Review NWN Review

[Sol Invictus]

Deus Ex was like this. And the gameplay was excellent because of it.

- Evil Homer

The difference is that in Deus Ex, the game was actually good and fun to play, though it did have many shortcomings, such as the lacklustre graphics and the many inconsistencies.

Neverwinter Nights really bored me with the combat, as it played itself more often than I did, putting me in the position of a passive observer, and the combat itself, although wonderful to watch, took too long to finish, and boy was there too much of it. Dungeon Siege, as much as I loathe that game, was a lot more fun to play than Neverwinter Nights, because the combat was quicker, although it was still, as the reason I dislike it, automated.

The worst thing about NWN's combat was that the monsters just dissapeared right after you killed them, lending the sense that nothing you did in the world was of any effect. It really killed any suspension of disbelief that I had going. Dungeon Siege was a lot more interactive, in terms of terrain design, weapons and so on. A pity that this statement only holds true to the early part of the game and at the end (everything in the middle was utterly pathetic).

Neverwinter Nights did have a story, and a rather large one at that. But it was neither grand, nor was it very flexible. You had more flexibility in Deus Ex (the three possible endings, and the various choices you had in dictating whether you could save the life of your brother, Jock or getting Gunther Herman on your side), and need I mention games like Fallout, Geneforge and Arcanum?

The problem with NWN's story was that it was too rigid, and it wasn't very... "interesting", I shall say. As Saint Proverbius states in his review, you could be a Druid with a lot of wisdom, figure out the plans of the evil Desther, and still not be able to affect the outcome of the storyline. This isn't what I'd call flexibility. Game books have more flexibility than NWN's storyline, I tell you.

Oh and lastly, Aribeth's voice really got on my nerves. The way she spoke felt so wooden, not to mention ANNOYING.

 

[Deathy]

Oh and lastly, Aribeth's voice really got on my nerves. The way she spoke felt so wooden, not to mention ANNOYING.

Not to mention the fact that you couldn't kill her, or the other 50% of NPC's, because they were flagged as cruical to the plot.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Re: You're right, but you've missed the point...

Ok, so I've just reached Act III and tried to complete every quest so far, so I think I can now comment on this...

Have you noticed they all involve making multiple things dead yet? How many enemy heads have you had in your inventory by now?

You have to admit, the HeadEx quests in NWN get a little silly after first few, because they use it so often.

Graphics?
Dungeon Siege is sooo pretty compared to NWN, but that's all it is... there's no substance to it. The engine for NWN is far better than the Seige Editor, most likely becuase of the tiled use of graphics in NWN. Also NWN allows for far more character actions the DS (i.e. spells, thievery, etc) and can be expanded on. So you take the good with the bad.

I'm really not sure thieving is part of the graphics, but I agree with you that Dungeon Siege offered next to nothing in terms of what you could do...

However, neither did NWN, since 99.9% of everything you do in NWN is killing something. It's interesting you should mention thieves though, since NWN handles them so poorly, reducing them to a lesser fighter class that can pick locks and remove traps, since there are very few outlets for the thief in the game.

If you look at other CRPGs, like Fallout, Morrowind, or Arcanum, thieves have quite a bit to offer in terms of what they can do - and do silently. In Arcanum, you can wait until nightfall, break out the street lights in an area, and have all kinds of thiefy fun because it makes it so the guards have a harder time spotting you prowling around, going in and out of windows, and so on. In Fallout, you could stick close to walls, use a StealthBoy, and sneak passed guards as to NOT kill them. Morrowind is the same way, even giving you a Thieves Guild to join that gives you stealthy quests and assists you with the law.

Gameplay/Story?

NWN is a story RPG in the grand sense. DnD was always meant to be played as a heroic campaign and you and your party being the hero(s). There's always an evil bad guy (i.e. foozle) and your job is to go take him out, be it for good, money, etc. (At least in the circles I play in.) Going around and killing random people and just generally running amok pretty much ruined the game and destroyed any sense of story the DM was trying to convey. Also, how many DnD campaigns have you ever played "twice". There's no going back once you've done it. Same here.

Well, there's a number of problems with that. NWN allows you to play a Chaotic Evil person, right? Where's the outlaw part of the game? Why can't you join the bad guys? Or even screw over the good guys along the way? There is no grand sense here, because you're going against your alignment here. Taking money to do quests isn't evil. It may not be noble, but expecting to get paid for doing a job for someone isn't exactly the work of the devil.

