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Incline Nexus Now Disallowing Creators To Delete Their Mods (Aug 5 Cutoff Date Passed)

Joined
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Codex Year of the Donut
Immortal rusty_shackleford Bester
IP rights can be balanced both ways. If you want it balanced against the little guy and against privacy, I can't do anything but don't expect courts to uphold your opinion either.
You haven't made a solid case as to why you were forced to choose Bethesda's platform rather than the thousands of other possible games.

Why were you forced to purchase and create mods for Skyrim over say, Witcher 3, a similar product that has no such restrictions on user created content?
 

Bester

⚰️☠️⚱️
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Vatnik
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Bester
IP rights can be balanced both ways. If you want it balanced against the little guy and against privacy, I can't do anything but don't expect courts to uphold your opinion either.
I AM the little guy. All I want is to download mods and not be dragged into some drama cause a modder went mental and deleted his mod.

There are conversations to be had about IP and modding. But they involve topics such as "how can we forbid game companies from shutting down mods" or "how can we compensate modders for their labor".

"How can we allow modders to throw tantrums and blackmail random people" is not on the table of any sane person.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I will state again - anyone who is a pissy bitch prone to drama and deleting their own work out of spite should stay the fuck away from modding communities. These are the kinds of people who destroy modding communities, not build them up.

You know who builds them up? People who obsessively archive years worth of mod releases, build up websites that catalogue them and allow players to rate them, and modders who make breakthrough discoveries in the mod tools/engine that allow new types of mods to be made, and share those discoveries with everyone else.

The main mod community I'm active in is the Thief community, and there are several websites that host:
- all Thief fan missions ever made
- extensive tutorials on how to make your own fan missions
- collections of 3D objects made by people from the community, sharing them so others can use them in their own fan missions
- databases of reviews and descriptions that allow people to easily find the kind of fan mission they want to play

Everyone who contributes to that community knows their stuff will stay up forever. In 20 years of Thief modding, hosting sites went down and new alternatives were created. We had people leave the community but they never demanded a deletion of their contributions, they just moved on.

Same with trle.net, the hosting site for Tomb Raider fan levels made with the Tomb Raider Level Editor. There's thousands of levels on there, of varying quality. They have cool things like user ratings, a "best levels of the month" feature, a "Hall of Fame" that enshrines the most highly rated levels of all time, etc. In the many years of its existence, it only happened once that a level author requested her levels to be removed from the database because she became fed up with people who used her self-made assets without permission and then called her a bitch when she asked them to credit her. The site owners disabled the download button for her levels, and that was that.

It's the same in many modding communities. Once you release a mod, it's in the database. People will make backups for it. They will re-upload it if the last existing link dies. That's how it works.

And if you can't deal with that, you can fuck right off, because your attitude will ruin the fun for everyone else.
 

lightbane

Arcane
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
10,208
If my assumption is correct - this is also why a Mod Author can't just update their mod with an empty text file as a way to circumvent deletion.. every version of their mod will be archived.

This is cool. I was wondering if modders could circumvent this by uploading a new version that breaks the mod if they cannot delete it. Moreover, in cases where constant tinkering and arbitrary changes can be done like in Roguetech for HBS's Battletech, this is a good thing.
 

Ravielsk

Magister
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Feb 20, 2021
Messages
1,539
This was long time coming. Especially after nexus started selling subscriptions and began hosting mods for other games. Someone there must have realized that selling a subscription to a library of items that can and will randomly puff out of existence is asking for legal trouble. Besides any drama that results in mods getting deleted is just bad PR for the site, so really its a small wonder this did not happen sooner.
On top of that modern modding scene is just a huge clusterfuck of dependencies so even a single mod going down is a huge problem. I still remember how I had to install like 10 cosmetic mods just to change the look of some NPCs(and they did not even look much better afterwards). In that sort of environment the loss of any mods is a very destructive thing. The days of Morrowind and early Oblivion mods where everything was more or less standalone are long since gone.

Besides anyone bitching about this seems to be forgetting that this is how the modding scene functioned before nexus became a thing. When mods were hosted on dedicated fan site, blogs or with game magazines nobody gave a shit if the mod author decided to delete a mod or not. Hell, most of the time nobody even bothered to ask permission to use assets from someone else's mods, it was considered a given that a free mod can be freely reused by others. Only after nexus gained some sort of dominance did I first hear about people taking down their mods and demanding everyone else follow suit because now there was a singular entity that was willing to listen to their BS.
 
Self-Ejected

RNGsus

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I've saved so many fucking stupid morrowind mods over the years from deletion, I should be given some kind of participation award. You'll never know. I even saved one recently that a guy abandoned and came back later to delete.
 
