NWN Neverwinter Nights (NWN & NWN2) Modules Thread

[Lacrymas]

I already explained the reason - you can already achieve what it wants to do. Reduction of bloat is a worthy goal in and of itself.

 

[Grunker]

EK is not bloat. It’s the the literal opposite: the most generic, requirementless way to get BAB and spell progression. That it is not super strong is only a plus in my book.

 

[Lacrymas]

You can get that by being a Fighter/arcane caster of some sort. Like I said before, prestige classes shouldn't be just a combination of base classes but better.

 

[Poseidon00]

According to the current devs, the finicky dialogue window implementation is no longer necessary, it would just take long, hard work to port the current usability to add actual spellbooks and level-up selection of stuff (at least that’s my interpretation of the Discord faq).

Incidentally, Poseidon00, I would only be down to help with text editing for a PRC light that literally did away with everything requiring the dialogue window or other pseudosolutions. Otherwise I don’t really see the point

Of course. But bear in mind i'm just going to cut these things for convenience sake, rather the re-implement them if I do this. I'm just doing it for ease of use and not to restore somebody else's work.

 

[notpl]

Beamdog should get on it. As for which prestige classes should stay, I have to go through the manual to check more thoroughly, but there are a few things missing from base game. Mystic Theurge to combine divine and arcane classes. Some spellcasting prestige classes in general because the only one is Pale Master. However, I don't think they should straight up be better at spellcasting than base classes - they should come with other stuff instead. No Red Wizards or Arcane Scholars f.e. Some people would say Eldritch Knight would be a good addition, but I wouldn't necessarily say so because the class itself is weak due to opportunity costs. On top of that, there already are enough melee builds that buff themselves, so EK won't bring much to the table with its most viable playstyle. A nature prestige class that isn't the Shifter (or any class that polymorphs itself) won't go amiss either. That's about it. What prestige classes shouldn't be is some combination of base classes but better.

I think "combination of base classes but better" is one of the most acceptable use-cases for prestige classes. Rogue prestige classes like arcane trickster are especially vital for this because Rogue is just a plain shitty class in video game adaptations, it always has been and always will be, so letting people access some of its features without making a totally useless character is a plus.

Let's not pretend NWN is already some flawless ideal of balance that modders must be careful not to disrupt. It's a bad implementation of what was already a very, very bad p&p ruleset.

 

[Lacrymas]

Rogue is definitely not weak in NWN. There are two reasons I don't like prestige classes being a combination of base classes but better. The first is that it's power creep, nice and simple. The second is more philosophical. We already have a lot of base classes to work with, so prestige classes that are a combination of those but better feels like we are waiting for the devs/designers to come up with a prepackaged idea we can use, as opposed to us using our own creativity to create what we want. Prestige classes should fill in gaps or allow stuff that isn't already possible. Some people don't like the idea of prestige classes in the first place too, they think they stifle creativity with excessive requirements that force us to go down a very specific build, so I'm definitely not the most militant about this.

 

[Grunker]

You can get that by being a Fighter/arcane caster of some sort.

No, you literally can't, lol

prestige classes shouldn't be just a combination of base classes but better.

This is not only an arbitrary opinion, it also goes directly against your own logic of keeping Mystic Theurge. There is no difference whatsoever between doing fighter 5/wizard 5 to emulate an Eldritch Knight and going wizard 5/cleric 5 to emulate a Mystic Theurge, except for the fact that EK can be used much more feasibly/viably because it does require you to shoot yourself completely in the foot during the lead-in (I love mystic theurge because of that, mind you, but that's not the point). Your argument is entirely arbitrary.

 

[Poseidon00]

You can get that by being a Fighter/arcane caster of some sort.

No, you literally can't, lol

It's a much more delicate balance and it's almost never worth it. The two ways you can try to make it work are to make a classic Paladin/Sorcerer and lean in to Charisma, using Divine Might and Divine Shield to boost your combat, or go Fighter/Wizard and lean into a more specialized playstyle. EK just makes everything smoother and less autistic without throwing things out of balance, and it's similar to the F/M of previous editions. To me it's a must-keep. Fun for bards especially, though most overlook that.

 

[Grunker]

You can get that by being a Fighter/arcane caster of some sort.

No, you literally can't, lol

It's a much more delicate balance and it's almost never worth it. The two ways you can try to make it work are to make a classic Paladin/Sorcerer and lean in to Charisma, using Divine Might and Divine Shield to boost your combat, or go Fighter/Wizard and lean into a more specialized playstyle. EK just makes everything smoother and less autistic without throwing things out of balance, and it's similar to the F/M of previous editions. To me it's a must-keep. Fun for bards especially, though most overlook that.

Incidentally, I looked at your Orc Warlord/Warchief build and it looks hilarious. Don't you find that the summons get useless pretty early since they don't scale, though?

 

[Lacrymas]

You can get that by being a Fighter/arcane caster of some sort.