In fact, to stay evil, going around and killing towns people is exactly what you have to do to stay evil.

Now, if you're talking about what I said about immortal characters in the game, there are a good many CRPGs that allow you to kill everyone in the game if you're a mean spirited, evil type person. In fact, there's even home brew shareware ones that do that! Having immortal NPC as to not break the story is half assed, especially in this day and age.

Any experienced CRPG developer should be able to get around the notion of having a plot character killed off by a player. After all, the story should be about the player, and certainly not about everyone else in the game.

That's another reason it's hard to say that it's a "grand tale", because your character is nothing more than a lackey through most of it. You're constantly reporting back to someone and told what to do next. You're the lowly grunt of the story.

Now if you've ever played a module in DND (not little story idea campaigns, but the actual modules), then you know they are very linear. Anybody that goes too outside the box, and the modules over. Done with. It's up to the DM to see if he can recover, but in most cases, the adventure is over. In fact I remember one module where one of the players was upset that item A wasn't in box B. He was one of these guys that memorized every module and would throw a fit if you changed stuff around. He would always make a beeline to the best item, always avoid the trap in Room AA, (becuase "he" knew where it was, not his character) and pretty much ruining it for everyone else.

That's why modules aren't the best way to go, they're basically learning tools and/or source material. You'd be better off finding a DM that doesn't use them.

However, there are still CRPGs out there that aren't linear and do handle lots of events that players can try. Charm and orc and take it in to town in Divine Divinity, then set it free. Watch what happens.

However, if you're looking for a good roleplaying experiencing with a grand scope of a story and actual character development and change, you'll enjoy playing this game.

Other than levelling up, what character development? What change? Heck, what role playing?

The only role you have in the story is the guy who goes out and kills the hordes of critters to enter a new chapter of the story. NWN is basically on par with Diablo 2 in that repect.

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

Great review of the Single Player campaign. A very knowledgeable and eloquent explanation of the sheer crapness we all experienced.

I think it's a bit hypocritical to claim you reviewed what the game shipped with, though. You actually only reviewed a small fraction of the software that came in the box. Ignoring the tools suited your purpose, since it meant you didn't have to give any credit.

You didn't have to review the games created with the tools. Fair enough, they didn't come in the box. However, the tools did come in the box (as did the DM client), so a complete review would have described their quality and fitness to purpose. Don't forget, some people enjoy making modules rather than playing them.

If you don't feel qualified to review the toolset, or feel your biases would prevent a worthwhile review, you should ask someone else to do that section of it.

Completeness is worth aiming for, since only covering the bits you want to talk about seriously devalues your own currency. People might start to wonder what you're leaving out of other reviews to further your own agenda.

If you really believe NWN is a crap game, all things considered, it shouldn't be necessary for you to give only a partial review. You should be able to explain the crapness in a complete review.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I think it's a bit hypocritical to claim you reviewed what the game shipped with, though. You actually only reviewed a small fraction of the software that came in the box. Ignoring the tools suited your purpose, since it meant you didn't have to give any credit.

Here's a thought, Sheriff, go back and read the third paragraph from the bottom. The part where I said the game shipped with a "splendid editor".

You didn't have to review the games created with the tools. Fair enough, they didn't come in the box. However, the tools did come in the box (as did the DM client), so a complete review would have described their quality and fitness to purpose. Don't forget, some people enjoy making modules rather than playing them.

Now go back and read the second to last paragraph. KTHXBYE!

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

I did read that paragraph. It's a single sentence assessment of general quality, not a review.

You could equally have reduced the detail on the SP campaign to "the game comes with a shit SP campaign." You didn't, you reviewed it properly to bring out all it's glorious shitness. As I said, a truly complete review would have done the same for the mod building toolset and the DM client, since they both shipped in the box.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Hey Fatman, you should stop doing things that put you in as a contender for the "giant idiot" award. It's not something anyone wants to win.

Read the whole review.


edit: A big qualm I had with NWN (and the editor) was that you had to pay TWENTY MORE DOLLARS for the editor guide. There was no other way to use it without that little manual by your side.

