Game News Oblivion mage quests (highly intricate stuff)

[Antiphon]

You should aquire the games just so you can realize where a lot of people here are coming from.

Yes I probably should, but I resist spending money on older games because my main interest is where technology is taking us. I've been that way since Pong and I'm getting too old to change.

 

[merry andrew]

because acting like a 5 year old on Halloween is roleplaying

Oke but let's assume I'm a great roleplayer. I'm saying the mage guild quests seem really lame.

Yes I probably should, but I resist spending money on older games because my main interest is where technology is taking us. I've been that way since Pong and I'm getting too old to change.

It seems sort of insulting to couple cutting-edge technology with sub-par design. And yeah, I said "aquire", not "buy", although I encourage you to buy them if you can find and/or afford it.

 

[LlamaGod]

You should aquire the games just so you can realize where a lot of people here are coming from.

Yes I probably should, but I resist spending money on older games because my main interest is where technology is taking us. I've been that way since Pong and I'm getting too old to change.

http://www.the-underdogs.org



SPOILER ALERT: Technology isn't going anywhere cool

 

[Antiphon]

because acting like a 5 year old on Halloween is roleplaying

I fail to see how that contributes to the discussion. It can only be a put down of someone else that's not just like you.

I hear they need more radical extremists in Iran. Perhaps you should check it out?

 

[Antiphon]

SPOILER ALERT: Technology isn't going anywhere cool

Well that's a matter of opinion and I have a different opinion. I'm here trying to understand what maybe lost with the march of technology. Certainly some things should be preserved. I disagree on the tactics used by many here as to the goal of preserving these things.

 

[Cloud Ruler]

In Ultima 4, your goal is to become the Avatar. A spiritual rolemodel to inspire people, basically.

To do that, you have to master the 8 virtues. This is done by roleplaying, since the game does not guide you into accomplishing them. People's gold is free to steal from their homes, and its your decision to take it or not.

Also telling the truth when NPC ask you questions is part of the Honest virtue, not boating to others raises Humility (also note these all have multiple ways to improve yourself, not just the ways im mentioning).

Stuff like that.


Also, the game has no guided path for you, you simply start off in the big giant world and go about becoming the avatar in any way you wish, going by clues the NPCs will drop to you.

Now I'm confused. You're saying the best example of a game with good role-playing quests is a game without any quests at all?

 

[LlamaGod]

because acting like a 5 year old on Halloween is roleplaying

I fail to see how that contributes to the discussion. It can only be a put down of someone else that's not just like you.

I hear they need more radical extremists in Iran. Perhaps you should check it out?

It's not a matter of being different from me, it's a matter of you being totally wrong.

Acting like you're a 5 year old on Halloween is just being stupid, not roleplaying, despite what MMORPG servers want you to believe.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I guess I was looking for more specifically WHAT is better about the quests in those games -- the ones that did true role-playing quests instead of the tired old Fed-Ex quests we all hate. Examples are good.

Multiple solutions that allow you to handle quests in different ways, fitting your character.

Anyway, examples:

Fallout:
Killian, a major of Junktown, asks you to help take down Gizmo, a guy who runs a casino. You can do it by recording Gizmo's offer to kill Killian or by planting a bug in his office. You can also say "what's the hell" and actually kill the major for Gizmo. If you decide to side with the major, you can stop there or you can help him confront and kill Gizmo and his bodyguard. Each choice affects the towm.

Arcanum:
Getting to see Bates. You can either charm your way in, help protect the warehouse, find his enemy, Appleby, and help him by destroying the machinery in that warehouse (Appleby would show you another way in), or double-cross him and gain the entrance that way.

Bloodlines:
The Ankaran sarcophagus. You must investigate the sarcophagus, located on a ship filled with cops. You can persuade one to give you police report, hack into the surveillance system and see everything on the screen, kill everything in your way and take a look, sneak behind or on top of those containers on the deck, or use any powers like Celerity (very fast speed), Obfuscate (invisibility, basically), Dementation (mass hallucination), etc.

 

[Vault Dweller]

...my main interest is where technology is taking us.

Nowhere, unforunately. Have you played Darklands?

 

[Greatatlantic]

...my main interest is where technology is taking us.

Nowhere, unforunately. Have you played Darklands?