No, you literally can't, lol

prestige classes shouldn't be just a combination of base classes but better.

This is not only an arbitrary opinion, it also goes directly against your own logic of keeping Mystic Theurge. There is no difference whatsoever between doing fighter 5/wizard 5 to emulate an Eldritch Knight and going wizard 5/cleric 5 to emulate a Mystic Theurge. Your argument is entirely arbitrary.

You can be a melee fighter who buffs himself, regardless of whether you achieve it by being a Fighter/Wizard or whatever else. There are literally hundreds of ways to do this. Not so much with Mystic Theurge. I already explained my reasoning with it too - Cleric/Wizard will either be severely underpowered compared to a "pure" spellcaster due to staggered spells levels or come online way too late (like lvl 38ish late).

 

[Poseidon00]

You can get that by being a Fighter/arcane caster of some sort.

No, you literally can't, lol

It's a much more delicate balance and it's almost never worth it. The two ways you can try to make it work are to make a classic Paladin/Sorcerer and lean in to Charisma, using Divine Might and Divine Shield to boost your combat, or go Fighter/Wizard and lean into a more specialized playstyle. EK just makes everything smoother and less autistic without throwing things out of balance, and it's similar to the F/M of previous editions. To me it's a must-keep. Fun for bards especially, though most overlook that.

Incidentally, I looked at your Orc Warlord/Warchief build and it looks hilarious. Don't you find that the summons get useless pretty early since they don't scale, though?

To me it's more about the flavor. You should be able to play as a strongman with a bunch of summonable lackeys. They aren't useless though. If I need them, I need them against casters, and they can tank spells for me if I play my cards right. Or provide a distraction in other ways. They are defensive meat shields at higher levels, not extra damage.

 

[Grunker]

You can get that by being a Fighter/arcane caster of some sort.

No, you literally can't, lol

It's a much more delicate balance and it's almost never worth it. The two ways you can try to make it work are to make a classic Paladin/Sorcerer and lean in to Charisma, using Divine Might and Divine Shield to boost your combat, or go Fighter/Wizard and lean into a more specialized playstyle. EK just makes everything smoother and less autistic without throwing things out of balance, and it's similar to the F/M of previous editions. To me it's a must-keep. Fun for bards especially, though most overlook that.

Incidentally, I looked at your Orc Warlord/Warchief build and it looks hilarious. Don't you find that the summons get useless pretty early since they don't scale, though?

To me it's more about the flavor. You should be able to play as a strongman with a bunch of summonable lackeys. They aren't useless though. If I need them, I need them against casters, and they can tank spells for me if I play my cards right.

On another note, Leadership requires the dialogue window, and it's probably hard getting around that requirement for that feat in particular.

 

[Poseidon00]

You can get that by being a Fighter/arcane caster of some sort.

No, you literally can't, lol

It's a much more delicate balance and it's almost never worth it. The two ways you can try to make it work are to make a classic Paladin/Sorcerer and lean in to Charisma, using Divine Might and Divine Shield to boost your combat, or go Fighter/Wizard and lean into a more specialized playstyle. EK just makes everything smoother and less autistic without throwing things out of balance, and it's similar to the F/M of previous editions. To me it's a must-keep. Fun for bards especially, though most overlook that.

Incidentally, I looked at your Orc Warlord/Warchief build and it looks hilarious. Don't you find that the summons get useless pretty early since they don't scale, though?

To me it's more about the flavor. You should be able to play as a strongman with a bunch of summonable lackeys. They aren't useless though. If I need them, I need them against casters, and they can tank spells for me if I play my cards right.

On another note, Leadership requires the dialogue window, and it's probably hard getting around that requirement for that feat in particular.

In this one particular case I might look into if the EE provides an alternative solution, because I actually care about that one.

 

[Lacrymas]

Btw Grunker, are you sure Bladesinger grants you new spells/higher level spells? The PrC manual says it only increases caster level and that it doesn't grant you new spells. I wanted to check something with Mystic Theurge and it says the same.

 

[Pikoman]

On the topic of the PRC and the custom stuff as a whole I agree that bloat and questionable quality and balance of 80% of the full package is a problem. Not being able to modify it and pick only certain things easily without painstakingly removing lines from the 2da and other files is what has prevented me from giving it a spin.

Probably repeating myself, but PW devs should stop being anal and overprotective about their code already. The best custom content creators are mostly in the multiplayer scene and every big server has a plethora of custom classes/feats/races added which from my own experience and at least from what I know about the servers I've not played in are all at least okay balanced. If anything, multiplayer servers have already kind of done the currently discussed hypothetical redux of the PRC - you've got hexblades, favoured souls, warlocks, tieflings, aasimar, fighter combat stances and much more from 3.5. It's a shame those things can't be replicated(I think) in a singleplayer environment without being a dev on said server and having access to the files in question.

