NWN Neverwinter Nights (NWN & NWN2) Modules Thread

[Lacrymas]

I'll take a look at the prestige class manual for the PRC soon and I'll come up with a personal list, but I expect I'll end up with at most 3 classes in the end. I want it to be as non-disruptive as possible at first.

 

[Grunker]

Here's my suggestion of what *to leave in.* For my taste, everything else be cut - bolded are the ones I'd argue very strongly for (I advise keeping all changes to the classes already in the game). It's probably not exhaustive and I might have missed something:

Classes:

Spoiler

Swashbuckler

The psionic classes should stay if a good implementation is possible. If a solution for spellbooks is find, stuff like Duskblade and Hexblade would obviously be immensely beneficial to leave in, but it requires a spellbook solution.

Prestige:

Spoiler

Abjurant Champion
Arcane Trickster
Archmage
Battleguard of Tempus
Battlerager
Battlesmith
Black Blood Cultist
Black Flame Zealot
Bladesinger
Blighter
Celebrant of Sharess
Champion of Corellon
Child of Night
Combat Medic
Diabolist
Dirgesinger
All disciple classes
Drow Judicator
Drunken Master
Duelist
Dwarven Defender
Eldritch Knight
Elemental Savant
Enlightened Fist
Eye of Gruumsh
Foe Hunter
Force Missile Mage
Forest Master
Forsaker
Frenzied Berserker
Frost Mage
Ghost-faced Killer
Harper Mage
Heartwarder
Hierophant
Hospitaler
Knight of the Chalice
Lasher
Morninglord of Lathander
Mystic Theurge
Orc Warlod
Order of the Bow Initiate
Peerless Archer
Purple Dragon Knight
Ravager
Reaping Mauler
Red Wizard of Thay
Sacred Fist
Sacred Purifier
Shadow Thief of Amn
Shifter
Spelldancer
Spellsword
Stormlord
Sublime Chord
Talon of Tiamat
Talontar Blightlord
Tempest
Thayan Knight
All Thrall classes
Virtuoso
War Wizard of Cormyr
Warchief
Warforged Juggernaught
Wild Mage

Bear in mind I think the psionic prestige classes should stay in case psionic classes can be implemented well. The same goes for many classes that require a spellbook fix.

I haven't made a list for feats... it's quite a bit of work, because there are some important once that absolutely need to be kept (Improved Grapple, Practiced Spellcaster), but almost everything else needs to be removed, and since the feat list in the PRC manual includes tons of class features, it's a hell of a lot of work to look through and make sure everything important is kept, since you have to wade through a ton of stuff that should be removed.

 

[luj1]

Does anyone have any idea why I don't get drops in Siege of Shadowdale EE? Playing on Steam right now (downloaded the module ingame)

What I mean is that some enemies have empty loot. But when I come back later, they have items? For example Goblin chieftain in Sinkhole didnt drop his head, I came back later and there it is? This happens with quest items and breaks the game for me

Never heard of anything like this before, the only thing that sounds even remotely similar was a one-time bug in what I played of Fate of Daggerdale when a scripted dialogue check wouldn't update until a save/load.

And I've played SoS EE, albeit the Vault distribution, maybe give that a go and see. It's a long shot, I doubt that's the problem, but may be worth checking.

I fixed it by undoing some workshop content, tnx anyway Gargaune

 

[luj1]

I have noticed there's a delay in the appearance of "remains" after defeating enemies in the EE. Sometimes you have to wait a few seconds for the corpse to "disintegrate" then its remains fade into view. The same thing happens with chests that you bash open.

That's normal. Happens in DE too. And used to happen even pre-DE when NwN came out 20 years ago.

luj1, you do realize I was replying to you, right?

Yup. What you are talking about is the standard NwN loot "fade in" that's been around since release. It's intentional and not a bug.

Lol facepalm what? That's vanilla functionality you retarded old man. Just say you never played NwN before, it's okay.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I have noticed there's a delay in the appearance of "remains" after defeating enemies in the EE. Sometimes you have to wait a few seconds for the corpse to "disintegrate" then its remains fade into view. The same thing happens with chests that you bash open.

