NWN Neverwinter Nights (NWN & NWN2) Modules Thread

[Grunker]

I'm using PRC, though I have to say that for a game that's supposedly ultramoddable, a lot of this shit is way more wonky than it has any right to be. The way you need to pseudo-memorize spells and shit from the new classes through a combination of dialogue windows and radial menus because the spellbooks bug for anything outside normal classes for example. I like the mod a lot when it works though. Stuff like restricted resting make the experience feel more like pseudo-PNP.

I stay away from all the wonky casters and the dialog menus because that's all trash, but some classes I can't live without. I *love* the monk who gains the DoT grapple and the death grapple, it's a whole new way to play a stealth class. Bonded summoner, orc war chief, werewolf are all classes I take great joy in playing.

After some time with the mod that's exactly my conclusion. It should have been more focused; implementing those things that were possible within the framework of NWN and leaving out the rest, even if that means the mod can't implement new spellbooks at all (which really sucks, but hey). As it stands, the mod is not slick enough for me to want to give it a second run - I'm thinking I'll uninstall come Shadows of Undrentide.

That's even despite the fact that my current Swashbuckler/Bladesinger is just becoming unlocked and actually fun to play, and very balanced.

 

[Lacrymas]

Someone needs to comb through the PrC and make a separate, curated mod that includes only the classes that are both well made (this includes balanced) and fill in gaps in the base game roster. Otherwise, it's basically unusable due to bloat and potential bugs.

 

[Poseidon00]

Someone needs to comb through the PrC and make a separate, curated mod that includes only the classes that are both well made (this includes balanced) and fill in gaps in the base game roster. Otherwise, it's basically unusable due to bloat and potential bugs.

The majority of this work is simply altering the 2da files, which is very easy. It's more busywork than anything, and can easily be done.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

only the classes that are both well made (this includes balanced)

Lmao good luck finding someone who can evaluate the classes from an objective and unbiased perspective.

 

[Grunker]

Someone needs to comb through the PrC and make a separate, curated mod that includes only the classes that are both well made (this includes balanced) and fill in gaps in the base game roster. Otherwise, it's basically unusable due to bloat and potential bugs.

The majority of this work is simply altering the 2da files, which is very easy. It's more busywork than anything, and can easily be done.

More than half the mod needs to be cut I'd say, if the goal was only to leave in things which gelled 100% naturally with the game. Bladesinger is a good example, because you really wouldn't notice it being a mod. It gives a handful of unique but unremarkable bonuses, doesn't have its signature feature (the extra spell action) but is overall still semi-powerful within the context of the game. What would need to be cut is everything with its own spellbook (simply because of the weird radial menu manipulation you need to do to make them work), every natural attacker, all ToB content (radial menus and weird function) and any context-relevant PNP implementation.

Many of the hyperspecialized feat groups, the submenus, the templates, basically all of the PNP implementation (such as how familiars work) would need to be cut. I suppose you could leave the 16 hour no-rest period between rests in as an option because it isn't as intrusive as a lot of other P&P implementation. Same goes for the nuking of Tumble's AC bonus, which is the one thing I'm really going to miss from PRC.

I don't really know what Lacrymas means with balance - most of the PRC's most superflous content is very underpowered (though some combos are obvious OP), and all of it is official, Wizards of the Coast 3.5 material. There's not a single 3rd party thing in the mod. There's very little in the mod, really, that's more powerful than just rolling a base class druid in the main game (which, of course, speaks more to how overpowered the base druid is in 3.0 and Neverwinter, but the point stands). I think my main issue here is that Lacrymas touts that the class implementation in NWN proper was very deliberate and careful, which I call bullshit on, lol. From 3.0 onwards D&D's 3rd edition (and Pathfinder) have always wallowed in broken shit because the system is so deep. It has always been up to player self-regulation not to break the game in half. Or, you know, do it, if that's what you're into.

 

[luj1]

Someone needs to comb through the PrC and make a separate, curated mod that includes only the classes that are both well made (this includes balanced) and fill in gaps in the base game roster. Otherwise, it's basically unusable due to bloat and potential bugs.

Yup for me it's basically unusable and unstable

What I wrote on page 172,

PRC even has fucking spelling errors in race/class descriptions. Small letters instead of capital letters, etc. I used to get excited about this mod years ago, but when I tried it for the first time I realized it's bloated trash. Someone needs to do a PRC Redux or something. I assume 60% of it should be removed at least.

 

[luj1]

The majority of this work is simply altering the 2da files, which is very easy. It's more busywork than anything, and can easily be done.

