NWN2 OC was not bad as people make it out

[Roguey]

The KoS' fall wasn't due to heroism, the consequences or the pitfalls of such, it was because the Weave failed at the wrong time, there is no "deconstruction" going on here.

He could have accepted his death, but instead made a really poor decision for longevity to save that which he wished to protect. Jerro more or less did the same thing.

 

[Lacrymas]

His decision wasn't poor, quite the contrary, the ritual would've worked hadn't Karsus destroyed the Weave at that exact time. Nobody could've known what Karsus was doing then. It was simply a coincidence.

 

[fantadomat]

NWN2 did have pretty good writing. The fact that we are still talking about it with more or less fresh memories 10 years later is a testimony to that.

 

[Roguey]

His decision wasn't poor, quite the contrary, the ritual would've worked hadn't Karsus destroyed the Weave at that exact time. Nobody could've known what Karsus was doing then. It was simply a coincidence.

You're misremembering. He already had been the guardian for some time, and only turned to the shadow weave because his juice had suddenly dried up.

After he was selected out of all the candidates, the King underwent a 100-day long, extremely painful ritual in which Annaeus merged the man with the Weave. When the ritual had passed, the man had lost all traces of his former self; he was now known as "the Guardian," a perfect weapon with only two goals: to protect Illefarn and destroy its enemies.

Fearing this Guardian, even Netheril dared not attack Illefarn, and so the empires co-existed for a time. However, when the wizard Karsus killed Mystryl, then-goddess of magic, via the spell Karsus's avatar, all magic ceased to function for a time. This caused the tie between the Weave and the Guardian to be shattered, and Netheril's floating cities to fall from the skies. Even after the goddess had been resurrected as Mystra, the King was unable to draw upon his old power. Therefore, he turned to the Shadow Weave, a dark magic source governed by Shar that turned him into a creature of darkness. Some Illefarn citizens came to fear this new incarnation of their Guardian, and sought to kill him before he could turn on his allies, even though he had made no attempt to do so.

 

[Lacrymas]

Ah, ok. Then the problem is different and isn't tied to heroism again - he isn't a person anymore, he's a machine with 2 objectives and is basically programmed to do everything to that end. It was never a decision, he couldn't make decisions anymore, he can't deviate from his purpose. Even if it was his decision, that wouldn't be from heroism, that would be from obsession over duty and over-vigilance.

 

[Average Manatee]

NWN2 did have pretty good writing. The fact that we are still talking about it with more or less fresh memories 10 years later is a testimony to that.

Unfortunately its



And specifically, the backstory to the plot was good. The writing everywhere else was like a rollercoaster.

 

[Zero Credibility]

NWN2 did have pretty good writing. The fact that we are still talking about it with more or less fresh memories 10 years later is a testimony to that.

By that reasoning Plan 9 from Outer Space must be one of the best films ever made, because people are still talking about it.

And it's wrong for me anyway. Most of the things I remember from OC are things that were just stupid enough to stick in my memory. Like how you keep finding irritating NPCs on the road that then join you despite all attempts to tell them to fuck off. Like that gnome excuse of a character, he joins you... because he is an NPC, now stop asking questions. There was an excellent post by someone here a long time ago that perfectly described this, I'll try to find it.

I think the only really good thing I remember abut the story was the trial part, and we all know how that ends.

edit: Found it.

I think the NWN2 companions and particularly the design philosophy that went into them, will remain, for all of time, not merely awful, but inexplicably awful. It's just a mind-boggling prospect that a roomful of intelligent people nodded their way through,

"Okay, we're going to aim to write up a solid character concept for a companion of every single base class in-game bar one, and all of them will be crucial to the game's narrative. Obviously I don't mean by this that their motives and backstories will be subtly interwoven with the player's own motives and backstory, making them compelling three-dimensional characters who echo and explore the themes of the game. No, I mean that at some point the player will trigger a compulsory conversation where they encounter one of the companions engaged in some completely random and banal activity, like fighting thugs or having their beloved barn burnt down (!), and for no reason at all the companion will suddenly insist on joining forces with the player, and we'll even give the player options to be all like, 'Well, no, there's no reason at all for you to decide you want to hang around with me, since I'm the guy who just actively encouraged those soldiers to murder you, you're supposed to be an actual person with your own sense of agency and decision-making abilities, this is bizarre, fuck off', but the companion will pretend they haven't heard and insist on joining the party anyway and then even if the player never speaks to them again they'll still hang around for the next 40 hours, or a year of their lives in gameworld-time or whatever, and they'll even volunteer to defend a keep against overwhelming odds on the player's behalf for no reason, but then the player will be forced to bring them along to the final dungeon and then they'll totally betray the player. It's going to be awesome."