That's normal. Happens in DE too. And used to happen even pre-DE when NwN came out 20 years ago.

luj1, you do realize I was replying to you, right?

Yup. What you are talking about is the standard NwN loot "fade in" that's been around since release. It's intentional and not a bug.

Lol facepalm what? That's vanilla functionality you retarded old man. Just say you never played NwN before, it's okay.

Crispy putting two and two together I guess what's happening is that luj1's finding remains bags of the deceased adversaries, which are empty at first look but filled with loot later.

 

[cretin]

So i went to download Against the Cult of the Reptile God through the ingame browser, and it was 4.9 gigs of missing content. Ok fine whatever, but speeds were shit so I went looking on the net and saw it on the vault, and that it requires CEP 2.65. Cool, CEP is 1.65 gigs archived. Installed CEP, thought it was all sweet, went back into the game and tried downloading the module again. 3.9 gigs of missing content. The module is 12mb on the vault. WTF is going on here, can someone illuminate me?

 

[luj1]

So i went to download Against the Cult of the Reptile God through the ingame browser, and it was 4.9 gigs of missing content.

That's normal

Also you don't need CEP. That 5 GB download is all you need on EE/Steam

 

[luj1]

Never played Bard until now (SoSEE)

Observations on the class (early game),

- frail but decent in ranged combat with buffs
- summons are your friend
- Protection vs Evil/Good nets you a cheaper version of Clarity (mind spell immunity)
- due to arcane spell failure, robes or such + bracers of armor / ring of protection are a good combo
- you kinda need to spread your attributes a little bit (I dumped WIS only)
- Fighter levels are a good multiclass
- you need to rely on consumables/scrolls/wands but it's a fun way to play

 

[Lacrymas]

It depends on the build. Ranged Bard is usually a trap and you have to know what you are doing or are planning to do (like going Arcane Archer f.e.). A STR-based Bard with heavy armor proficiency is quite powerful and doesn't rely on summons or scrolls.

 

[Cpt. Dallas]

I can't get to neverwintervault.org . Common issue? Is nexusmods a reasonable alternative?

 

[Lacrymas]

After going through the base class list from the PRC, I kinda don't like any of them with maybe two exceptions that I wouldn't clamor to be included anyway (Favoured Soul and Warlock). Almost if not all of the "extra" base classes fall into 3 categories.

1. Other base class but slightly different or a combination of other base classes. This is your Knights, Samurai, Ninjas, Marshals, Swashbucklers, Shamans, Scouts, etc. Most of them allow you to skip a feat, especially weapon proficiencies/foci/Weapon Finesse-type feats, or give you types of actions that aren't available to other classes just because (Knight is particularly guilty of this).

2. Those that invent their own mechanics or are outside the mechanics other classes are beholden to. I hate these especially. They include ones that are overly complicated or ones which have their own resource pools that allow them to ignore rules. Beguilers, Archivists, Binders, Duskblades, Truenamers, Factotum, Incarnates, all psionic classes etc.

3. Special snowflakes. These are either overly specific or start out as high concept, mostly just a power fantasy that isn't earned, or are already a complete character build that LARP as a base class. Dread Necromancer, Dragon Shaman, Dragonfire Adept, Shadowcaster, Warblade, etc.

As for the two that I would tolerate being included, Favored Soul and Warlock, it's more about how we accept other base classes. Favoured Soul is basically a divine Sorcerer, but I've hated the Sorcerer since forever because it's just a Wizard but slightly different. If someone can make a strong case for Sorcerer, I don't see why Favoured Soul wouldn't make the cut. Warlocks are more of a slippery slope and I personally probably wouldn't include them if I'm super conservative about what makes it in. I can easily put it in the classes which create their own mechanics due to Eldritch Blast. What does Warlock actually synergize with? It's one of those classes which are best left singleclass or paired with prestige classes which directly buff their one gimmick, like Hellfire Warlock. It not synergizing with anything is exactly one of the reasons why I dislike classes with their own mechanics. They represent the move towards streamlined character building that plagues modern 5E and Pathfinder where the only choice you make is what class to choose in the beginning or at most what subclass to pick a few levels in. Actually, I talked myself out of it, I wouldn't include Warlock. Favoured Soul only and it can go either way.