Sure, you could get it off kazaa for free, but I'm not a pirate.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I did read that paragraph. It's a single sentence assessment of general quality, not a review.

You could equally have reduced the detail on the SP campaign to "the game comes with a shit SP campaign." You didn't, you reviewed it properly to bring out all it's glorious shitness. As I said, a truly complete review would have done the same for the mod building toolset and the DM client, since they both shipped in the box.

Let me think.. Why would I focus mainly on the part of the game that the majority of people who buy it will actually see. Hmmmm..

Fatman, how many reviews of Vampire: the Masquerade did you see that went in to detail about the storyteller mode? Or the editor? In fact, how many Half-Life reviews covered WorldCraft? How many StarCraft reviews covered it's editor in detail? How many Warcraft III reviews cover it's editor?

 

[Sol Invictus]

The thing about the editor in NWN is that, well, it's a side issue. Most people bought NWN to play NWN, not use the editor. It makes no sense to give the game high ratings based on a supposedly "free" feature that comes with the game.

One which you pretty much had to spend 20-30 dollars (depending on where you got it) to use. It was useless without the manual.

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

Exitium, there is no need to be childish. Isn't it a bit silly to get annoyed at me for criticism of S_P's review, when the review is essentially criticism of some other piece of work. I understand you may not agree with me, but I hardly think calling me "a giant idiot" is going to take us anywhere worthwhile.

When S_P says "I don't care, they didn't come in the box," he's quite justified in not reviewing games made with the toolset. However, the toolset itself DID come in the box and I think deserves inclusion in the review.

Consider this: I already know the SP campaign was shit. For me S_P's review was a rather dreary (but well written and thought out) statement of things I already know. On the other hand, not having gotten into mod making of DMing, I have a lot of questions about the toolset quality.

- Does it do the job well?
- What bits does it do well?
- What bits badly?
- How much flexibility is there?
- What kinds of mods are possible using it?
- What are its limitations?
- Is it extensible?
- Is it content rich or can I expect to be hit up for expansion pack wonga.
- What is the skill entry level for use?
- Is there a range of skill levels acceptable? If so, what are the likely effects on results?

You know, typical things a review might cover. Currently, all I know is that S_P thinks it is splendid.

I also have questions regarding the DM client, which everyone seems to overlook, but would be of potentially large significance to online play. All I know from his review is that S_P's dabbling with only play left him less than thrilled.

Let me think.. Why would I focus mainly on the part of the game that the majority of people who buy it will actually see. Hmmmm..

You didn't just focus on it. It is the only thing you reviewed. Maybe I wouldn't have a problem if you hadn't made your claim about reviewing what was in the box.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Not to mention that if this were intended to be a construction kit game, instead of a single/multiplayer CRPG which just-so-happens-to-have-an-editor, why didn't they include all the documentation in the game about the scripting language and editor instead of selling at as an additional reference?

Think about it.

You know, typical things a review might cover. Currently, all I know is that S_P thinks it is splendid.

I also have questions regarding the DM client, which everyone seems to overlook, but would be of potentially large significance to online play. All I know from his review is that S_P's dabbling with only play left him less than thrilled.

Again, how come game reviews don't cover the editors that ship with the game?

Point me to a Quake 3 Arena review that covers Q3Radiant in detail. Point me to a UT2k3 review that covers it's editor in any detail. Point me to an Arcanum review that mentions WorldEd. Point me to any of the other games I've mentioned with an editor.

Come on, Fatman. Ante up or shut up.

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

That sounds like one of the things that could ahve been said during a more complete review. I'd have been interested to hear it, since I didn't already know it.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I didn't call you a giant idiot. I just said that if your actions were putting you in as a contender for the award, but I digress.

Let me just say this again: you don't judge a game based on "free features" that cost 30 additional dollars to use. If I were Saint Proverbius, I would have mentioned that very fact in the review.

It really peeves me to pay 80 dollars for the Collectors Edition that doesn't come with the necessary manuals, and requires that I pay an additional 30 dollars just to get the editor working.

This, my droogies, is not what I call a finished product.

 

[Anonymous]

subject? what subject?