Self-Ejected

RNGsus

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If my assumption is correct - this is also why a Mod Author can't just update their mod with an empty text file as a way to circumvent deletion.. every version of their mod will be archived.

This is pretty cool. A mod isn't necessarily updated because the new version works better, but because the author's taste has changed. And sometimes I don't agree with the changes.

Still awaiting "You Must Have Oblivion Gates in My Mod or you can't use it" Arthmoor to make a statement.
ahhh, open cities left you butt blasted? I remember him from oblivion. He added those gigantic flags to the castles. The flags were as big as the damn cities. :lol: Motherfucker, there weren't enough balls of yarn in the whole loot list to weave one of those.
 
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This was long time coming. Especially after nexus started selling subscriptions and began hosting mods for other games. Someone there must have realized that selling a subscription to a library of items that can and will randomly puff out of existence is asking for legal trouble. Besides any drama that results in mods getting deleted is just bad PR for the site, so really its a small wonder this did not happen sooner.
Doubt it would cause legal issues, you pay to use the site's premium features - faster download, no ads, etc - not access to the mods themselves.

They also call it "a way of donating" but I think that part could be a problem if they don't provide the stated benefits.
 

Ravielsk

Magister
Joined
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Messages
1,539
This was long time coming. Especially after nexus started selling subscriptions and began hosting mods for other games. Someone there must have realized that selling a subscription to a library of items that can and will randomly puff out of existence is asking for legal trouble. Besides any drama that results in mods getting deleted is just bad PR for the site, so really its a small wonder this did not happen sooner.
Doubt it would cause legal issues, you pay to use the site's premium features - faster download, no ads, etc - not access to the mods themselves.

They also call it "a way of donating" but I think that part could be a problem if they don't provide the stated benefits.

Even, if its still a major argument against getting a subscription. Which I suspect is the main motivator behind this move. When you are paying a premium but still have to essentially maintain your own archive thats a problem.
 

Immortal

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If my assumption is correct - this is also why a Mod Author can't just update their mod with an empty text file as a way to circumvent deletion.. every version of their mod will be archived.

This is pretty cool. A mod isn't necessarily updated because the new version works better, but because the author's taste has changed. And sometimes I don't agree with the changes.

Still awaiting "You Must Have Oblivion Gates in My Mod or you can't use it" Arthmoor to make a statement.
ahhh, open cities left you butt blasted? I remember him from oblivion. He added those gigantic flags to the castles. The flags were as big as the damn cities. :lol: Motherfucker, there weren't enough balls of yarn in the whole loot list to weave one of those.


I personally didn't use that Mod.. I just find Arthmoor an Enigma.
There is nobody more Self-Entitled, Greedy, Spineless or just flat out detrimental to the health of a Modding community.
His handling of almost any situation is almost always a shovel-to-face moment and he spends more time trying to gate keep his content then actually bug testing or creating anything.
 

Zibniyat

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
6,536
But having Oblivion gates, closed and ruined of course, all over Tamriel post-Oblivion is proper and in line with the lore as set by Oblivion. The argument that Oblivion is trash and that its lore is inconsistent with that of Morrowind is another argument. Arthmoor did come as abrasive regarding this issue, but perhaps he felt the need to protect this piece of lore.
 
Last edited:

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,395
Nexus is completely right protecting users from being completely fucked by modders doing tantrums and breaking mod dependencies. I just dunno about their service thing, sure, there was work in there because those mods wont organize themselves into mod lists alone and they have the right to charge for that service but at same time the thing they are charging for, the convenience, also depends of the work of the modders because ultimately people want the mods with the convenience so Nexus is "monetizing" the mods in a certain way.

Even if modders cant monetize their mods for legal reasons, there should be a middle ground that isnt throwing them under the bus or just allowing them to be unreasonable cunts any time they want just to make other people miserable.
 

SharkClub

Prophet
Patron
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
1,540
Strap Yourselves In
I'm taking my mod off the nexus because fuck drumpf and fuck white people!

No... what do you mean I can't delete my mod anymore... REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
 

illuknisaa

Cipher
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
674
The real issue is that these lists are pure fucking decline. Instead of modding requiring an IQ above room temperature and 3rd grade reading comprehension, now it's "push a button and watch the computer install everything for you". Good luck troubleshooting, creating compatibility patches, or updating individual mods when you never even had to learn the basics. And god help the mod makers who have to deal with entitled faggots complaining if the list tool fucks something up.