I'll go through the prestige classes some other time because the list is ginormous.

 

[Poseidon00]

Damn I forgot I can blitz through the OC by just creating a dude, getting 15 levels in HoTU and then dropping him back.
So I did that because I am bored and then I realize that random loot is level scaled lmao.

To an extent, mobs are too. Not as high as 15 in chapter 1, but you get different types of spawns and in greater numbers depending on your level. Considering there was no other place to level a character when the OC came out, I am surprised they put in so much thought.

Never played Bard until now (SoSEE)

Observations on the class (early game),

- frail but decent in ranged combat with buffs
- summons are your friend
- Protection vs Evil/Good nets you a cheaper version of Clarity (mind spell immunity)
- due to arcane spell failure, robes or such + bracers of armor / ring of protection are a good combo
- you kinda need to spread your attributes a little bit (I dumped WIS only)
- Fighter levels are a good multiclass
- you need to rely on consumables/scrolls/wands but it's a fun way to play

It's very useful to take spell focus (enchantment) and greater spell focus, then dip 3-4 levels into fighter. At most, you lose 1 caster level but gain enough to make it worth.

Crafting wands is also a solid option, as they come with quite a lot of charges for very little gold.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

To an extent, mobs are too. Not as high as 15 in chapter 1, but you get different types of spawns and in greater numbers depending on your level. Considering there was no other place to level a character when the OC came out, I am surprised they put in so much thought.

Yeah, that also happened. More targets to great cleave into are always welcome anyway.

 

[Gargaune]

I can't get to neverwintervault.org . Common issue?

Loaded fine for me just now. Maybe try clearing browser cache if it's still hanging.

To an extent, mobs are too. Not as high as 15 in chapter 1, but you get different types of spawns and in greater numbers depending on your level. Considering there was no other place to level a character when the OC came out, I am surprised they put in so much thought.

Multiplayer. OC encounters had to be scalable to different party sizes and different player levels.

Plus the OC may nudge you towards its preferred order of doing things but it doesn't force you, when exactly you tackle a particular quest or area can vary quite widely.

 

[Poseidon00]

To an extent, mobs are too. Not as high as 15 in chapter 1, but you get different types of spawns and in greater numbers depending on your level. Considering there was no other place to level a character when the OC came out, I am surprised they put in so much thought.
Multiplayer. OC encounters had to be scalable to different party sizes and different player levels.

Plus the OC may nudge you towards its preferred order of doing things but it doesn't force you, when exactly you tackle a particular quest or area can vary quite widely.

Good point, I think it was multiplayer. The scaling is too high for it to merely be the fact that the areas are nonlinear, it goes well beyond the max intended level for the chapter.

 

[Grunker]

2. Those that invent their own mechanics or are outside the mechanics other classes are beholden to. I hate these especially. They include ones that are overly complicated or ones which have their own resource pools that allow them to ignore rules. Beguilers, Archivists, Binders, Duskblades, Truenamers, Factotum, Incarnates, all psionic classes etc.

Incidentally, these are all classes that get automatically axed because they either need radial or dialogue window manipulation to even have their spellbooks work.

You’re wrong about Psionics though. 3rd ed’s take on them is simple, unintrusive and most importantly gels smoothly into the system’s framework. Hence why I would keep them if a better NWN implementation was possible.

As for base classes, I wouldn’t mind seeing them all cut, except for Swashbuckler (and Duskblade/Hexblade, if they had a fixed spellbook, but that’s neither here nor there). Swashbuckler doesn’t fit your description at all and its unique niche as an Int-based fighter really adds to the game. It's fun to play single-classed a its a decent splash addition for a few builds. It also makes Combat Expertise a more viable proposition for an interesting tank build than most other things in the game.

Warlock I think is a weird keep though. Eldritch Blast is such a mindnumbingly boring design, and I’m fairly sure Warlock needs dialogue windows for its spellbook. Doesn’t Favored Soul also need that? Wasn’t the whole point to get rid of that stuff? Or is Favored Soul exempt because it uses the Cleric list?

 

[Grunker]

So, I finished the OC. That was a very weird experience.