I would just like to say that everything that you went in depth about in this review, I too have thought about and been dissapointed with. The editor is powerful, yes, but it feels quite limited where every forest is exactly the same, unless of course, you change lighting or background items.... wow, pretty lights. Anyways, I like this game, and the editor, but with all of these shortcomings, it feels unfinished. I'm glad someone finally reviewed the game as it actually is. Well done on a concise, well thought out, and truthful review.

 

[Anonymous]

Fallout 1 can be finished without combat. It's a fact.

I almost have to disagree with you here... combat was at every turn, and when the big head mutant guy and all his mutant buddies are pouncing on you, I don't think you can simply just "run away". Though I will admit it was far easier to avoid combat, or at least keep it minimal. Still. I did enjoy shooting those rats...

- Evil Homer

not quite true. if you played the game right, you could finish the game without ever doing anything violent. it was extremely awesome - I've even tried it - it's not that hard. and you get a different ending than you would if you had gone the violent path.

as for NWN, the single player campaign sucked, but if you really think that THAT is what they've hyped for this long, then I feel sorry for you. They have hyped the toolset and its functionality since day one.

and we now have: rideable horses, climbing, swimming, some flying creatures, cloaks, hardcore rules that follow Pen and paper more than NWN did, and much much more. if you find no redeeming quality in that, then you're blind to one thing:

NWN's audience is hardcore about roleplaying, and UNLIKE FPS fanatics, we made stuff for a game that wasn't good, and turned it into something that IS.
take a look at unreal tournament and quake 3. UT has three times the mods that Q3 does. people said for years that Q3's engine was better, but because of UT's gameplay and the stuff it came with, most people (read: the non-hardcore types) who modded for FPS's modded for UT because they liked it more.

NWN is not like that. you're talking about a billion people across the world who are DIEHARD D&D fans, and they have proven they can do more with aurora than the developers have. If that doesn't factor into your review, it should.

Why? because it's all available to everyone who buys NWN.

 

[Anonymous]

Spot on review, Neverwinter was overhyped. Certain elements were good, few were great, most were shite. Bioware is trying to rectify the single player campaign with another one, Witchworks, which {hopefully} will be a better gaming experience.

If anything Bioware should get credit for not giving up on it and doing their best to keep dissatisfied customers happy. Their customer service is outstanding.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

as for NWN, the single player campaign sucked, but if you really think that THAT is what they've hyped for this long, then I feel sorry for you. They have hyped the toolset and its functionality since day one.

Check out RPG Vault's coverage on NWN. The vast majority of it is about the campaign and the multiplayer of the campaign. They covered the other things as well, sure. However, when you open the game, install it, I'm betting the first thing you did was load up the campaign, wasn't it?

After all, there are a lot of users out there without fast internet internet connections or internet connections at all in the rural areas that aren't near big cities. Downloading several dozen 10MB modules isn't really an option for those people.

The point of the matter here is, and this is why nearly all the game reviewers would review the campaign itself, because that's the majority of what people will see.

NWN's audience is hardcore about roleplaying, and UNLIKE FPS fanatics, we made stuff for a game that wasn't good, and turned it into something that IS.

take a look at unreal tournament and quake 3. UT has three times the mods that Q3 does. people said for years that Q3's engine was better, but because of UT's gameplay and the stuff it came with, most people (read: the non-hardcore types) who modded for FPS's modded for UT because they liked it more.

I didn't think Quake 3 was very good. It was basically Quake 2 DM with a new engine, resold for $50.

I also didn't think Half-Life's multiplayer was that great either, but modifications have kept that game on top for nearly five years.

However, I really don't like this trend at all. Allowing expansion and modification of a game is great. However, dumping a game on the market and expecting the fan base to make it good just seems wrong to me.

I don't think it's fair to praise a developer for releasing inferior content even though they also packaged up editors and third party people who aren't getting paid make the game enjoyable.

Spot on review, Neverwinter was overhyped. Certain elements were good, few were great, most were shite. Bioware is trying to rectify the single player campaign with another one, Witchworks, which {hopefully} will be a better gaming experience.

I'm interested to see what they do with Witchworks. However, I won't hold my breath that it will live up to the promises, which I probably shouldn't have done for NWN. Basically, I think I'll take an, "Expect the worse, hope for the best" view point on it.

If anything Bioware should get credit for not giving up on it and doing their best to keep dissatisfied customers happy. Their customer service is outstanding.

