BG2 crafting is way better, especially with ToB.

Maybe I forgot something, but do you mean finding different pieces and then asking the smith or that imp to put them together? It's not crafting, it's finding cool items in pieces.

PoE has a crafting system that allows you to upgrade all your equipment.

False dichotomy. In BG2 you improve items by finding cool and unique shit and forging some other cool and unique shit. In PoE you improve items by adding a very small array of identical properties to your found shit.

 

[Infinitron]

BG2 doesn't have a crafting system, can we not have this apples & oranges argument about something that doesn't really matter that much anyway

 

[sqeecoo]

I've never replayed BG2 (started twice but gave up half way when my party got too powerful). There wasn't all that much I could do differently and replaying with a different build meant killing in different ways or getting a different stronghold.

C&C was never the focus. Different classes (in PoE) get plenty of different dialogue options and even affect quests.

I respectfully disagree about BG2. It's probably been a decade since I've played it, but off the top of my head: Killing Firkraag, solving the Underdark questline in 2-3 different ways, joining up with Bodhi, dealing with the druids in the merchant town, restoring the magic sphere to it's rightful owner/taking it for yourself, influencing your very numerous companions in very different directions. There was also plenty of stuff that was hidden well enough that there was practically no way to see it all in the first playthrough.
Again, I wouldn't call BG2 great but replayability it had. PoE, not so much if at all.

And for a game relying heavily on story (as opposed to say, good encounter design), the complete lack of C&C is baffling.

 

[Grunker]

Isn't that enough?

Enough that the basic systems need to be vastly better? Yes. And they are.

In that post I was comparing it with BG2

Then what are we discussing? You'll note I'm currently discussing BG2 vs. PoE with VD and coming down on the "BG2 is VASTLY superior"-side.

PoE is pretty comparable to BG1 however, and beats it in a few places.

BG2 doesn't have a crafting system, can we not have this apples & oranges argument about something that doesn't really matter that much anyway

'Crafting system' is just a theoretical construct. The substance is how the two games handle itemization. BG2 wins handily here.

Otherwise you craft an obviously false dichotomy where PoE "wins" over BG2 not because it has a particularly engaging crafting systems but simply because it has one. An obvious fallacy.

 

[ironyuri]

Grunker the serial fucking manchild defending this piece of shit to the last breath; Felipepepe the RTwP / BG apologist shitting on it and upholding his beloved babby toys as pinnacles of design; Vault Dweller the underpants shitting dementia patient who couldn't remember game design if it kicked him in the ass (let alone how to write a fucking decent story - have you ever read a fucking book you ignorant cunt, or were you too busy working sales and putting all that esoteric knowledge you gained there into your own execrable piece of shit?).

What a fucking laugh.

PoE is an eclectic, banal piece of shit. It has the depth of a puddle no matter which level you examine - narrative, mechanic, setting, design.

Pastiched narrative plastered over pastiched mechanics plastered over a pastiched engine, served up with a healthy dose of psuedo-nostalgia for dumbfucks who barely even remember the Infinity Engine games or why they were shit themselves.

Plot hook? Not a one to be found.

Motivations? Look somewhere fucking else.

Nonsense? Fucking everywhere. The setting tossing around psuedo-Gaelic as a thin veneer for an even more banal rendering of the Forgotten Realms with a small dash of Dark Souls thrown in the pot for good measure.

Gameplay? Welcome to everything that made BG/IWD shit and nothing that made them work.

Get the fuck out of here.

 

[Grunker]

Get the fuck out of here.

please do, yeah

 

[Kane]

 

[Infinitron]

P.S. People who talk about "replayability" as a distinct feature instead of a byproduct of other features are annoying

You don't make "replayable" games. You make games with choices. Those choices should be interesting for reasons other than that they make the game "replayable". "Replayability" is incidental to good game design

 

[ironyuri]

Get the fuck out of here.

please do, yeah

I might, but we all know sure as fuck you'll be here in ten years time claiming this piece of shit was better than Fallout in every way.

 

[Shevek]

Haha, nice, I knew this would eventually come down whether people think PoE or BG2 is better. The thing is, when people think of BG2, they think of it with all the ToB crap added in. I wonder how may others will find PoE preferable once it gets xpac content (new talents, items, maybe even classes and companions, more dungeons, etc..). People forget how many items got added in to BG2 with ToB or that Watcher's Keep was from ToB.

 

[GloomFrost]

After reading comments I got an impression that it is TS who is the "casual RPG fan" who played IE games years ago.
Not enough unique Godlike dialogues?? PLEASE!! BG doesnt have any unique dialogues, choices and consequences, or any replay-ability for that matter.
Dungeon design is by no means worse then in BG, as for BG2 it is simply a much bigger game, it has a lot more content then then any RPG that ever came out. And for every awesome dungeon like Sphere, you could get a mediocre one like sewers for example Also when you compare POE to IE games you need to specify which one coz Icewind is a completely different game from Torment (which had some god awfull combat btw)

 

[Grunker]

better than Fallout in every way.

you might want to get that old sore seen to

the butt is a bad place for wounds to fester

Haha, nice, I knew this would eventually come down whether people think PoE or BG2 is better. The thing is, when people think of BG2, they think of it with all the ToB crap added in. I wonder how may others will find PoE preferable once it gets xpac content (new talents, items, maybe even classes and companions, more dungeons, etc..). People forget how many items got added in to BG2 with ToB or that Watcher's Keep was from ToB.

I don't think there are many who will agree with VD that PoE can compete with BG2.

 

[sqeecoo]

P.S. People who talk about "replayability" as a distinct feature instead of a byproduct of other features are annoying

You don't make "replayable" games. You make games with choices. Those choices should be interesting for reasons other than that they make the game "replayable". "Replayability" is incidental to good game design

I agree, and sorry to annoy you if that was directed at me. Let me put it this way: does PoE have enough interesting choices in story and strategy to make it replayable? No. BG2 did, and in spades.

 

[Vault Dweller]

BG2 doesn't have a crafting system, can we not have this apples & oranges argument about something that doesn't really matter that much anyway

'Crafting system' is just a theoretical construct. The substance is how the two games handle itemization. BG2 wins handily here.

Eh? A theoretical construct?

The purpose of a crafting system is to let you improve your equipment. There is nothing theoretical about it. PoE has one and it's fairly decent. BG2 doesn't have one, period.

 

[Shadenuat]

P.S. People who talk about "replayability" as a distinct feature instead of a byproduct of other features are annoying

You don't make "replayable" games. You make games with choices. Those choices should be interesting for reasons other than that they make the game "replayable". "Replayability" is incidental to good game design

I'm sure most people watched that youtube video and we can safely assume replayability[as if it's interesting to go through the game again because it has logical consequences for what you do and what world you play and reactivity is gut etc.]; as in we're not looking for paragon & renegade here.

Although the same light & dark side Bio used in Kotor1 did make it more replayable within what you can call canon of SW universe, and then Obsidian made it even better, so it doesn't mean blue&red moral meter can't work in any game ever.