And then MotB came along and it was as if everybody's brains popped back in.

 

[fantadomat]

Meh i liked the character.

 

[Cael]

The gnome was comic relief. And an immature, oblivious child you sort of take under your wing.

He had a better reason to be there than that bitch Bishop.

 

[Zero Credibility]

I honestly have no idea why he even joins the party. Bishop at least has an excuse that you need him to track... someone at one point. Why he is allowed to stick around after that holding a big sign "I'M GONNA BETRAY YOU" was the stupid part. But the gnome, no clue. All I remember is you just find him and then he's in your party and you can't get rid of him.

Not sure if I missed anyone, but here's why they are with you risking their lives:

the dwarf - you are alone and hunted at that point, so safety in numbers I guess
the thiefling klepto - ditto I guess? also you may need a thief
the elf druid - your very own creepy stalker and possible romance
the sorceress with issues - she does some damage to a tavern, so she sticks around until she repays it, even though she's completely unlikeable
elf wizard - best NPC you get, gets really fucking stupid if you manage to keep sorceress chick on your side at the end
paladin - don't really remember, maybe something about killing some orcs?
gnome - WHY ARE YOU HERE?!
eeeeevil ranger - he helps you track someone once, oh and you totally will not see his betrayal coming
girl with the burned barn - story related, until story demands you forget resurrection spells
warlock - story related, probably second best NPC
cheap Dak'kon knockoff - story related again?

I think the worst part is they are forced on you. You even get dialogue options telling them no and piss off, but they are just ignored. NPCs in BG weren't that much (or at all) better, but there you can chose between a larger roster to find something at least inoffensive or even not bother with them at all.

 

[Lacrymas]

I really hated that they forced you to take characters along even on my very first playthrough as a kid. You don't even have a possibility to equip them properly, f.e. when Casavir joins you to go kill some orcs you've probably been running with Khelgar at that point if you aren't a heavy armor wearing melee yourself, so you switch Khelgar for Casavir because you don't need a second heavy armor melee dude, but all the good gear by that point is on Khelgar who you just dismissed and have no access to his inventory anymore. I also vaguely remember that their builds were terrible. While I appreciate their efforts to intertwine all the companions with the story somehow, the execution was hamfisted in the most terrible way possible and you end up resenting them because they took your good character away and replaced it with this clown.

 

[Cael]

I honestly have no idea why he even joins the party. Bishop at least has an excuse that you need him to track... someone at one point. Why he is allowed to stick around after that holding a big sign "I'M GONNA BETRAY YOU" was the stupid part. But the gnome, no clue. All I remember is you just find him and then he's in your party and you can't get rid of him.

Not sure if I missed anyone, but here's why they are with you risking their lives:

the dwarf - you are alone and hunted at that point, so safety in numbers I guess
the thiefling klepto - ditto I guess? also you may need a thief
the elf druid - your very own creepy stalker and possible romance
the sorceress with issues - she does some damage to a tavern, so she sticks around until she repays it, even though she's completely unlikeable
elf wizard - best NPC you get, gets really fucking stupid if you manage to keep sorceress chick on your side at the end
paladin - don't really remember, maybe something about killing some orcs?
gnome - WHY ARE YOU HERE?!
eeeeevil ranger - he helps you track someone once, oh and you totally will not see his betrayal coming
girl with the burned barn - story related, until story demands you forget resurrection spells
warlock - story related, probably second best NPC
cheap Dak'kon knockoff - story related again?

I think the worst part is they are forced on you. You even get dialogue options telling them no and piss off, but they are just ignored. NPCs in BG weren't that much (or at all) better, but there you can chose between a larger roster to find something at least inoffensive or even not bother with them at all.

