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Neverwinter Nights 2: Storm of Zehir - Under appreciated RPG

Erebus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
4,855
Disagree about the setting, there aren't many cRPGs with jungle environs (Chult) and the culture of yuan-tism and the opulence of their temples I found somewhat refreshing from the ultra-generic Drizzt FR, so I think there's a little more to SoZ's setting than you give it credit for.

I really liked the idea of setting the story in a jungle instead of the kind of bland environment we find in the OC (pity we end up on the Sword Coast in the second part). But I found the jungle to have very little atmosphere. In fact, I never really felt like I was exploring a jungle.

The yuan-ti temples were fine, but (again) too small.



I never bothered with crafting, maybe I should have.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,871
I'm very upset at whoever it was who balanced the crafting recipes. Adding +4 armor to anything costs 8000 gold. Meanwhile +3 amulets, rings, and cloaks of protection cost 9000 each, +3 boots of hardiness cost 12000. The smart thing to do is to craft something more worthwhile and then add the +4 bonus to it, making those recipes completely worthless. Absurdian.
 

Arkeus

Arcane
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
1,406
As for tanking Dread Herald, its possible to get -60-/70 AC within 20 levels without too much effort. The important thing about the battle is to take out the zealots in prayer first and use the rectangular water feature in the middle to separate DHoZ from your weaker party members.
I never managed to win the game on my Solo playthrough with my monk on the hardest difficulty, though that's partly because i didn't really try to optimise him after i realized how hard the last boss was.
 

granit

Augur
Joined
Mar 1, 2013
Messages
135
Personally I always considered story to take a back seat to everything else in a RPG, especially in party and exploration based old school RPG's. I think setting, atmosphere, depth of combat/customization, etc are far more compelling things than being told a story. Reason why I don't enjoy Bioware RPG's or even The Witcher games.

Basically I'd rather make up my own story in a dynamic open world than be told a story.

This is why LARP and adventurer simulator Morrowind works so well. Since you make up a lot of the story, it's usually pretty great!
 

Arkeus

Arcane
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
1,406
The point is you do not really need them. In PnP Leadership is the best THE BEST feat Period. Not so in cRPGs where they really are pure extras in play which is anyway too easy.
Why you do not -need- them, an extra minion can be really useful. Also, the minions you can get all have their own dialogs and it can be fun to add them.
 

Dorateen

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
4,430
Location
The Crystal Mist Mountains
Like I've always said, screw the Obsidian cohorts.

Go into the NWN2 toolset and open Storm of Zehir in the campaign editor. Change the Party Creation size to 6. Then play the game like Icewind Dale or the Gold Box series.

Also, a terrific community project was made that added 12 new dungeon locations to the overland map. These being more developed than the official bland one-room affairs some people complain about.

SoZ Holiday Expansion Project
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Go into the NWN2 toolset and open Storm of Zehir in the campaign editor. Change the Party Creation size to 6. Then play the game like Icewind Dale or the Gold Box series.

And miss out on the flavor text during party conversation mode? I admit the characters are shallow, but they say amusing things at times. And some of what they say is voiced.


Will definitely check this out, thank you!
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,871
The important thing about the battle is to take out the zealots in prayer first and use the rectangular water feature in the middle to separate DHoZ from your weaker party members.
Not for me, I killed the minions first, then the priest thing, the Herald, followed by the crystal people.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,760
SoZ adds interesting elements, but its massive flaws prevent it - in my opinion - from being very entertaining. The final dungeon is pretty good, though.

what "massive" flaws are those?

The game is hollow. It has a bunch of stuff, but there's no interesting core to focus on enjoying.

- The story : is very weak and generic.

- The characters : are underdeveloped and not very interesting.

- The setting : is boring. The cities are lifeless and have no atmosphere.

- The exploration : is unsatisfying. The minor things you can find here and there quickly become repetitive and there are very few genuinely interesting places/encounters that you get to discover by exploring.

- The dungeons : are mostly as tiny as they are boring. There are a few exceptions, but not nearly enough.

- The fighting : is not worse than in NWN2 OC, but it's not exactly memorable. Putting aside the final dungeon, few fights are very entertaining.

- The trading : gets repetitive fairly quickly and is largely pointless. The gold bars you have to earn are a very artificial way of lengthening the time necessary to complete the main quest. The trading empire you build has little connection to the main plot and is completely forgotten in the last part of the game. And the money you earn is of little practical use.