Btw, it seems that a new server has popped up and is currently above POTM and Arelith. May be good to shake up their hegemony for a bit and all in all exciting to have a new big server.

 

[Grunker]

Btw Grunker, are you sure Bladesinger grants you new spells/higher level spells? The PrC manual says it only increases caster level and that it doesn't grant you new spells. I wanted to check something with Mystic Theurge and it says the same.

The wording is off or the manual is outdated. The wording because it might just indicate that you don't actually get to choose new spells on level-up, you have to learn them through scrolls, which is what it might be indicating.

Here is my spellbook as a Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Wizard 2/Bladesinger 5:

As you can see, my slots and spell level access is entirely accurate to Wiz2/Bld5 with Int25 (as I have with my gear on).

EDIT: Or perhaps we've misunderstood each other all along and picking spells on the level-up screen is what you meant. In which case, yes, the mod doesn't let you do that with Bladesinger. I don't know RAW in this case, but if RAW it would allow you to choose, then no, the mod doesn't let you do that. I consider that a very minor issue though.

 

[Crispy]

You're quite.... hasty.

 

[Grunker]

Or wait a sec, are you refering to this from the PRC manual tables:

"+1 caster level of existing spellcasting class"

?

That's just one of the many poor templating errors of the PRC, though I believe it's also a templating error that can be found in some actual, published material.

 

[Grunker]

You're quite.... hasty.

Even with Practiced Spellcaster, which is a feat I *just* got, my caster level is 9 (2 + 3 + 4), so Haste only lasts 9 rounds.

 

[Lacrymas]

Btw Grunker, are you sure Bladesinger grants you new spells/higher level spells? The PrC manual says it only increases caster level and that it doesn't grant you new spells. I wanted to check something with Mystic Theurge and it says the same.

EDIT: Or perhaps we've misunderstood each other all along and picking spells on the level-up screen is what you meant. In which case, yes, the mod doesn't let you do that with Bladesinger. I don't know RAW in this case, but if RAW it would allow you to choose, then no, the mod doesn't let you do that. I consider that a very minor issue though.

You can learn new spells as a Wizard/Pale Master through scrolls as well, this was never an issue. The problem with spellcasting prestige classes (mostly just Pale Master in this case) is that they don't progress your spell levels or grant you new spells at all (only spell slots). As far as I know, the engine itself doesn't allow this and that's why I'm surprised that you said the PrC has solved it. "Caster level" only matters for things like "lasts 1 round per level" or for the purposes of dispel protection. At least as far as I know.

 

[Grunker]

Btw Grunker, are you sure Bladesinger grants you new spells/higher level spells? The PrC manual says it only increases caster level and that it doesn't grant you new spells. I wanted to check something with Mystic Theurge and it says the same.

EDIT: Or perhaps we've misunderstood each other all along and picking spells on the level-up screen is what you meant. In which case, yes, the mod doesn't let you do that with Bladesinger. I don't know RAW in this case, but if RAW it would allow you to choose, then no, the mod doesn't let you do that. I consider that a very minor issue though.

You can learn new spells as a Wizard/Pale Master through scrolls as well, this was never an issue.

Obviously, yes, but Wizard also gets to pick spells on level-up (as in, when you reach level 5, you can add e.g. fireball and haste to your spellbook). Bladesinger does not. I think that's RAW as well, but I'm unsure.

The problem with spellcasting prestige classes (mostly just Pale Master in this case) is that they don't progress your spell levels or grant you new spells at all (only spell slots). As far as I know, the engine itself doesn't allow this and that's why I'm surprised that you said the PrC has solved it.

Then we understood each other, and this is definitely not the case in PRC, as you can see from my screencap.

"Caster level" only matters for things like "lasts 1 round per level" or for the purposes of dispel protection. At least as far as I know

Exactly. The templating of the PRC manual is just wrong here.

 

[Crispy]

Oh man I completely forgot you can only have one henchman at a time in OC.

Oh well, I'll roll with the bard since she can pick locks, heal, and shoot her bow. Plus she's probably decent at melee. Also, I can tell her to only use ranged, which should generally keep her out of trouble. Not to belabor the point, but why DoIWD doesn't have this basic functionality I still don't understand.

 

[luj1]

I finished Cult of the Reptile God, which other module could I use to transfer this char to Wizardry-style? I am level 7

Which one do you recommend guys? Lacrymas

 

[Lacrymas]

I finished Cult of the Reptile God, which other module could I use to transfer this char to Wizardry-style? I am level 7

Which one do you recommend guys? Lacrymas

Darkness over Daggerford or Crimson Tides of Tethyr. Or you can check out other pnp conversions like Reptile God, but I really haven't played any and don't know which to recommend.

 

[luj1]

Don't like DoD cause I'm allergic to companions but thanks anyway

Reptile God was an excellent module to say the least, I only encountered 1 spelling error and 1 bug (Kirin or w/e his name sometimes doesn't appear in the first cutscene, pausing the game)