I think the gnome is more of "no way to get rid of him unless you use him to intercept arrows as the dwarf suggested" :D

The ranger is the one I really have problems with. You know the ass is going to betray you, everyone and their mothers tell you he is bad news, and he is still sticking around. Infinitely worse if you yourself are a freaking PALADIN!

Which brings me to another of my pet peeves about the plot: I am a paladin. Why the hell am I on trial for MURDERING AN ENTIRE VILLAGE, you vapid simpleton??? Here! *stabs Nasher* *lays on hands* I am leaving now, dickhead.

 

[vivec]

I've heard this "NWN2 OC is about deconstruction of heroism", but it's not. At most, it's about pointless sacrifice or a sacrifice which makes things worse. Zhjaeve sacrificed her place in Githyanki society, but she ends up as Black Garius' servant; Ammon Jerro sacrificed his soul to fight the KoS, but in the end he lost his family and his granddaughter, while the KoS is still active; The KoS sacrificed his life for the Illefarn, but only managed to turn into a zealous grotesquery of a guardian who annihilated what he was supposed to protect. The execution was terrible, obviously, and I'm grasping at straws. The only "deconstruction of heroism" is what's-his-face, the champion of the festival, who went to Neverwinter to become a captain of the guard, but turned into a pencil pusher with no real influence for heroism. The KoS' fall wasn't due to heroism, the consequences or the pitfalls of such, it was because the Weave failed at the wrong time because of Netheril, there is no "deconstruction" going on here.

I agree with Lhynn that a more character/party-focused third act would've been better. Everyone getting ready to face an "unstoppable evil" and maybe wanting to do one last job/task because it's not certain they'll make it out alive. The camaraderie is one of the strongest points of the OC and some of the characters do have believable chemistry and drama (Sand/Qara, Bishop/Casavir, Neeshka/Khelgar, Zhjaeve/Ammon Jerro), so it would've worked much, much better than the impotent narrative we ended up stuck with.

KoS's problem was that he was trying to 'do the right thing' no matter what the cost. Road to hell and all that.

 

[Zero Credibility]

I really hated that they forced you to take characters along even on my very first playthrough as a kid. You don't even have a possibility to equip them properly, f.e. when Casavir joins you to go kill some orcs you've probably been running with Khelgar at that point if you aren't a heavy armor wearing melee yourself, so you switch Khelgar for Casavir because you don't need a second heavy armor melee dude, but all the good gear by that point is on Khelgar who you just dismissed and have no access to his inventory anymore. I also vaguely remember that their builds were terrible. While I appreciate their efforts to intertwine all the companions with the story somehow, the execution was hamfisted in the most terrible way possible and you end up resenting them because they took your good character away and replaced it with this clown.

Indeed, that too is a problem. The gnome is particularly guilty of this. You go on a quest to do some ork killing, then you run into this asshole by the side of the road and he literally forces his way into your party, making you dump someone else instead. By all means, let me just remove my only thief / healer / tank and all his gear for this little shithead. His introduction alone is so annoying it makes me want to strangle him on the spot:



Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if forced NPCs didn't count in the party limit, like with the barn girl when they force you to keep her in party for entire chapter in a desperate attempt to give her eventual pointless death some punch. Fuck, this game is a mess.

 

[Lacrymas]

If you knew beforehand who and when will force themselves on you, you can take the desired gear from someone else and put it in the shared inventory, but you don't, so it's meta-gamey. I was also thinking that maybe the people that forced themselves into the party could've occupied the same spot as Shandra, i.e. an extra person that doesn't get in the way of the actual party. Why didn't they do that is beyond me.

 

[fantadomat]

I've heard this "NWN2 OC is about deconstruction of heroism", but it's not. At most, it's about pointless sacrifice or a sacrifice which makes things worse. Zhjaeve sacrificed her place in Githyanki society, but she ends up as Black Garius' servant; Ammon Jerro sacrificed his soul to fight the KoS, but in the end he lost his family and his granddaughter, while the KoS is still active; The KoS sacrificed his life for the Illefarn, but only managed to turn into a zealous grotesquery of a guardian who annihilated what he was supposed to protect. The execution was terrible, obviously, and I'm grasping at straws. The only "deconstruction of heroism" is what's-his-face, the champion of the festival, who went to Neverwinter to become a captain of the guard, but turned into a pencil pusher with no real influence for heroism. The KoS' fall wasn't due to heroism, the consequences or the pitfalls of such, it was because the Weave failed at the wrong time because of Netheril, there is no "deconstruction" going on here.