On the one hand, NWN is easily my most disappointing RPG of all time. After playing a couple of very old RPGs as a kid which spurred the interest, Baldur's Gate really cemented that this was the genre I would love for all time. I played so much great shit then - from Wizardry to Might and Magic and GoldBox - so when NWN was announced and it would have the much more exciting 3rd ed. ruleset I was playing in PNP at the time I was pretty heavy with expectations.

That they then shat out a single character action RPG with retarded AI companions and some of the ugliest aesthetics I had ever seen was a punch to the gut, finally portenting the dark, dark ages of RPGs that would soon descend upon us.

However playing it again with a fresh perspetive, I had two novel experiences:

Firstly, I fully expected to appreciate its design as a system sandbox more than on my first go, which I definitely do. All the shittyness of a single player action RPG build around MMO logic is there, yes, but my God is NWN impressive as a tool and at getting your imagination going and just calling forth the wealth of prospects from the D&D possibility well. It's kind of wild NWN2 backed out of this direction to appease people like me, losing the only thing that made the franchise have an identity in service of mediocrity. I also appreciate NWN's aesthetics more for it - yes, they are butt ugly, but considering the technical goal/toolset design, the aesthetics have maximized the charm and D&D recognizibility possible within that frame, I can see that.

Second, I oddly recall the OC not being that bad. Don't get me wrong, I definitely remembered it wouldn't be up to snuff to previous RPGs, I remember the story being bad, the characters being non-entities and the loot being shit. But what I did not remember at all was how bare-bones it is. It feels utterly unfinished. Most dungeons feel like you're going through placeholder locations with placeholder characters and placeholder encounters. The legendary, shrewd and grizzled orc king Obould Many-Arrows being a generic Ogre-skin with generic "Orc stupid" dialogue is perhaps the most indicative of how the whole campaign feels. Or how completely uninteresting and underexplained Aribeth's fall from grace is. I've always found Arthas' desend into evil to be the most overrated storyline of video games period since it is basically stuffed with completely stale cliches from beginning to end - and ultimately comes down to him putting on The One Ring - but it is a masterpiece compared to Aribeth's non-character. Which is doubly fun to say because she probably gets the most character development out of the entire cast. For more examples of how undercooked it is, the fact that there are sixteen million chests and they're all trapped and filled with exactly 1 Alexandrite makes the OC feel like a prototype ready for its first playtest. I didn't at all appreciate as a younger guy how incredibly whack the campaign actually is - which is funny, because I hated it when I originally played it, and even then, I didn't realize how absolutely awful it was. I liked the Snowglobe (though less than I remember liking it as a young man), I like the brothers' quest (this one felt like it was from a different game because it had an actual narrative arc and an interesting D&D world tie in) and that's about all I think I liked. The one thing I did appreciate about the campaign is how open it is - every chapter just dumps you in a town and says "go nuts", which is cool.

As for the gameplay, I went in this time telling myself to expect "D&D Diablo", and it definitely helped my enjoyment that I had incredibly low expectations for moment-to-moment gameplay going in. A massive detractor on NWN's average-but-functional single character action-combat is the fact that your henchman is so utterly retarded. It has all the issues of the much older Fallout companion AI but because this game is real-time, the issue is much, much more pronounced. I had a fairly balanced combat experience which I was very happy about, but a lot of that came down to Sharwyn being absolutely, functionally useless *until* she had casts all her spells and could act as a semi-competent melee character. Unless anything hit her instead of me, in which case she would be dead in one second anyway. More likely, though, she would get shredded instantly by attempting spellcasting without casting defensively in melee range. You might think ranged would be a better choice, but no - her AI is so retarded she would often run up to mobs to ranged attack them, and if she didn't, a mob or two would run to her, and since she can't switch weapons, she would just die to AoOs.

However the core of NWN's actiony gameplay, that is, the part that concerns your own character, is functional enough. It is simultaneously the thing that holds back the game from something that could ever be qualified as good relative to its peers, though - you can make the most ingenious module ever with the most impressive interactions, deepest story and most engaging world, but it'll still be stuck with a pseudo-D&D-MMO's awkward little brother as a companion.