So, what's left ? I agree that SoZ added interesting elements to NWN2, but it should have focused a bit more on actually being fun.
I got to make a party customized how I wanted it instead of picking between losers willing to work for free. Even if I agreed with those things you've listed, it still comes out ahead.
 

eremita

Savant
Joined
Sep 1, 2013
Messages
797
The overland map is a great feature! Although it would be much better if it was turn based (survival could be redesigned as granting more action/move points for example). The fights are much harder than in OC/MotB (I'm playing on core rules). I think the only way one can really ruin his experience is by being forced to deal with majority of random encounters. But the whole thing is really ballsy if you think about that. The game is punishing as fuck if you make a bad build. It's punishing to the degree you are disgusted by it and consider it a bad game (a game basically consisting of a lot of boring shit). But that's devs telling you, that you're doing something wrong... You bet you are, you need a ranger/rogue in your party! (ranger is better imho, because he also has survival but more importantly because you can then give your rogue all the social skills, picking locks, disabling traps, tumble and Use magic device... In other words, two characters, one ranger and another rogue, can basically cover all your important skills in terms of Overland map and conversations).

Crafting is also great in this game and it's certainly useful.
 

eremita

Savant
Joined
Sep 1, 2013
Messages
797
Okay, does anybody know how exactly combat works in regards of AI targeting your party members? It seems that use of certain abilities attract your opponents, no matter how long they fought previous party member/what kind of abilities that party member used (there's no aggro for sure). Some fuckers are probably scripted to target mages first etc., but it seems thez usually react to particular action - like when I fight someone with my dual wielding ranger and want to flank them with my rogue for sneak attack (if your rogue is positioned on the opposite side of enemy threatened by another party member, it will trigger the sneak attack) the enemy always turns to rogue, thus fucking up my intentions. I'm not talking about attack of opportunity here, which triggers when I navigate my rogue badly (mainly running around engaged opponent), but about enemy generally turning himself to face my rogue. Can I do something about it?

I don't mind that much, because I'm playing a build with feint, I'm just curious...
 

Nael

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
11,384
Location
Indy
sozzy2.jpg
 

Gulnar

Scholar
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Messages
133
You should feed aaaaall the cohorts to one of many. He likes them. He likes them a lot.
 

VentilatorOfDoom

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
8,603
Location
Deutschland
Okay, does anybody know how exactly combat works in regards of AI targeting your party members? It seems that use of certain abilities attract your opponents, no matter how long they fought previous party member/what kind of abilities that party member used (there's no aggro for sure). Some fuckers are probably scripted to target mages first etc., but it seems thez usually react to particular action - like when I fight someone with my dual wielding ranger and want to flank them with my rogue for sneak attack (if your rogue is positioned on the opposite side of enemy threatened by another party member, it will trigger the sneak attack) the enemy always turns to rogue, thus fucking up my intentions. I'm not talking about attack of opportunity here, which triggers when I navigate my rogue badly (mainly running around engaged opponent), but about enemy generally turning himself to face my rogue. Can I do something about it?

I don't mind that much, because I'm playing a build with feint, I'm just curious...
You should get sneak attacks as long as you attack from behind OR if the target is flanked. Doesn't matter if he turns to face your rogue as long as he's flanked.
 

eremita

Savant
Joined
Sep 1, 2013
Messages
797
Okay, does anybody know how exactly combat works in regards of AI targeting your party members? It seems that use of certain abilities attract your opponents, no matter how long they fought previous party member/what kind of abilities that party member used (there's no aggro for sure). Some fuckers are probably scripted to target mages first etc., but it seems thez usually react to particular action - like when I fight someone with my dual wielding ranger and want to flank them with my rogue for sneak attack (if your rogue is positioned on the opposite side of enemy threatened by another party member, it will trigger the sneak attack) the enemy always turns to rogue, thus fucking up my intentions. I'm not talking about attack of opportunity here, which triggers when I navigate my rogue badly (mainly running around engaged opponent), but about enemy generally turning himself to face my rogue. Can I do something about it?

I don't mind that much, because I'm playing a build with feint, I'm just curious...
You should get sneak attacks as long as you attack from behind OR if the target is flanked. Doesn't matter if he turns to face your rogue as long as he's flanked.
Yep I know, but it doesn't seem to work this way - once he turns, it's fucked... i'm gonna test it some more tonight though
 

eremita

Savant
Joined
Sep 1, 2013
Messages
797
getting HiPS (shadow dancer) certainly helps setting up sneak attack barrages
Yeah, it sure does. So does the feint feat or blinding/holding the target. As I said, I don't have a problem with getting my sneak attacks, I'm just curious how the AI works. I'm gonna post some more about the combat here.
 

