-
Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.
"This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
NWN2 OC was not bad as people make it out
- Thread starter aweigh
- Start date
Whiny-Butthurt-Liberal
Guest
Stockholm syndrome, the thread.
Average Manatee
Arcane
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2012
- Messages
- 15,382
Fixed
fantadomat
Arcane
I enjoyed it on release to. It is not like 2006 was amazing year for rpgs and there were ton of rpgs to chose from.
Ebonsword
Arcane
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2008
- Messages
- 2,427
I really liked it at the time--I think I played through it at least five times. Man, I loved all the character options you had.
However, I can't look past the crappy RTWP combat now (unfortunately, the same is true for the Infinity Engine games).
However, I can't look past the crappy RTWP combat now (unfortunately, the same is true for the Infinity Engine games).
Clockwork Knight
Arcane
The players are to blame as well, the #1 complaint I read about every game that doesn't overstay its welcome is a variation of "too short". It's [current_year] and I still see unironic usage of "1 dollar = 1 hour". Those people must pinch their nipples whenever an NPC asks them to deliver a letter to his friend on the other side of the planet.
Last edited:
FeelTheRads
Arcane
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2008
- Messages
- 13,716
King of shadows as concept wasn't too bad. The problem with NWN2 was not really the concept. The problem was the execution which was horrible.
Deleted Member 16721
Guest
Ironic that people are bitching about quantity and large games when 95% of RPG gamers basically repeat the cliche "QUALITY OVER QUANTITY BRO" and that is who developers cater to. The 5% of us in the camp of wanting good enough quality in large quantity are barely accounted for. Every game needs to be streamlined into a super tight package now because god forbid players get confused or bored or just wander around enjoying the game at a leisurely pace.
A game like Baldur's Gate wouldn't be made today, let alone something like Suikoden. The characters would be streamlined into 5 or 6 "really well developed and thoroughly written" characters and every line of dialogue would be voiced requiring no imagination on the part of the player. It all has to be super developed characters now, no minor or lesser developed ones where you can roleplay or use your imagination a bit for. That's a waste of resources when you can give party member #3 out of the 7 total available party members 200,000 more words of dialogue.
It's BS and I'm sick of it. Sick of it! All I ask for is a balance. Where are the CRPG devs making games that have more gameplay focus and not only story? With large amounts of content, large amounts of "emergent" gameplay, tons of tools and toys to play with in an endless playground of creativity? Games like Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, Arcanum, etc.. It's a shame that aspect of classic CRPGing is not represented in modern gaming.
A game like Baldur's Gate wouldn't be made today, let alone something like Suikoden. The characters would be streamlined into 5 or 6 "really well developed and thoroughly written" characters and every line of dialogue would be voiced requiring no imagination on the part of the player. It all has to be super developed characters now, no minor or lesser developed ones where you can roleplay or use your imagination a bit for. That's a waste of resources when you can give party member #3 out of the 7 total available party members 200,000 more words of dialogue.
It's BS and I'm sick of it. Sick of it! All I ask for is a balance. Where are the CRPG devs making games that have more gameplay focus and not only story? With large amounts of content, large amounts of "emergent" gameplay, tons of tools and toys to play with in an endless playground of creativity? Games like Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, Arcanum, etc.. It's a shame that aspect of classic CRPGing is not represented in modern gaming.
Lacrymas
Arcane
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2015
- Messages
- 18,828
The problem with antagonists like the KoS is they usually require some kind of McGuffin to defeat. "Oh, woe! Hero, our village is besieged by the Darkness. Please, go find the seven starlight globes that will disperse this evil!" And surprise, surprise, it was the Sword of Gith. On their own, they aren't ever a threat, since they don't have a concrete plan or coherent motivations that will cause drama, but are simply abstract concepts to keep the hero moving. It can't be just on its own, it needs something more to make the exercise not pointless for the reader/gamer/viewer. Oedipus Rex doesn't end when Oedipus solves the riddle of the Sphinx, the idea is that he damns himself by trying to fight against fate and that is the logical center and culmination of the story, not that he can solve the riddle. That's why the various antagonists in the OC are good, they represent more immediate threats and foils for the protagonist.