For all these negatives, my experience with the OC was more enjoyable that I had anticipated. For all its faults, NWN is kind of a technical marvel. It's the diametrical opposite of NWN2 in how everything from the camera to how combat animations are synced so blades can hit each other if two opponents locked in combat miss, to how things snap, sound and feel, kinaesthetically, is just technially really, really well-designed, polished and cared for. It just feels more functional in your hands than most RPGs ever made, which is a really big achievement considering the enormous amount of variables in the game. I can't help but feel cheated that we didn't get more functional gameplay in the same engine.

Thus, I think my retread of NWN's OC softened my critcism of the game somewhat. While it certainly encapsulates everything that would go wrong with RPG design for the next decade, it is too honestly dedicated to capturing D&D as a system of experiences to deserve my total condemnation.

 

[Lacrymas]

2. Those that invent their own mechanics or are outside the mechanics other classes are beholden to. I hate these especially. They include ones that are overly complicated or ones which have their own resource pools that allow them to ignore rules. Beguilers, Archivists, Binders, Duskblades, Truenamers, Factotum, Incarnates, all psionic classes etc.

Incidentally, these are all classes that get automatically axed because they either need radial or dialogue window manipulation to even have their spellbooks work.

You’re wrong about Psionics though. 3rd ed’s take on them is simple, unintrusive and most importantly gels smoothly into the system’s framework. Hence why I would keep them if a better NWN implementation was possible.

As for base classes, I wouldn’t mind seeing them all cut, except for Swashbuckler (and Duskblade/Hexblade, if theyhad a fixed spellbook, but that’s neither here nor there). Swashbuckler doesn’t fit your description at all (well, it gets _one_ bonus feat, but come now…), and its unique niche as an Int fighter adds to the game.

Warlock I think is a weird keep though. Eldritch Blast is such a mindnumbingly boring design, and I’m fairly sure Warlock needs dialogue windows for its spellbook. Doesn’t Favored Soul also need that? Wasn’t the whole point to get rid of that stuff? Or is Favored Soul exempt because it uses the Cleric list?

I talked myself out of Warlock in the end, it has the one gimmick (Eldritch Blast) that doesn't synergize with anything else. Favoured Soul is ok if you also consider Sorcerer to be ok. I've never liked the Sorcerer because it's Wizard but slightly different, so ymmv. I don't like FS getting wings, though, so I'd cut that if the class is implemented. My problem with Swashbuckler is that its entire shtick can be replicated by a feat, i.e. it's a Fighter but slightly different.

As for Psions, what I don't like about them is the augmentation feature that also requires their own resource pool. No other class has such a thing and the separate resource pool is a big no-no. I don't like Duskblade because it breaks the action economy of the game, i.e. it ignores rules all others are beholden to, by being able to attack and "cast" a spell at the same time. Hexblade can work, but not as a base class, it has to be a prestige class and it probably shouldn't get a spellbook either because no other prestige class in NWN has one.

 

[Grunker]

Favoured Soul is ok if you also consider Sorcerer to be ok. I've never liked the Sorcerer because it's Wizard but slightly different, so ymmv. I don't like FS getting wings, though, so I'd cut that if the class is implemented.

The most important question is whether it works with spellbooks, no? Have you tested it?

My problem with Swashbuckler is that its entire shtick can be replicated by a feat, i.e. it's a Fighter but slightly different.

What feat makes a Fighter maxing int an interesting proposition? Is this another EK situation where you have no concrete examples and won't respond to mine or Poseidon's..?

I don't like Duskblade because it breaks the action economy of the game, i.e. it ignores rules all others are beholden to

Wizards can literally stop time. The whole point of class design is to allow fun exceptions to rules that are limited in scope and as balanced as possible. Duskblade can't attack more than once in a round where it does this and is very limited with the spells it can do it with.

Arguing against Duskblade contradicts your earlier point; the problem with playing Gish in D&D is that most often it is just a Fighter that casts some buffs on himself because in combat you either attack or you cast and you have to dedicate yourself to one of those things.

I think the Duskblade's solution to this issue is a too binary, but it is much more interesting than "Fighter who casts Bull's strength before a fight", so it's still a positive inclusion to NWN.