Wouldn't you rather Automate this process then do it manually?
Do you enjoy opening up 40 mod pages and scanning over everything trying to get shit working?

Even a power user who knows exactly what they are doing and read the manual.. I'd rather hit a button and go make a coffee or shit post on the codex.

It's pure fucking tedium.

But thats the fun part of playing skyrim.
 

Urthor

Prophet
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Joined
Mar 22, 2015
Messages
1,875
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
User-submitted content includes all data submitted to our services by a Nexus Mods user. Nexus Mods does not claim any ownership of your content. By submitting content to our services, you are granting an infinite, non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free license for Nexus Mods to store, distribute, copy or reproduce, edit, translate, reformat, publicly display, or perform the submitted content, at our discretion.

Itt people who never actually read the terms of service are shocked to realize that Nexus Mods, like every other Web 2.0 site on the net, demands an indefinite license to do whatever with your content when you upload it.

Because, just like Google, they do not give the slightest shit about direct human interaction with their uploaders and just want an automated platform.

If you want to control your content in life, you better have legal recourse. There's no freebies in life, you gotta watch your own bottom line.
 
Self-Ejected

RNGsus

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Apr 29, 2011
Messages
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If my assumption is correct - this is also why a Mod Author can't just update their mod with an empty text file as a way to circumvent deletion.. every version of their mod will be archived.

This is pretty cool. A mod isn't necessarily updated because the new version works better, but because the author's taste has changed. And sometimes I don't agree with the changes.

Still awaiting "You Must Have Oblivion Gates in My Mod or you can't use it" Arthmoor to make a statement.
ahhh, open cities left you butt blasted? I remember him from oblivion. He added those gigantic flags to the castles. The flags were as big as the damn cities. :lol: Motherfucker, there weren't enough balls of yarn in the whole loot list to weave one of those.


I personally didn't use that Mod.. I just find Arthmoor an Enigma.
There is nobody more Self-Entitled, Greedy, Spineless or just flat out detrimental to the health of a Modding community.
His handling of almost any situation is almost always a shovel-to-face moment and he spends more time trying to gate keep his content then actually bug testing or creating anything.
33003-4-1279070209.jpg


His first Open Cities mod was just that: open cities. Then he started adding things, then drastically overhauling the cells, deleting old versions of the mod, etc.
 

Immortal

Arcane
In My Safe Space
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Messages
5,062
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Safe Space - Don't Bulli
But having Oblivion gates, closed and ruined of course, all over Tamriel post-Oblivion is proper and in line with the lore as set by Oblivion. The argument that Oblivion is trash and that its lore is inconsistent with that if Morrisons is another argument. Arthmoor did come as abrasive regarding this issue, but perhaps he felt the need to protect this piece of lore.

> Make QoL Mod that is merely about reduction of loading screens
> Everyone loves it
> You gain recognition and adoration for your mod - life is good
> Decide this is not enough, you must now put a huge ugly eye sore into a now edited cell - causing conflicts with other mods and largely being unimportant or outside the bounds of the original mod concept
> Players dislike said feature and ask for the original mod without this feature as well
> Tell them they are ungrateful leeches and forbid anyone from using your mod or modifying it locally to remove your precious new addition


#JustModderThings

Let's not even get into him being a champion of paid steam mods.. Or trying to convert his mods to EXE binaries in an effort to lock them down so people can't use them in a way he forbids.

I could go on.. Drama swirls around him in a never ending storm of hilarity.
 
Self-Ejected

RNGsus

Self-Ejected
Joined
Apr 29, 2011
Messages
8,106
But having Oblivion gates, closed and ruined of course, all over Tamriel post-Oblivion is proper and in line with the lore as set by Oblivion. The argument that Oblivion is trash and that its lore is inconsistent with that if Morrisons is another argument. Arthmoor did come as abrasive regarding this issue, but perhaps he felt the need to protect this piece of lore.

> Make QoL Mod that is merely about reduction of loading screens
> Everyone loves it
> You gain recognition and adoration for your mod - life is good
> Decide this is not enough, you must now put a huge ugly eye sore into a now edited cell - causing conflicts with other mods and largely being unimportant or outside the bounds of the original mod concept
> Players dislike said feature and ask for the original mod without this feature as well
> Tell them they are ungrateful leeches and forbid anyone from using your mod or modifying it locally to remove your precious new addition


#JustModderThings

Let's not even get into him being a champion of paid steam mods.. Or trying to convert his mods to EXE binaries in an effort to lock them down so people can't use them in a way he forbids.