If the main antagonist was Black Garius, he trying to summon the KoS, but you stopping him at the end, then it might have turned out good. That way you wouldn't waste 90% of the third act going through Illefarn ruins (that I still hate) and meeting pointless, problem-solver companions like Zhjaeve, but actually have time for political maneuvering with Luskan to actually get TO Black Garius. He is a Mage Lord (or whatever their title was) of Luskan, so imagine trying to get through an entire country to get to one of their leaders, it would require something completely different than a McGuffin. Maybe an all-out war if you couldn't diplomacy your way through (*cough* skill checks *cough* hint, hint). The potential was there, you are already a minor lord and commander of a keep of Neverwinter, so it was a natural development.
If the main antagonist was Black Garius, he trying to summon the KoS, but you stopping him at the end, then it might have turned out good. That way you wouldn't waste 90% of the third act going through Illefarn ruins (that I still hate) and meeting pointless, problem-solver companions like Zhjaeve, but actually have time for political maneuvering with Luskan to actually get TO Black Garius. He is a Mage Lord (or whatever their title was) of Luskan, so imagine trying to get through an entire country to get to one of their leaders, it would require something completely different than a McGuffin. Maybe an all-out war if you couldn't diplomacy your way through (*cough* skill checks *cough* hint, hint). The potential was there, you are already a minor lord and commander of a keep of Neverwinter, so it was a natural development.
We should rank the worst time-fillers in a thread with candidates like:
- The Derp Roads from DA:O
- The almighty Orca Caves from NWN2
- The pathetic Endless Paths from PoE
- The Black Coal Mines from Arcanum
Come on guys, which others? I'm too drunk right now to remember shit. My vote goes to Orca Caves cos you just extinct some mottherfuckers cold as ice LOL fuck you orcs
- The Derp Roads from DA:O
- The almighty Orca Caves from NWN2
- The pathetic Endless Paths from PoE
- The Black Coal Mines from Arcanum
Come on guys, which others? I'm too drunk right now to remember shit. My vote goes to Orca Caves cos you just extinct some mottherfuckers cold as ice LOL fuck you orcs
fantadomat
Arcane
Don't forget the dream world from DA:O's wizard tower. Or the first 20 hours of wasteland 2.
ilitarist
Learned
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2016
- Messages
- 857
Why are Endless Paths in here?
First, they were completely optional.
Second, there was no filler content. They were full of interesting battles and sidequests and opening shortcuts. It's a good dungeon.
Deleted Member 16721
Guest
And the term "filler" itself is questionable in an RPG. Do you want every encounter to be strictly story related and linear? Or do you want room to breathe, explore and use your party for gameplay purposes, with stuff like huge dungeons to test your prowess and character/party development in?
It varies from game to game but I like to have optional content like that + plenty of "filler" where you can kill things, from easy to challenging, a few impossible-come-back-later encounters for good measure and terrain to roam around in. Also a slow progression where the questgivers aren't all like "Oh no you literally have 2 minutes to stop this from happening hurry go go!!!"
More Morrowind, less Oblivion plz.
It varies from game to game but I like to have optional content like that + plenty of "filler" where you can kill things, from easy to challenging, a few impossible-come-back-later encounters for good measure and terrain to roam around in. Also a slow progression where the questgivers aren't all like "Oh no you literally have 2 minutes to stop this from happening hurry go go!!!"
More Morrowind, less Oblivion plz.
Lhynn
Arcane
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2013
- Messages
- 9,970
Man, you really have a hang up with luskan. I dont get why tho, its literally cartoony evil shit. The most interesting thing you can do with luskan is an extended BG2 segment of "free the slaves by murdering everyone else". Its just lazy crap that exists to be blamed for almost everything that goes wrong in FR.