It's in their best interests not to give up on it. After all, NWN has the potential for many expansion packs in the future, and a sequel or two. There's a reason Sega consoles are no longer around, because Sega would market drop one, wait a few months and then drop support with the promise of a new console in a few years. It's poor strategy.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

Good review, Saint.
However, there where one or two quests that did not involve Dragons being caught at the extra-pointy end of a Dual Axe+4. The trial, with the Barbarian?
In my view, this is a perfect example of good quest desing using the D&D rules.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Good review, Saint.
However, there where one or two quests that did not involve Dragons being caught at the extra-pointy end of a Dual Axe+4. The trial, with the Barbarian?

I mentioned that, actually. The trial in Act III.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

There where two trails.
There was the ghost town one which was pretty much a dungeon crawl with a cool purpose, than there was the trail in the Church in the small camp.

 

[Sol Invictus]

It's really too bad that there weren't more quests like the trial; a quest which made up approximately 4.5% of the overall quests in the game.

 

[Anonymous]

Great review.

It's interesting to see how most people's defense of NWN falls back on 'it was geared to be multiplayer' or 'it was designed for user-made content', 'it's editor is a main feature' etc etc

sadly, not true.
first off, multiplayer of the included campaign was painful, to say the least.
seemed to crash a lot too.

secondly, as one who was highly interested in the user-made content side of things i watched the forums as people urged bioware to add this feature during development.

sure it's there now with the use of hak paks and so forth, but initially there was no easy way to add new models etc.

all it was designed for was user made modules and scripts.
and what did we get?
100's of crap modules, all with the same cliched plot, the same grahics, the same gameplay.

admittedly, most of the crap modules are the fault of the creators, many of whom seem to be amazingly uncreative, or unable to grasp what makes a decent crpg module.
or perhaps the people who are making these modules are making them badly because they don't understand that a CRPG is completely different from PnP.

however, it's only very recently when the user's have edited/hacked and fought their way to the custom content that we are getting things like the ability to control your henchman's inventory etc.
all the features that should have been there in the first place are only now being made, and not by bioware, by the community.
in fact bioware are using a number of community-made features in their new module.

so no,most of the features you defend NWN with weren't there on release, or at least not in a sense that would redeem it. It's only now through the hard work of the community (ok fair enough, bioware help them with advice, etc) that these things are now coming into appropriate use.

finally, i would like to point out that for bioware the included campaign WAS a main focus.
take a look at the start up menu, the first button there takes you though the official campaign.
that should tell people where bioware's priorities were, they wanted that to be seen/played first so they put it at the top of the list.

The majority of people purchasing the game are people who see it in a store, think it looks cool, and play the official campaign single player straight away

Sorry if this sounds a bit angry, but i too was expecting a lot from NWN.
Not so much from the official campaign, but the user-made side of things was a shining light for many. And it too was a bit of a dud.

 

[Ibbz]

Not so much from the official campaign, but the user-made side of things was a shining light for many. And it too was a bit of a dud.

You shouldnt have expected anything decent from the module making community until a long time after release, as most of the better modules would take a long time to make, if they're to be done properly.

 

[Anonymous]

true, but not so much modules, as the fact that i wanted to make things myself, and the lack of support for new models etc was dissapointing.
(me being a 3d artist and all)
sticking down the same old tiles u have already seen everywhere isn't much fun, and they limit the story a lot.
The plot and plans i had ready for my module were impossible to impliment without redoing a lot of the graphics etc.

 

[Anonymous]

The thing about the editor in NWN is that, well, it's a side issue. Most people bought NWN to play NWN, not use the editor. It makes no sense to give the game high ratings based on a supposedly "free" feature that comes with the game.

mwahaha.......

I'm a DM and I'm building a persitent world, I spend 3 days to complete the official campaign because I want to see how they make stuff rather than play it. Ever since then I spended about 14 hours a day working on the toolset until today. I am consider slow actually mainly because this is a one man project... There are already so many custom made modules and persistent world out there already and most of the casual gamer are gone... All that is left in the 200-400k in the community are serious D&D players.... Whoot, they are going to be so much fun to play with than those normal players or diablo like fans.

In Fact, I got so hot with it that I have been interviewed by a local gaming magazine. If anyone is from Singapore, watch out for the december issue of "Playworks". I'm the Lord Weaver they have interviewed.