Seriously, all new technology seems to be used to make FPSers look prettier. Occasionally somebody will figure out a clever or new way to use it in a way actually related to gameplay (I'll give the Movies credit for that at least), but so far technology has been very unforgiving to RPGs. Which begs the question, if you want to see where technology is going, why are you paying attention to a self described RPG? Go check out Crysis screens if thats what you want.

 

[Antiphon]

because acting like a 5 year old on Halloween is roleplaying

I fail to see how that contributes to the discussion. It can only be a put down of someone else that's not just like you.

I hear they need more radical extremists in Iran. Perhaps you should check it out?

It's not a matter of being different from me, it's a matter of you being totally wrong.

Acting like you're a 5 year old on Halloween is just being stupid, not role playing, despite what MMORPG servers want you to believe.

However, feeling that kind of excitement, of a 5 year old on Halloween, becomes more and more precious the older one gets. Far too often it is replaced by feelings of bitterness, resentment and hopelessness. Taking a proactive stance to minimize the latter and encourage the former is what I consider a wise decision.

Wisdom can be in many areas. I have found much here, often mixed with angst, that has enlightened me to something precious that, for the most part, I somehow missed in my gaming experience. I believe Morrowind opened my eyes and started a craving for these things.

When I object to something, it is usually because I sense something is being said in a counterproductive and/or self-serving way. Expressing angst through anger is almost always counterproductive.

This all assumes that RPG Codex has a goal. I'm assuming there is a goal and it's something like:

Promoting and expanding all that is "RPG Goodness" for games of today and tomorrow.

That's a goal I can support. How to attain that goal is where I think I can be of help to the Codex, but for now is beyond the scope of this post.

 

[Antiphon]

<snip>
Multiple solutions that allow you to handle quests in different ways, fitting your character. <snip>

Ah, I think I see. For each quest then there should be multiple ways of solving it for each class using that class' strengths. Would this just be for the major classes, thief, mage and warrior or should it be for many of the custom classes too? I imagine that could get quite complicated if you go beyond the major classes.

I guess you consider it unacceptable that it appears Bethesda handles this by having multiple class specific quest lines (Mage's Guild, Thief's Guild, ect) instead of having that diversity for each and every quest.

I can see it would be more fun to have that diversity for each and every quest, but that it would take an awful lot of time to do so on the scale of a game like Morrowind.

I would think if one plays a thief one should not be able to join the Mage's Guild, at least not right away, because ones mage specific stats aren't high enough.

 

[Antiphon]

...my main interest is where technology is taking us.

Nowhere, unforunately. Have you played Darklands?

Nope. Is that for an example of "RGP Goodness?" It does not look very appealing from a techno/graphics point of view.

I realize the folly of my techno/graphics bias and feel somewhat responsible for the trend that is eating away at "RPG Goodness." I am, sort of, seeking redemption here at the Codex.

If I may, I'd like to offer a little hope. It seems clear to me that the industry and consumers are just going through a stage were they can't resist playing with the new graphic toys. It's also clear that we are fast approaching practical limits in terms of graphics and 3D virtual worlds. When we hit this limit in a few years the game companies will have to compete in other ways, presumably by increasing the depth and complexity of games.

I trust the Codex will be ready, willing and able to help lead the way when the time comes.

 

[LlamaGod]

Technology and Graphics are incredibly unfulfilling, I never got how anyone could enjoy a game soley off them.

Anyways, here's a good list of shit you should play:

Ultima 4 (a MUST)
Ultima 5
Ultima 6
Ultima 7 (only play 7 once you've played 4-6)

Darklands
Fallout
Planescape: Torment
Arcanum


And some generally good 'old school' games:
The Magic Candle
Wasteland

Star Control 2 (a bit more of a freeform action/exploration game than an RPG, but stil a shining example of a great and older game)

 

[Antiphon]

Technology and Graphics are incredibly unfulfilling, I never got how anyone could enjoy a game soley off them.

Anyways, here's a good list of shit you should play:

Ultima 4 (a MUST)
Ultima 5
Ultima 6
Ultima 7 (only play 7 once you've played 4-6)

Darklands
Fallout
Planescape: Torment
Arcanum


And some generally good 'old school' games:
The Magic Candle
Wasteland

Star Control 2 (a bit more of a freeform action/exploration game than an RPG, but stil a shining example of a great and older game)

Thank you for the suggestions. I've had many suggestions in this thread and haven't played a single one. I'm must be truly an RPG virgin.

