Neverwinter Nights 2: Storm of Zehir - Under appreciated RPG

[Roguey]

SoZ was one of the most boring games I've ever played with an extraordinarily overrated final boss/dungeon. Time for the thing I paste in every SoZ thread:

I steamrolled that thing in one try on very difficult just by pre-buffing, then tanking and spanking with a barb/fb, ranger/rogue/fighter and a favored soul who only had to cast greater restoration thrice (plus true sight to fix some blindness). I also had a mage in the back doing absolutely nothing after the buffing, I suppose I could have sped up the process even further had I used it.

Anyway, I'm moderately positive (I could be wrong) the best IE bosses couldn't be defeated with an every day Dragon Age tactic on the highest difficult setting using similar character building techniques.

 

[Crispy]

We don't care about what you think. What is Lesi's opinion on the game?

 

[Roguey]

We don't care about what you think. What is Lesi's opinion on the game?

I dunno if she ever got around to playing it but if she did, she probably considered it banal-shit-boring. Lemme check.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...r-first-impressions.27785/page-28#post-660220

Finally getting around to playing SoZ.

Currently, it seems... flat. I'm still playing it, because at least it hasn't strained my patience to the point I'd uninstall it, but motivation to keep going is small.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/sword-of-zehir-is-it-boring.35038/#post-855478

Yes, SoZ is boring. I desperately wanted to like it and would have liked to congratulate Annie et al on what a good job they've done... but I can't. The loading times combined are too much, the story doesn't exist, the dialogue choices are fake, the two-room dungeons are horrible, and despite the attempt at tactical gameplay, NWN2 combat is NWN2 combat.

I know her so well.

 

[Sceptic]

Heh. That sure sounds funny coming from me, doesn't it?

I still stand by my point, because you're cherry picking in order to fit your argument. You blame SOZ for example for differences between 2E and 3.5, things that should be completely irrelevant when comparing the two video games as video games. You also chose camera of all things as a difference - UI and technical stuff like camera is extremely low on my list when looking for what inspired what. You also cheat with the open world by claiming it's unique to SOZ and POR was restricted to Phlan - did you forget about the overworld map in POR? incidentally the only game in the series of 4 to actually HAVE a fully explorable overworld map? (Curse and POD's maps were just there to go from point A to point B to point C). On the RTWP vs TB of course you're right, but then RTWP was clearly inspired by TB and trying to make a TB system function in real-time (with all the pitfalls this contradiction entails). "Inspired by" doesn't mean "identical to", on the contrary.

I don't think there's much point in furthering this, as we're clearly picking very different critaria when comparing the games and I don't think we're going to agree on which ones are the right criteria to pick. Brofisted you anyway for taking the time and effort to clarify your argument and making this a more interesting discussion

 

[Average Manatee]

I just want the ToEE and the SoZ engines to be fruitful and multiply together.

 

[Volourn]

A SOZZY thread for a SOZZY game.

 

[CappenVarra]

SoZ had many flaws, but also the highest "true cult rpgness quotient" of all NWN instances inflicted on us in the noughties (at least 4x higher than any other)... If you find it boring because "the story is lacking", just face the fact that you don't like RPGs all that much and go away

 

[Xi]

As the quality of story telling increases, so does linearity of choice. That's my biggest gripe with video game story telling. A story only needs to be adequate, even if rehashed and replayed for the millionth time. Beyond this, role-playing is all about the choices one makes, the interaction their character's have with the world, and the reaction the world has to the player's choices.

In PnP you can go insane with this idea, and that's what makes PnP so great. In cRPG design, their are serious limitations because choice-possibilities must be created with finite resources. Thus the end result is one that embraces strong story telling (most common) or weak story telling with more choice. The inherent quality of choice in a weak story design are up for serious debate. Even in PnP, going off the beaten trail is a testament to the DM's skills in making shit up on the fly more than anything else. Same thing here, how much random shit can a developer make up on the fly?

I like the prospect of weak story telling anyway.

 

[Volourn]

SOZ's problem wasn't a alck of a 'good' story. It's the lack of quality combat, quality dialogue, quality exploration, quality C&C, quality 'dungeons'... Only reason it is remotely playable is it is DnD.