I agree with Lhynn that a more character/party-focused third act would've been better. Everyone getting ready to face an "unstoppable evil" and maybe wanting to do one last job/task because it's not certain they'll make it out alive. The camaraderie is one of the strongest points of the OC and some of the characters do have believable chemistry and drama (Sand/Qara, Bishop/Casavir, Neeshka/Khelgar, Zhjaeve/Ammon Jerro), so it would've worked much, much better than the impotent narrative we ended up stuck with.

KoS's problem was that he was trying to 'do the right thing' no matter what the cost. Road to hell and all that.

Good thing that this happens only in modern pop culture. In real life there is no such moral bullshit.

 

[Delterius]

I thought it was boring crap that got in the way of my adventuring and never paid off.

your whole adventure was shit in that game and the fact that sauron had a backstory is irrelevant

 

[Lacrymas]

It is relevant because the third act spends too much time explaining and going through that backstory, instead of doing something more interesting, like focusing on the characters. That backstory amounts to nothing, so it's even more of a waste of time and irrelevant for the narrative or characters in the most fundamental way. It's random and pointless.

 

[Delterius]

like focusing on the characters.

oh wow already looking forward to that

howdy qara how are you today

i'm fine thanks

hey neeshka how do you write your name

its NEESHAKASASASDASDASDASDA

 

[ilitarist]

girl with the burned barn - story related, until story demands you forget resurrection spells

Aeris dies.

I remember it not being a problem at the time. It was jolly standard adventure and it was OK for it to be so standard. But recently I've tried NWN2 again and oh boy. All those binary choices and forcefulness of the story really piss you off.

 

[Zero Credibility]

The funniest part is that you don't have the time to just pick her body up or resurrect her there and then, yet you do find the time to completely loot it for all her gear.

Some level of railroading is unavoidable in crpgs, but at least it doesn't have to be this stupid.

 

[Cael]

The funniest part is that you don't have the time to just pick her body up or resurrect her there and then, yet you do find the time to completely loot it for all her gear.

Some level of railroading is unavoidable in crpgs, but at least it doesn't have to be this stupid.

No, the funniest part is that none of your other companions can die. Even if you did nothing, they get back up again after the fight. That they made her die permanently is not even railroading. It is just bad storytelling on par with "all your base belongs to us" level of translation.

Putting her in a coma would serve the same purpose and have the same impact without making her into a special dead snowflake.

 

[Cael]

All games that include the concept of resurrection fallen party members struggle with this when they have to kill off someone for good. Sometimes they timidly try to separate falling in combat (i.e. getting knocked out or injured enough that you stop fighting) with actually getting killed, but most of the time they shoehorn it and hope the players will just roll with it.

One of the reasons why I ban all raise dead type spells in my tabletop campaigns. Dead is dead. It encourages players to be less cavalier with their characters.

 

[Zero Credibility]

In a setting like Forgotten Realms death is too often just a temporary setback at best, especially for a high level adventurer. This is a problem of the setting, but it is there just the same. If you are building a campaign in it you need to realize that and avoid these kind of plots altogether or at least try to come up with something that makes a little more sense, why resurrection is not an option. Her body being left behind was supposed to be that (ignoring that you can just cast the spell right away), but then they also returned all her items, because otherwise you'd have players complaining about losing them thanks to stupid railroading. Which then only makes the railroading look more stupid.

 

[Delterius]

All games that include the concept of resurrection fallen party members struggle with this when they have to kill off someone for good. Sometimes they timidly try to separate falling in combat (i.e. getting knocked out or injured enough that you stop fighting) with actually getting killed, but most of the time they shoehorn it and hope the players will just roll with it.

Just pulverize their bodies, drown them in the sea or drop them into a mineshaft. Do something. Don't just leave them there. That's all you have to do.