I remember playing a PW and being told by the DMs i couldnt bring down luskan because it was valuable as a source of antagonist (read: people we had to murder). And thats it ever was.
i always liked the petty bickering between the antagonists in NWN2 OC especially when they kept failing to get you. also unrelated to the liking the antagonists thing; i also always liked that they didn't neglect or forget smaller characters like Bevil who shows up at the Keep and you can even give him a job
your asshole stepdad also shows up at the keep as well, and it all felt natural since that's what would normally happen. and i also liked that your stepdad was an asshole, precisely because he had sacrificed being able to live with other elves just to shoulder the burden of raising you because he knew you had a precious sword up your butt that would someday save the land
i also like that nwn2 oc is truly epic it has you doing so much shit that even people who've played multiple times forget some of the scenarios cos you do a ton of stuff. a big part of nwn2 OC's appeal is its explicit lack of pretensions and manages to deliver exactly the type of campaign i used to play with my friends back in the day.
also it's pretty inarguable that the crossroad keep and everything related to it was a great stronghold and it was well done, not only as a gameplay mechanic (though building stuff was shallow it was still leagues ahead of the PoE keep) but what really made it stand out is how integral it becomes to the storyline (unlike PoE)
it really truly made you feel like a goddamn batman of the keep
your asshole stepdad also shows up at the keep as well, and it all felt natural since that's what would normally happen. and i also liked that your stepdad was an asshole, precisely because he had sacrificed being able to live with other elves just to shoulder the burden of raising you because he knew you had a precious sword up your butt that would someday save the land
i also like that nwn2 oc is truly epic it has you doing so much shit that even people who've played multiple times forget some of the scenarios cos you do a ton of stuff. a big part of nwn2 OC's appeal is its explicit lack of pretensions and manages to deliver exactly the type of campaign i used to play with my friends back in the day.
also it's pretty inarguable that the crossroad keep and everything related to it was a great stronghold and it was well done, not only as a gameplay mechanic (though building stuff was shallow it was still leagues ahead of the PoE keep) but what really made it stand out is how integral it becomes to the storyline (unlike PoE)
it really truly made you feel like a goddamn batman of the keep
Last edited:
ilitarist
Learned
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2016
- Messages
- 857
I'd argue that Oblivion doesn't have filler too.
I see it this way. RPG genre is inherently free-form. It has varied approaches and almost always it means varied difficulty. Even if the game is perfectly balanced and playing speech-focused merchant is as difficult as playing swordsman (which is never the case) the world is content with you grinding and getting stronger. If you don't want to get clever with potions, skillful button mashing and exploiting enemy weakness you can bruteforce it by killing orcs till the challenge is easier. Of course sometimes it doesn't work due to living world (e.g. Space Rangers) or autoleveling (Oblivion), but even in those cases you may see the error of your ways and develop your character(s) in a way that suits challenges better.
In JRPGs it is most streamlined. There are few sidequests. If you're weak and can't beat the next boss - just hug the save point/inn and grind till you get some levels under your belt. This grinding is not a filler unless it is required and it rarely is required.
The filler is when you're forced to go through uninteresting combat for the sake of it. NWN2 OC is full of it. Bunch of similar monsters are just standing there. You've killed mobs like that 3 times already, and you rest after each battle so there's no attrition going on. Same happend in Dragon Age Origins in Deep Roads. You fight the same guys you fought since the first hour of the game. Again and again. You didn't voluntary went there for some reason, you don't get anything from the process. Oblivion has copypasted gates of Oblivion but you go there to get cool artefact and rare alchemical stuff specifically. And there are relatively short. DAO and NWN just put hours of stuff between you and interesting parts. That's a filler.
filler is not just "extended/unnecessary content" because IMO that is just too subjective since some would argue killing 10 trolls is filler and some would say it's quality content... it depends on whether or not killing is well designed:
- for me "filler" is any mechanic or scenario/level or anything that requires input from the player that is badly designed, and/or badly executed or badly implemented and is FORCED upon the player; something in the game not to inflate play times but instead something that actively harasses player input and is unavoidable, essentially wasting the player's time in activities that may not be bad by themselves but are obnoxious or repetitive or badly utilized/placed.