... some classes I can't live without. I *love* the monk who gains the DoT grapple and the death grapple, it's a whole new way to play a stealth class. Bonded summoner, orc war chief, werewolf are all classes I take great joy in playing.

We can start here. Let everyone name their classes?

 

[Grunker]

Though, this leads me to a follow-up: what are the potential bugs of PRC that Lacrymas is talking about? The bug I had was absolutely bizarre and no one on the discord had ever seen anything like it - and I'm playing uncomplicated classes that really don't really change much or needs much scripting to work. I don't see a flood of technical complaints on the Discord either.

 

[Grunker]

The spelling mistakes can be really egregious but are easily corrected - I’d even be willing to assist with that if anyone took it upon themselves to make a PRC light.

 

[Poseidon00]

The spelling mistakes can be really egregious but are easily corrected - I’d even be willing to assist with that if anyone took it upon themselves to make a PRC light.

I am down to get started on this at some point in the near future. If I do it myself i'm going to be conservative about it, and only get rid of the stuff that's really bad. Use of dialog menus, terrible implementation, stuff like that. Make note of the spelling errors and i'll fix them too. My favorites (bonded summoner, reaping mauler, werewolf, orc chief) i'm keeping more-or-less as they are.

We can start here. Let everyone name their classes?

that's just a single line change in the 2DA, anyone can do that themselves if they wish

 

[notpl]

I'm using PRC, though I have to say that for a game that's supposedly ultramoddable, a lot of this shit is way more wonky than it has any right to be. The way you need to pseudo-memorize spells and shit from the new classes through a combination of dialogue windows and radial menus because the spellbooks bug for anything outside normal classes for example. I like the mod a lot when it works though. Stuff like restricted resting make the experience feel more like pseudo-PNP.

I stay away from all the wonky casters and the dialog menus because that's all trash, but some classes I can't live without. I *love* the monk who gains the DoT grapple and the death grapple, it's a whole new way to play a stealth class. Bonded summoner, orc war chief, werewolf are all classes I take great joy in playing.

After some time with the mod that's exactly my conclusion. It should have been more focused; implementing those things that were possible within the framework of NWN and leaving out the rest, even if that means the mod can't implement new spellbooks at all (which really sucks, but hey). As it stands, the mod is not slick enough for me to want to give it a second run - I'm thinking I'll uninstall come Shadows of Undrentide.

That's even despite the fact that my current Swashbuckler/Bladesinger is just becoming unlocked and actually fun to play, and very balanced.

What I don't understand is why we haven't gotten any new classes - or even just fixed spellcasting prestige classes - all this time. If you're still making new campaigns for NWN, and players have already proven to me that it is not that hard to fix NWN's extant class issues and implement new ones, then what exactly is the argument? Each one of these "premium" modules should be coming with a pile of new splat content as well.

 

[Lacrymas]

What I don't understand is why we haven't gotten any new classes - or even just fixed spellcasting prestige classes - all this time. If you're still making new campaigns for NWN, and players have already proven to me that it is not that hard to fix NWN's extant class issues and implement new ones, then what exactly is the argument? Each one of these "premium" modules should be coming with a pile of new splat content as well.

The engine can't handle prestige classes furthering the spell levels of your base class(es). They can only give you spell slots. But you are correct that some premium modules should probably come with some new prestige classes. Bastard of Kosigan does come with two additional prestige classes invented by the author, so it is possible.

 

[notpl]

What I don't understand is why we haven't gotten any new classes - or even just fixed spellcasting prestige classes - all this time. If you're still making new campaigns for NWN, and players have already proven to me that it is not that hard to fix NWN's extant class issues and implement new ones, then what exactly is the argument? Each one of these "premium" modules should be coming with a pile of new splat content as well.

The engine can't handle prestige classes furthering the spell levels of your base class(es). They can only give you spell slots. But you are correct that some premium modules should probably come with some new prestige classes. Bastard of Kosigan does come with two additional prestige classes invented by the author, so it is possible.

Then why is the PRC able to do it exactly the way it should? Do the modders have access to some special resources that the literal game devs don't?

 

[Crispy]

Due to the current (imo) issues with DoIWD, which I think could be fixed relatively easily and quickly, I've decided to actually fire up the NWN OC, recreating my monk/illusionist. It's been so long that I barely remember anything about the story at all. I'm not abandoning my playthrough of Swordflight, btw.

Couple of quick questions about henchmen in the OC: I see I can't access Tomi's inventory; does that stay that way all the time? Can I alter other henchmen's inventories? What happens to their equipment as I/they level up?

Thank you.