Ultimately it's a moot point though since we agree everything that needs dialogue windows or the radial menu to manage its spellbook should be taken out, and Duskblade is the primary example of this.

 

[Lacrymas]

I wasn't going through the list with the mindset of whether it's well implemented in the PRC, but as a character class and how it would gel with the others already present in NWN. If a class requires weird workarounds in the PRC, it obviously shouldn't be included.

What feat makes a Fighter maxing int an interesting proposition? Is this another EK situation where you have no concrete examples and won't respond to mine or Poseidon's..?

My point is that Swashbuckler can be replaced entirely by implementing a single feat that adds your intelligence bonus to your damage rolls with light weapons. It being a feat anyone can pick up is actually better because you don't have to be a Swashbuckler just for this and will open up more build options.

As for Duskblades and such, I don't like "exceptions to the rules" (regardless of whether it leads to the char being over- or underpowered) because there's no point to having rules in that case. It's the reason why I don't like Chanter and Cipher in Pillars of Eternity. D&D classes inherently have limited design space due to how the system works, it's just the nature of the beast. It's still a wonder that we could get the diversity we did with 3E and it requires a very conservative and curated list of available classes to be coherent.

 

[Grunker]

I wasn't going through the list with the mindset of whether it's well implemented in the PRC, but as a character class and how it would gel with the others already present in NWN. If a class requires weird workarounds in the PRC, it obviously shouldn't be included.

For me this is 90% of the point of a PRC Redux. That it’s current implementation is way too intrusive and janky. It’s hard to make suggestions to Poseidon without knowing what classes can’t be ported if you don’t know what classes do not work within the framework of NWN on a technical level. The way I see it, this is the one criteria we all agree on, right?

My point is that Swashbuckler can be replaced entirely by implementing a single feat that adds your intelligence bonus to your damage rolls with light weapons. It being a feat anyone can pick up is actually better because you don't have to be a Swashbuckler just for this and will open up more build options.

Way too OP. It essentially means that you pay 1 feat slot (very cheap especially in NWN with lack of good feats) instead of 3 character levels.

As for Duskblades and such, I don't like "exceptions to the rules" because there's no point to having rules in that case. It's the reason why I don't like Chanter and Cipher in Pillars of Eternity. D&D classes inherently have limited design space due to how the system works, it's just the nature of the beast. It's still a wonder that we could get the diversity we did with 3E and it requires a very conservative and curated list of available classes to be coherent.

3E is the opposite of conservative and curated. Your observation is also faulty. You could use your argument against most of the spells in the game, for example. It’s how rule systems are built; you make a set of rules and then you create assets that are exceptions in interesting ways. Every card in a TCG is essentially an exception to the game’s rules.

The broader point you’re getting at is that the exception should be balanced and intuitive within the framework of the rules. And that’s exactly Duskblade: it gives up the ability to attack multiple rounds to instead be able to attack once and cast a very restricted set of spells in that attack.

 

[Lacrymas]

3E is definitely the opposite of conservative and curated. I'm saying it needs curation. NWN already did that, maybe not with a perfect list, but almost all the classes are more or less coherent within the matrix it created (Purple Dragon Knight being the exception), so what we are trying to do is see whether we can add some more without breaking the ecosystem.

While the Swashbuckler feat might end up OP if it can be picked up by anyone, my other reservation with leaving Swashbuckler as it is is that it's not a good class in general outside this one thing, so everyone would just dip 3 levels and never use it past that. Maybe have it as a prestige class with 5 levels and the int to damage feature being granted within those 5 levels somewhere, depending on balance.

 

[luj1]

A STR-based Bard with heavy armor proficiency is quite powerful and doesn't rely on summons or scrolls.

How do you circumvent spell failure?

 

[luj1]

It's very useful to take spell focus (enchantment) and greater spell focus

Why Enchantment out of all?

 

[Lacrymas]

A STR-based Bard with heavy armor proficiency is quite powerful and doesn't rely on summons or scrolls.

How do you circumvent spell failure?

You unequip the armor and shield to cast your buffs, then reequip them. There are a couple of spells that lack a somatic component as well. Then you get Still Spell at one point.