 

[Lilura]

Out of utter boredom I decided to replay Storm of Zehir and I've just reached the final area. I was gonna do a fullblown Let's Play on Codex but instead I'm doing a sort of half-arsed pictorial run which might be of interest to you guys.

What I like about SoZ:

>Difficulty
The game is fucking hard on D&D Hardcore Rules, harder than I recall, make no mistake . This isn't like the OC or Mask of the Betrayer where you can more or less just run in and kill things and take their stuff. If you aren't tactical and constantly on the ball making sure your party is pulling out all stops (chokepoints, prioritization etc) then the enemies will simply eat you alive. Even the "lowly" goblin-like batiri are a force to be reckoned with. Not only are the enemies stronger, there are also many more of them and they act more intelligently. For example, enemies will run from one side of a dungeon to the other to help out their comrades and this threatens to overwhelm the party, so you have to think more about how to get through a dungeon AS A WHOLE since you can't rest in any of them. Some of the battles can last for half an hour, pretty epic for MIDDLE levels...

You start off with up to four characters and you can hire one cohort. I suggest a balanced party covering the "necessary" roles of tank, healer, stealthmaster and arcane bombardier/disabler. This doesn't mean you don't multi-class and be boring but unless you're an expert character builder I don't recommend getting too cute with builds, especially if it delays spells and attack progression. Don't think about how awesome the build will be if you XP farm to epic levels like a retard, think about how good they'll be over the WHOLE course of the game instead.

>Crafting and Trading
Unless you have foreknowledge from previous runs crafting is absolutely essential to survival. AC is extremely important in SoZ, every +1 counts so work to optimize it. Yes tower shields are ugly, craft and equip them! You MAY find +3 enchanted items but they're rare as hen's teeth, +4 loot is almost a fable in SoZ...
The inventive trading system of goods and resources is easy to get to grips with and required to build up your merchant house, craft weapons and armors from woods and metals, gain specific merchant inventories and progress in the plot. Watching all your little upgraded caravans roll over the land and fight off bandits without needing your help is pretty satisfying...

>Speaking of which, Overland Map
People whine about it but I find they're the same idiots who don't like the spirit meter in MotB. They probably didn't RTFM and so didn't have a survivalist in the party so they moved slow and got forced into inane combat that took aeons to load up the area. But in the FIRST hub you're at there's two survivalist cohorts, HIRE ONE. These guys have the relevant skillsets to make traversing the overland as painless as possible. I chose the Ranger and pumped Spot, Survival and Hide and only EVER got forced into a fight by scripted events. Even if she rolled low, she could outrun them. If you accidentally bump into an monster (it happens), use a tanglefoot bag and run. NOT HARD.

>"Multi-headed Monster!"
When in dialogue mode small portraits of your party members line up along the window and you can choose who speaks based on skill checks. Some quests can be resolved without fights simply by choosing the diplomatic character to respond, and your cohort has unique flavor text as well.

>Quality art direction and music
Superior to OC and probably one step down from MotB, you can see prime examples of this in my link above. Color use and lighting is impressive, I wish more cRPG devs would take lighting seriously. I think many devs don't because its the hardest thing to get right, yet it has a profound effect.
Music and sound play a large part in SoZ atmosphere, there is a puzzle based on vocals. Bards sing actual songs in taverns and environs like Priory of the Depths and the miasma of Zecorian's Demesne are standouts.

>Epic final battle
As mentioned in my previous post, SoZ doesn't go out with a whimper like Mask of the Betrayer. I'll probably write about this and put up some pics in the next few days, my rogue has just begun infiltration of the opulent World Serpent Temple.

 

[Roguey]

The game is fucking hard on D&D Hardcore Rules, harder than I recall, make no mistake .

No.

This isn't like the OC or Mask of the Betrayer where you can more or less just run in and kill things and take their stuff.

But that's what I did?

For example, enemies will run from one side of a dungeon to the other to help out their comrades and this threatens to overwhelm the party, so you have to think more about how to get through a dungeon AS A WHOLE since you can't rest in any of them.