Well, maybe not if you count Summoner and Morrowind. I really liked the party system in Summoner.

I wonder how many more people are like me, discovering "RPG Goodness" mainly because of Morrowind.

 

[merry andrew]

I wonder how many more people are like me, discovering "RPG Goodness" mainly because of Morrowind.

A lot.

 

[Stark]

Well, maybe not if you count Summoner and Morrowind. I really liked the party system in Summoner.

I wonder how many more people are like me, discovering "RPG Goodness" mainly because of Morrowind.

Do check out the older rpg games recommended to you. you're missing all the good stuff and think Oblivion is great when in fact t it is inferior in gameplay, which is the ultimate point of us playing a game.

there're good reasons people here dislike Morrowind and Oblivion and the general trend where modern rpg games are headed.

there's more emphasis on flashy graphics and catchy phrases than true and intelligent gamplay. The quests mentioned in the previews sound so idiotic and braindead.

in case you do not know, Morrowind's predecessor's main quest, with similar scope and size, is non-linear. (hence your comment of quests being linear out of necessity due to size, is not true) MW's main quest (and almost all its side quests) is a 100% stirctly linear exercise in tedium. Oblivion, all evidence showing, is going to be more of the same bland stuff.

 

[Lumpy]

VD, you can't see someone who is invisible. It's impossible.
Also, the guildmaster had no way to know the guy was trying to fool him. He believed that the wizard had really disappeared, so there would have been no reason for him to cast detect life spells.

 

[Stark]

VD, you can't see someone who is invisible. It's impossible.
Also, the guildmaster had no way to know the guy was trying to fool him. He believed that the wizard had really disappeared, so there would have been no reason for him to cast detect life spells.

the whole idea of dissappearing to scare a disliked guildmaster is childish.

 

[kris]

VD, you can't see someone who is invisible. It's impossible.
Also, the guildmaster had no way to know the guy was trying to fool him. He believed that the wizard had really disappeared, so there would have been no reason for him to cast detect life spells.

If he was in the same building he would have been discovered sooner rather than later. Invisibility only makes it possible not to see you, not discover you. Anyway, anyone doing that "prank" more than one day must have deep pshycological problems or being overly anti-social.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Arcanum:
Getting to see Bates. You can either charm your way in, help protect the warehouse, find his enemy, Appleby, and help him by destroying the machinery in that warehouse (Appleby would show you another way in), or double-cross him and gain the entrance that way.

I'm pretty sure you can also pick the lock and sneak in through the underground tunnel that's find out in the cemetary.

 

[Lumpy]

Indeed, this "prank" doesn't make sense. At all. He's invisible, but why? If he wanted to go missing, couldn't he just hide somewhere for a while? What's the point of going invisible?

 

[kris]

<snip>
Multiple solutions that allow you to handle quests in different ways, fitting your character. <snip>

Ah, I think I see. For each quest then there should be multiple ways of solving it for each class using that class' strengths. Would this just be for the major classes, thief, mage and warrior or should it be for many of the custom classes too? I imagine that could get quite complicated if you go beyond the major classes.

It doesn't have to be classspecific at all. We talk about different routes and different skills as much. And while a "killing someone" quest can be tailored for different classes it would be better to have alternatives to actually killing that person. Or why not having him killed so it looks like an accident? Faking his death? There are so many of these options that all to many games and these in particular ignore.

 

[crufty]

... Or why not having him killed so it looks like an accident? Faking his death? There are so many of these options that all to many games and these in particular ignore.

Agreed! But raise your hand if you'd pay $60 for ASCII graphics with those options, or Ultima IV at best...not saying that's an excuse.

Personally, I didn't think the quests were *THAT* bad.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Arcanum:
Getting to see Bates. You can either charm your way in, help protect the warehouse, find his enemy, Appleby, and help him by destroying the machinery in that warehouse (Appleby would show you another way in), or double-cross him and gain the entrance that way.

I'm pretty sure you can also pick the lock and sneak in through the underground tunnel that's find out in the cemetary.

Right, I forgot about this one. I think it was loaded with traps, and traps+low skills=quick and painful death, so I had to seek another way.