I could go on.. Drama swirls around him in a never ending storm of hilarity.
Morrowind modders are pretty chill these days. You'll see that they typically want attribution but nobody's pulling their mods anymore. A lot of the more active modders ascribe to Wrye's point of view. Not all, but nothing like in the long gone days of planet elder scrolls:

There are essentially two ways that modders view the place of their creations in the modding community: The Cathedral view, and the Parlor view.

In the Cathedral view, modding is viewed as being like a joint effort to build a cathedral. Individually, our contributions may be small – and may not be worth doing for themselves. But by each person contributing something, we construct something larger and more worthwhile than any of us could do on our own. Under this view, creations are contributions – and may not be taken back. (Just as in building a Cathedral, it would not be allowed for a person to contribute a stained glass window and then later take it back.)

The Parlor view in contrast, is the view that mods are more like privately owned works of art displayed in the modder's parlor. The modder invites others into the parlor to appreciate and enjoy the work of art – but may at any time close the parlor door and ask their guests to leave. And of course, the modder may be very selective about who they invite into their parlor. Under this view, our creations are never contributions; rather we continue to own and control them – takebacks are normal and accepted.

The Parlor view allows the creator to retain complete control of their work. But the Cathedral view creates a much larger, more enduring and more perfected body of work – and for that reason, I prefer it.

LGNPC Seyda Neen Redraft and Amulet of Scrye
To give an example... A year or two ago, Joe Stevens wrote a mod called "Less Generic NPC Seyda Neen", which fleshed out many of the characters in Seyda Neen by giving them non-generic responses to standard dialog topics. Joe eventually left the community, but another team took up the idea after him – creating LGNPC mods for a number of towns. But, after doing several towns, the LGNPC team had raised the bar considerably, and Joe's original work was looking pretty first draftish. At that point, I volunteered to redraft LGNPC Seyda Neen – fixing grammar, paragraph structure, logical inconsistencies and generally bringing it up to the current LGNPC bar.

By the Cathedral view, my redraft was a good thing – I took something that was good and made it even better. And as a result, Joe's original work is seen and appreciated more then before.

But by the Parlor view, my redraft was a bad thing, since I changed Joe's original work. According to the parlor view, I should have created a new LGNPC Seyda Neen from scratch. The result of this would have been two competing LGNPC Seyda Neen's. Not only would this have been a lot more work, but if mine were substantially better, it would have crowded out Joe's original – thus ensuring that even fewer people saw it.

Fortunately for all of us, Joe himself was more of a Cathedral sort of guy and had already given the LGNPC team permission to edit and redistribute his work. Hence, my edit had been pre-blessed.

However, not everything turned out perfectly. In my revision of Seyda Neen, I have the bard tell a ghost story related to one of my favorite mods: Ivza's Amulet of Scrye. If the player doesn't have Amulet of Scrye, then the ghost story is just an extra bit of non-generic dialog. But if the player does have AoS, then ghost story compliments it nicely, emphasizing the spookiness of that mod. However, a few weeks after I released the LGNPC Seyda Neen, Ivza decided to pull Amulet of Scrye from public distribution. To me, that felt like the glazier coming into the Cathedral, pulling out the stained glass window that he had put in earlier, and taking it home with him. But for Ivza, I think that it was just a closing of his parlor door.

It was this, combined with very vocal support for the parlor view on the forum, that led me to retire. I had several ongoing projects and there were several items that I would have liked to continue working on, but it seems like the Parlor view is predominant – and personally I don't find it that inspiring.

Contrasts and Consequences
Modding is a Joint Effort
Almost all of Morrowind modding is a group effort to one degree or another. There are very few mods that do not owe huge debts to earlier produced mods and/or to the expertise and tools provided by earlier modders.

New Work vs. Duplication
The Cathedral view vastly reduces duplication of effort – instead promoting either improvements in, or extensions of the original, or the creation of entirely new, complementary works. One doesn't have go far in reviewing one's mod library to see quite a few of these examples of mods that extend or fix earlier mods. E.g.: LGNPC, Adventure, Join All Houses, CharGen, Inferno's Island, Kivan's patches, alchemy sorters, etc.

Perfection vs. Stagnation
The Cathedral view tends towards perfection, while the Parlor view tends towards repetition and stagnation. Repetition, because earlier useful works that have been closed off have to be recreated. Stagnation, because this fails to lead to improvements, and more importantly because few modders are interested in replicating something that has already been done before. (Especially since, if they knew of the original, they probably have a copy of the original mod, and hence have no personal need to recreate it.

Integration vs. Isolation
The Cathedral view tends towards rich integration between mods. But under the Parlor view, there's not much point of integrating with another mod – since that mod can be removed at any time. Certainly, I would not have added the Amulet of Scrye references to LGNPC Seyda Neen, if I had thought Ivza might remove it.