The exit is literally seconds away if you absolutely have to rest. No penalties whatsoever.

Some of the battles can last for half an hour, pretty epic for MIDDLE levels...

What?

People whine about it but I find they're the same idiots who don't like the spirit meter in MotB. They probably didn't RTFM and so didn't have a survivalist in the party so they moved slow and got forced into inane combat that took aeons to load up the area. But in the FIRST hub you're at there's two survivalist cohorts, HIRE ONE. These guys have the relevant skillsets to make traversing the overland as painless as possible. I chose the Ranger and pumped Spot, Survival and Hide and only EVER got forced into a fight by scripted events. Even if she rolled low, she could outrun them. If you accidentally bump into an monster (it happens), use a tanglefoot bag and run. NOT HARD.

I hate the overland map because its inclusion resulted in much less time spent creating quality content. So instead we get two large bland dungeons filled with bland random encounters and bland side-rooms.

Also I understand that if your party leader isn't the stealth person, then chances are good you're going to get spotted as soon as you leave one of those bland side-rooms. This was especially a problem on release because they had to release a patch to reduce the number of roaming monsters.

As mentioned in my previous post, SoZ doesn't go out with a whimper like Mask of the Betrayer. I'll probably write about this and put up some pics in the next few days, my rogue has just begun infiltration of the opulent World Serpent Temple.

Hee. http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...der-appreciated-rpg.80903/page-3#post-2518308

 

[Arkeus]

>Difficulty
You start off with up to four characters and you can hire one cohort.

Leadership feat means you can hire a second one, iirc.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Above all else, i loved the constant skill checks in environment interactions and dialogues, felt like i could finally put to use the skill points that were mostly useless in the other NWN2 campaigns. Wish more games would use and abuse of skill checks.

 

[KevinV12000]

I just started to play this after reading the thread and I have one quick question for the local experts:

I know that some areas are beyond by 4th level party at the moment. Am I to do the Lantan Lumberyard quest and hop to the Sword Coast, then come back? Or should I stay put and earn experience other ways and then tackle the rest of the area around Samargol?

 

[Roguey]

As for the difficulty, I'm talking blind run or you're rusty (like me) and D&D hardcore rules (which isn't default). But maybe you were overleveled from XP farming or you're simply more l33t than me, though I doubt it...

Surely it's the latter. I don't XP farm. I did sacrifice all the cohorts to One of Many because they're all useless. Four is all you need.

And unless you're ridiculously over-leveled and -equipped, you couldn't have just run thru some areas like the Banite enclave, Illefarn Ruin or Zecorian's Demesne, you'd also definitely get raped in any yuan-ti temple too.

I don't remember anything worthwhile in the enclave or the ruin and for the demesne I used the room's door as a choke point as I spammed anti-undead spells.

Finale is going really well!

Tank and spank. Surely you have some of them equipped with holy weapons and every +4 AC bonus you can get.

 

[Roguey]

This is possibly the stupidest way to fight the Herald.

It worked on the highest difficulty setting where he has a bunch of random immunities to certain spells and he died in seconds so idgaf.

 

[cvv]

I finally grabbed NWN2 Complete on GamersGate on their 70% off spring sale and readying to take it for the spin.

Now, I usually don't mind reading up on a game before playing it but going through NWN sites now - it's fucking mindboggling. I don't want to devote a lifetime for this game, I just want some reasonable enjoyment out of it, so what can the monocled site recommend me? Any essential mods or fan created content that's an absolute must have?

I read elsewhere some Codexers saying to skip vanilla NWN2 and go straight for the MotB plus some of the better modules. And after skimming through this thread I definitelly want to try SoZ too. Would that be the way to go? Thanks.

 

[Kem0sabe]

I finally grabbed NWN2 Complete on GamersGate on their 70% off spring sale and readying to take it for the spin.

Now, I usually don't mind reading up on a game before playing it but going through NWN sites now - it's fucking mindboggling. I don't want to devote a lifetime for this game, I just want some reasonable enjoyment out of it, so what can the monocled site recommend me? Any essential mods or fan created content that's an absolute must have?