eremita

Savant
Joined
Sep 1, 2013
Messages
797
So, after completing SoZ with two-man party and also soloing it, I felt the urge to write something about it. On hardcore difficulty and with a smaller (1-3) party, the game can definitely be hard and I would recommend this "adjustment" to anyone who's looking for a challenge. That said, with 3+ party members, it becomes trivial besides the final fight, which can be a real pain in the ass unless you have a proper Tank and/or divine caster. Well, that's not exactly true, because you can actually finish the game with many different builds (provided they're thought out) if you know what you're doing. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason why SoZ is one of the best RPGs ever made and the reason why I'm writing this - because this game actually makes use of the 3.5 DnD ruleset. It's known that SoZ is quite special because it tries to include all the skills gameplay-wise, which finally makes classes like Ranger and Druid unique and desirable. But this also transfers to combat; my two-man party consisted of Ranger (archery) and Bard (melee, tank). When you're playing under these conditions, you have to think about what you're doing and I was amazed to discover that there really are multiple (meaningful!) ways of dealing with shit. Something you never really find out with full party/proper party composition (mage, cleric, fighter, rogue...). With my two guys I was forced to make use of everything there is and the one thing that really got me through the toughest shit were the traps. They can be really powerful, there are various types and more importantly, the design allows you to use them properly (well, unless we count one particular engine bug that is quite annoying - all your buffs, traps etc are not loaded in the module when loading your saves, which means that you have to prepare for encounter every single time...). Besides random encounters on the Overland map, you always have a chance to make the areas your playground. Thanks to Survival, your Ranger knows exactly where the enemies are. Thanks to Hide, Move Silently and Set Traps, he can set them strategically and overall prepare for everything, striking when ready. This is NOT something you can do in NWN/NWN2 OC + expansions, Dragon Age, Pillars of Eternity etc. consistently and in any meaningful way. And frankly, there's no reason besides for shit and giggles... Thanks to Use Magic Device skill of the Bard, you're actually forced to use wands, scrolls and items in general. And holy shit the itemization is fucking great and certain items are really handy. And it's just those small things you know, like if you don't have anything against Mindflayer's psionic attack for example (Protection from Evil etc.), your're just fucked, good bye, go get the shit or you're stuck. That's so fucking refreshing! Sure, with full/proper party chances are you're prepared automatically, without even thinking about it, because someone in your party is just gonna be well suited for the situation. With less guys/solo, it's likely you'll be forced to adapt. And again, the sweet thing is that the game gives you means to do it (lot of skills, itemization and thoughtful area+encounter design). I guarantee you there's no way you're fucked unless making really stupid decisions with you builds.

When going solo or with weaker classes (basically all the non casters), you'll be forced to multiclass. You're definitely not gonna beat the game with pure fighter, no matter how carefully built (Fighter is meant for multiclassing an. I won't write a guide because there are better people than me who already did. Like here: http://forum.bioware.com/topic/129068-how-to-build-a-decent-character-in-nwn2/ I did my solo run with Eldritch Knight (SR of Yuan-ti pureblood and UMD helped a lot).

It's a real shame those talented designers didn't have more time and money, because when judging the game as standalone, it's modest and little bit hollow... But still, SoZ and MotB are Obsidian's best work, each in their own way.

PS: Advice for all the Rangers: Main boss is not a Monstrous Humanoid but Outsider (try get to lvl 21 and get Bane of Enemies, it can make a huge difference).
 
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eremita

Savant
Joined
Sep 1, 2013
Messages
797
Finale is going really well!
HkZeeBI.jpg


The battle is in fact artificial difficulty and very very easy to beat with ONE RIGHT SPELL. Use
Shadow Simulacrum. You can even get a scroll for it. NO SAVE. NO SR. Cast twice if necessary. Shouldn't be.

Yeah, that fucking spell is so broken :D But I like it, it gives you the "killing a dragon with a death spell BG2 style" vibes...

Pro tip: Shadow Simulacrum is treated as a summon creature spell, meaning there can be only one active at any given time. UNLESS you cast it through your familiar. This is the only way you can have two duplicated creatures when soloing, making this spell ridiculous indeed. Well, fucking Mages...
I love them!:yeah:
 
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Captain Shrek

Guest
This is what makes magic so awesome in D&D. So sad they did not add enough spell casting restrictions such as ingredients that were not dirt cheap/easy to get.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
21,504
I did the game solo with an evil Sorcerer/Archmage. I did all quests and stuff and before final area went to sacrifice all companions to One of many . You get XP per each equal to your current level x 1000. So with this "trick" I got to lvls 20+ and finished the game :)

Very fun expansion, enjoyed it more than MotB (which I finished once and played second time to half). I am more interested in combat and systems than story in cRPGs.
 

Saxon1974

Prophet
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
2,121
Location
The Desert Wasteland
Really liked this expansion. I was really hoping the world map would lead to more games of this type. Sadly it disappeared quickly, even modders barely used it.
 

Shevek

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
It seems Kaedrin will be updating his fantastic PRC pack and releasing version 1.46 soon. I might give SoZ another whirl when that gets released.
 

Saxon1974

Prophet
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
2,121
Location
The Desert Wasteland
Yea agree on the combat not to mention I can never get used to the camera in nwn2 no matter how much I monkey around with it.
 

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