Authorial Longetivity
Improved works are much more likely to give everyone credit. OTOH, if two works are independently created to do the same job, then it's likely that only one of them will "win" (i.e. be widely known/used) – and thus the effort and name of the loser will be lost. In competitions, there's little desire to mention your competitor in your readme; but in extensions and improvements, the norm is for the original author to get top billing.

Cathedral Effect
Many modders (such as myself) aren't interested in working in a non-Cathedral community. It's belonging to a community, creating something that outlasts our own efforts, that integrates and grows even when we're away that makes the community so interesting. But under the Parlor view, much of what has been built in the past just disappears.

Morrowind players and modders are already paying the price for the lack of prior action to support the Cathedral view. The loss of previous modding sites (Morrowind Files, Euro-Morrowind, Gamer's Roam, etc.) has meant the loss of many of the mods originally on those sites. Many of these mods are still available on people's hard disks, but without a clear re-uploading agreement, these have not been added onto new download sites. (Much of the recent dispute on the forum was on the topic of when and if these could ever be re-uploaded to new sites.)

Aside from just these lost files, other creations would likely have not been withdrawn if there were clear community standards and processes in support of the Cathedral view. I.e., if all upload and link sites had "no takebacks" policies, more of the old mods would be under no takeback licenses, and so could not have been removed.
http://wryemusings.com/Cathedral vs. Parlor.html

All the MW modders recognize each others stuff anyway, there's absolutely no glory in modding that game (maybe every ten years when TR release a major update), and moving to small servers made them more collaborative I think.
 

RobotSquirrel

Arcane
Developer
Joined
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Messages
1,961
Location
Adelaide
nexus is playing a dumb game here when ModDB exists, will willingly replace Nexus if it came to it and has no such restrictions on creators.

I'm not a fan of Nexus.
 

Denim Destroyer

Learned
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Moonglow, Britannia
The modders who complain about not being to delete their mod or repackaging it care more about their insignificantly miniscule amount of e-fame than the game they supposedly love enough to modify. Gamespy's closure bringing down untold thousands of mods for various classic games like Half-Life or the Facepunch forums shutdown eradicating one of the largest repositories of Source Engine modding shows how easy it is lose years of mods. While it is important for modders to be allowed to alter their work I heavily disagree with them being allowed to remove their mods from internet especially for the petty reason these people often find. For a safe modding future it is important to back up your favorite mods.
 

Azdul

Magister
Joined
Nov 3, 2011
Messages
3,379
Location
Langley, Virginia
nexusmods not requiring all mods to be released into the public domain when uploaded was a mistake

Nexus will never change the policy to require mods to be public domain - because it makes users life too easy and makes Nexus pointless. If mods are public domain or open source - they can be hosted on GitHub or GitLab. Free fast downloads, no need to create account, no ads, stable API that works with various tools, ability to fork at will, hack-proof, keeps backups of every version forever - and Nexus looks like warez site from 90s in comparison.

So now we have latest Nexus policy that means that some mod last updated 10 years ago, incompatible with official / unofficial patches will be kept up forever. Even if mod author himself recommends better supported, more compatible alternatives and would like to see his first attempt at modding gone, because it is written so badly that it is not fixable.
 

0wca

Learned
Joined
Jan 27, 2021
Messages
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Not here
No, I think they should be held accountable by whatever they used to be funded like Patreon. I think your distaste for modders in general is clouding your judgement. In what world is it cool and good for any website you sign up for to stop you from deleting your contributions (hello codex lmao)? Why not skip the formalities and just walk straight into Robin Scott's house to let him fuck you up the ass?

"Exposed Brain Matter" is right.

My disdain aren't for Modders or people who dedicate their time to improve a community. It's for prima donna modders who hold their mods ransom to feed their own mentally unstable narcissism.

But the mods made by these people are shit and no one plays them. Why do you want a more convenient DL option for shit mods anyway?
 

laclongquan

Arcane
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Messages
1,870,158
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Modders never own anything in the first place.

They are making things based on a game's assets: engine, code, graphics etc... EVERY game's documentations point that out in legality's language whenever you play a game. You dont read it doesnt mean that it's not there.

The fact that modders are bad at understand legal language doesnt mean they suddenly have ownership to something.

Let's say you make asset for a body framework in FNV and name it, say, Type 69.

If you carry THAT to a game company and want to use it in their game... EVERYBODY and his dog will tell you Type 69 is not yours and can not be used in a game. Or at least, their game.
 

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