 

[Poseidon00]

Due to the current (imo) issues with DoIWD, which I think could be fixed relatively easily and quickly, I've decided to actually fire up the NWN OC, recreating my monk/illusionist. It's been so long that I barely remember anything about the story at all. I'm not abandoning my playthrough of Swordflight, btw.

Couple of quick questions about henchmen in the OC: I see I can't access Tomi's inventory; does that stay that way all the time? Can I alter other henchmen's inventories? What happens to their equipment as I/they level up?

Thank you.

Their equipment levels up automatically, you just gotta talk to them when they reach a certain level threshold so that they level up. I thought they changed it so that their equipment could be accessed by right clicking and using the radial menus. If I am mistaken, there are mods to fix it.

 

[rogueknight333]

... I'm not abandoning my playthrough of Swordflight, btw.

Given the excessive length of the series admitted to earlier, taking the occasional break rather than trying to play it straight through might actually be a good idea.

... I thought they changed it so that their equipment could be accessed by right clicking and using the radial menus. If I am mistaken, there are mods to fix it.

I do not know if EE was supposed to alter that (I have not done anything with the OC in perhaps decades), but at least as originally released you could not access henchman inventory at all in the OC. That was a feature added in the expansions.

 

[GloomFrost]

Playing Reptile God module as a Druid is an absolute blast! So much neat reactivity you get in the forest areas! Incline.

 

[rogueknight333]

... I think my main issue here is that Lacrymas touts that the class implementation in NWN proper was very deliberate and careful, which I call bullshit on, lol...

It was probably a lucky accident rather than careful design, and certainly 3E in general is not well balanced, but the classes implemented in base NWN, while not perfect, actually are surprisingly close to being well-balanced, assuming the module author does a few things like implement reasonable resting restrictions. Far more so than in most RPGs. And I should know, having devoted ridiculous amounts of time to designing NWN encouters that will be challenging but possible for any reasonable build (with some success too, in many people's opinion).

Then why is the PRC able to do it exactly the way it should? Do the modders have access to some special resources that the literal game devs don't?

Good question. I do not know much about the inner workings of PRC, but I suspect the answer is that being modders they are more willing to consider kludgy solutions like rewriting every spell script in the game.

 

[Lacrymas]

Then why is the PRC able to do it exactly the way it should? Do the modders have access to some special resources that the literal game devs don't?

If the PrC can indeed do that, then I don't see why the devs couldn't fix Pale Master as well (which is the only prestige class this applies to iirc).

 

[Grunker]

The only thing PRC can’t do (or rather, it’s actually possible on EE, just tedious work, so no one has done it yet), is implement NEW spell books. It can handle adding to existing spellbooks just fine. My current Bladesinger has no issues improving my Wizard’s spell levels/spellbook.

 

[Grunker]

According to the current devs, the finicky dialogue window implementation is no longer necessary, it would just take long, hard work to port the current usability to add actual spellbooks and level-up selection of stuff (at least that’s my interpretation of the Discord faq).

Incidentally, Poseidon00, I would only be down to help with text editing for a PRC light that literally did away with everything requiring the dialogue window or other pseudosolutions. Otherwise I don’t really see the point

 

[Lacrymas]

Beamdog should get on it. As for which prestige classes should stay, I have to go through the manual to check more thoroughly, but there are a few things missing from base game. Mystic Theurge to combine divine and arcane classes. Some spellcasting prestige classes in general because the only one is Pale Master. However, I don't think they should straight up be better at spellcasting than base classes - they should come with other stuff instead. No Red Wizards or Arcane Scholars f.e. Some people would say Eldritch Knight would be a good addition, but I wouldn't necessarily say so because the class itself is weak due to opportunity costs. On top of that, there already are enough melee builds that buff themselves, so EK won't bring much to the table with its most viable playstyle. A nature prestige class that isn't the Shifter (or any class that polymorphs itself) won't go amiss either. That's about it. What prestige classes shouldn't be is some combination of base classes but better.

 

[Grunker]

> We need mystic theurge
> Not EK though because it’s too weak due to the opportunity cost

Uh-huh

 

[Lacrymas]

I'm aware of the irony, but Mystic Theurge will at least be a unique thing, even if it ends up a bit weak in the end. EK is just a fighter that buffs itself, we can already make that with the existing classes. Druid/Arcane caster of some kind doesn't work very well due to staggered spell levels, you'll only have access to 4-5th level spells while a pure spellcaster will already be casting 9th level spells. Either that or it will come online way too late.

 

[Grunker]

There is no reason to cut it. It is fully implemented and works flawlessly within the framework.