I read elsewhere some Codexers saying to skip vanilla NWN2 and go straight for the MotB plus some of the better modules. And after skimming through this thread I definitelly want to try SoZ too. Would that be the way to go? Thanks.

In terms of mods/hacks, i remember there being a spell pack that corrected a lot of spell rule set inaccuracies, some AI scripts, also UI modifications and some pretty nice texture packs for the game.

Personally i would just download the texture packs and play Vanilla then import character to MotB - then start a thief (for flavor) to play Wesgate and a custom party from scratch to play SoZ (full party is not needed as there are plenty of npc companions ready to join).

 

[Erebus]

what can the monocled site recommend me? Any essential mods or fan created content that's an absolute must have?

I read elsewhere some Codexers saying to skip vanilla NWN2 and go straight for the MotB plus some of the better modules. And after skimming through this thread I definitelly want to try SoZ too. Would that be the way to go? Thanks.

NWN2 OC is nowhere as awful as NWN1 OC. It's about as interesting as, say, Dragon Age : Origins. Rather meh all in all, but not agressively bad. A few parts (such as the trial and the siege) are even reasonably entertaining.

If you do bypass the Original Campaign, you should at least read a bit about its story and characters. The links between the OC and MotB aren't especially numerous, but (unfortunately) they can't be completely neglected either.

SoZ adds interesting elements, but its massive flaws prevent it - in my opinion - from being very entertaining. The final dungeon is pretty good, though.

Mysteries of Westgate is a very nice mid-level urban adventure, with no pointless combat.

From what I've observed, good amateur modules are much rarer for NWN2 than for NWN1. There have been many threads full of recommendations on the subject, you'll easily find them.

 

[Jaesun]

I forget, how did crafting work in SoZ?

 

[Dorateen]

Crafting stations and recipes, as in actual paper recipes that had to be collected and kept in a book. Then the character with the appropriate feat requirements could activate the station. There was also more of a gold (money) requirement than searching for essences and components.

Since Lilura has just played, she can probably go into more detail about this system.

 

[Lilura]

Its actually pretty cool, your party leader starts off with recipe books related to armor, weapons, traps etc, you find or buy recipes and they go in the book. You then simply click the recipe to make the item, and providing one of your party members has the required skill and crafting components (gems, metals and woods, creature innards and outtards), the object is made. The only other condition is to be within the vicinity of a crafting station (but you don't need to be to make traps).
There are no moulds or essences to divide, you don't have to place the items onto a bench and you don't need a smithy's hammer etc.
It works well, i like it.

There was also more of a gold (money) requirement than searching for essences and components.

GP requirements do seem steep and at first i wondered whether it was worth it, but you can craft full plate for half the amount is costs to buy it and you can convert tradebars into GP so that after a while money is less of an issue. if you craft certain items out of rare resources, you can turn 1000s of GP profit also. as mentioned previously, +3 loot is rare and +4 loot is almost unheard of, so crafting is the way to go.

 

[Wizfall]

I finally grabbed NWN2 Complete on GamersGate on their 70% off spring sale and readying to take it for the spin.

Now, I usually don't mind reading up on a game before playing it but going through NWN sites now - it's fucking mindboggling. I don't want to devote a lifetime for this game, I just want some reasonable enjoyment out of it, so what can the monocled site recommend me? Any essential mods or fan created content that's an absolute must have?

I read elsewhere some Codexers saying to skip vanilla NWN2 and go straight for the MotB plus some of the better modules. And after skimming through this thread I definitelly want to try SoZ too. Would that be the way to go? Thanks.

I played NW2 OC when it was released and found it so bad i stop playing it at the beginning of chapter 3 if i remember well (been a long time).
It's not that it is so bad but very boring and bland (and a huge deception after the awesome character creation).
I was so disgusted by NWN2 that i never tried MotB despite reading very good things about it.
Having being warned not to expect a lot of NWN2 OC, i guess it may be much easier for you to endure it and even enjoy some part of it.
If i were you i will start playing NWN2 OC but quickly drop it for MotB as soon as you think you start to being "burned" by NWN2 OC mediocrity.