...like T: ToN's entire dialog script, or the orca caves in nwn2 oc or the derp roads or black mines. i have to retract endless paths from the filler list since it is optional technically but whoever thinks that was a good dungeon needs to go play more RPGs mang.
an easy example would be a hyper-active random encounter ratio (like 1 encounter every step type of thing) this is something that ends up inflating the play time but it's not filler because of that, it's filler because it's harasses the player unnecessarily because the designers could not think of any other way to engage the player, in a case like bard's tale 1's town encounter rate for example it prevents the player from leisurely mapping out the town or getting their bearings (exacerbated by how long encounters take in BT).
tl;dr Filler is like porn, you know it when you see it.
- for me "filler" is any mechanic or scenario/level or anything that requires input from the player that is badly designed, and/or badly executed or badly implemented and is FORCED upon the player; something in the game not to inflate play times but instead something that actively harasses player input and is unavoidable, essentially wasting the player's time in activities that may not be bad by themselves but are obnoxious or repetitive or badly utilized/placed.
...like T: ToN's entire dialog script, or the orca caves in nwn2 oc or the derp roads or black mines. i have to retract endless paths from the filler list since it is optional technically but whoever thinks that was a good dungeon needs to go play more RPGs mang.
an easy example would be a hyper-active random encounter ratio (like 1 encounter every step type of thing) this is something that ends up inflating the play time but it's not filler because of that, it's filler because it's harasses the player unnecessarily because the designers could not think of any other way to engage the player, in a case like bard's tale 1's town encounter rate for example it prevents the player from leisurely mapping out the town or getting their bearings (exacerbated by how long encounters take in BT).
tl;dr Filler is like porn, you know it when you see it.
Last edited:
ilitarist
Learned
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2016
- Messages
- 857
There aren't that many RPGs I haven't played and I struggle to name more than a few dungeons that were designed better than Endless Paths. Dark Souls Anor Londo/Painted World maybe, but it's a completely different philosophy of design. Mass Effect 2 final mission felt varied but even it quickly got old with you fighting the same enemies. Party RPG usually just throw the same enemies at you till you're bored. Not much to remember from maybe Elemental Forge from M&MXL. Oh, maybe Wizardry 8 monastery, that was cool and varied too.
Let's not get into a my dungeon is better than your dungeon thing because, spoiler alert, i'm just gonna cite Dungeon Crawlers and you're just gonna cite non-Dungeon Crawlers.
so we can agree to disagree.
EDIT: but you know what, even talking specifically non-Dungeon Crawlers even then Endless Paths is lazy as fuck. I don't even want to bother compiling a list of better dungeons than the Paths as there are simply so many. Heck, even within PoE itself I'd consider the Paths one of the weaker dungeons.
so we can agree to disagree.
EDIT: but you know what, even talking specifically non-Dungeon Crawlers even then Endless Paths is lazy as fuck. I don't even want to bother compiling a list of better dungeons than the Paths as there are simply so many. Heck, even within PoE itself I'd consider the Paths one of the weaker dungeons.
At least they named it right. It feels endless.
Santander02
Arcane
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2009
- Messages
- 3,363
Better than nwn1 OC, but then again nwn1's whole reason of being was it's tool set, people created some good stuff with it, the OC was just a demo module, so being better than it isn't really an achievement. Can't really say nwn2 had it's priorities right, meh camping and clunky toolset. At least we got MotB out of it.
Agreed that nwn2 toolset was less stable and harder to use than nwn toolset, but put in perspective... Damn. It was still a great tool, and I played countless hours of PW multiplayer and downloaded user generated content. I wish they still had the ambition and faith in the community of those days...
Delterius
Arcane
Considering how level scaling works in Oblivion, this definition applies to the whole of it.
As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.