 

[Erebus]

SoZ adds interesting elements, but its massive flaws prevent it - in my opinion - from being very entertaining. The final dungeon is pretty good, though.

what "massive" flaws are those?

The game is hollow. It has a bunch of stuff, but there's no interesting core to focus on enjoying.

- The story : is very weak and generic.

- The characters : are underdeveloped and not very interesting.

- The setting : is boring. The cities are lifeless and have no atmosphere.

- The exploration : is unsatisfying. The minor things you can find here and there quickly become repetitive and there are very few genuinely interesting places/encounters that you get to discover by exploring.

- The dungeons : are mostly as tiny as they are boring. There are a few exceptions, but not nearly enough.

- The fighting : is not worse than in NWN2 OC, but it's not exactly memorable. Putting aside the final dungeon, few fights are very entertaining.

- The trading : gets repetitive fairly quickly and is largely pointless. The gold bars you have to earn are a very artificial way of lengthening the time necessary to complete the main quest. The trading empire you build has little connection to the main plot and is completely forgotten in the last part of the game. And the money you earn is of little practical use.


So, what's left ? I agree that SoZ added interesting elements to NWN2, but it should have focused a bit more on actually being fun.

 

[Lilura]

The game is hollow. It has a bunch of stuff, but there's no interesting core to focus on enjoying.

I consider the crafting, trading, combat, party building and overland mode "core". If you enjoyed none of that, fair enough, each to their own.

- The story : is very weak and generic.
- The characters : are underdeveloped and not very interesting.

Agreed, though it doesn't claim to be a storyfag's cRPG. There's Mask of the Betrayer for deep questing and fleshed out characters.

- The setting : is boring. The cities are lifeless and have no atmosphere.

Agree about the cities, someone needs to get their modding arse into gear and spruce them up with Athkatla-like ambiance. Disagree about the setting, there aren't many cRPGs with jungle environs (Chult) and the culture of yuan-tism and the opulence of their temples I found somewhat refreshing from the ultra-generic Drizzt FR, so I think there's a little more to SoZ's setting than you give it credit for.

- The exploration : is unsatisfying. The minor things you can find here and there quickly become repetitive and there are very few genuinely interesting places/encounters that you get to discover by exploring.
- The dungeons : are mostly as tiny as they are boring. There are a few exceptions, but not nearly enough.

Disagree. Some quests spurred on the exploration, for example Arcane Nexus. I found myself intrigued by everything I came across on the overland map, and entered every building and dungeon I could on my first, blind run of the game. IMO SoZ does a decent job at giving you the odd surprise, you never know what you'll find and it rewards you for scoping these places out. Some dungeons have almost nothing, you just shrug and move on to the next, this never stopped me exploring as I'd later come across something like the Banite enclave and appreciate it all the more. That's just me, though.

- The fighting : is not worse than in NWN2 OC, but it's not exactly memorable. Putting aside the final dungeon, few fights are very entertaining.

I can quite easily think of more than a few that were enjoyable other than the final fight. The only fights I disliked were the random encounters, for the reasons I gave above.

- The trading : gets repetitive fairly quickly and is largely pointless. The gold bars you have to earn are a very artificial way of lengthening the time necessary to complete the main quest. The trading empire you build has little connection to the main plot and is completely forgotten in the last part of the game. And the money you earn is of little practical use.

The amount of tradebars necessary to advance the plot is minimal, so it doesn't artificially lengthen the MQ all that much.
The game, however, is lengthened in that trading and crafting are intermingled, you can't craft what you need unless you open trade routes to the raw material or rare resource required to make it. You also need GP to craft, which mostly comes from trade bar conversion (so yeah, money does have practical use).
Anyway I didn't get tired of the trading mode of play because of the benefits it gave to outfitting the heroes.

So, what's left ? I agree that SoZ added interesting elements to NWN2, but it should have focused a bit more on actually being fun.

SoZ is as fun as any other official NWN1/2 module, IMO. It depends what sort of XP you're after. It would have been nice to have a little more C&C, though.