Interview Oblivion tit for tat at GameCloud

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I disagree here. First person is just more natural for games involving guns, and frankly everything else you guys loved about Fallout could just be expressed in an FPS model.

Well, you're right about that. Everything else... But the roleplaying.

Now, Roleplayer, that isn't entirely true. Games like Arena, Daggerfall, and Arx Fatalis, to name a few, pulled off being first person games just fine, without having to rely on extreme player reflexes.

You are correct in saying that in those cases there is not an extreme focus on player reflexes, as they rely on both player reflexes and character skill, but the resulting end combination of both of these elements into the same model more often than not present an unsatisfying, if not counterintuitive, hybrid. They fall pretty much into the same line as Deus Ex and Vampire: Bloodlines, with combat being a combination of the player aiming and firing quickly but still failing because of a number that sits in the background telling you what, and how you can hit. The firstperson perspective associated with realtime, while not necessarily making a firstperson shooter, still carries some of the expectations and gameplay issues of what one would expect from playing such a game.

On one hand, adepts of firstperson, realtime combat will feel dissatisfied with the system because it simultaneously asks for their quick input but does not take it into full account; while people more accostumed to RPGs will feel dissatisfied with the system because it simultaneously relies on their character's skill... But only if they're quick enough to aim and hit in the first place.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Another article.
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=165028

Same old stuff plus this little gem:

Todd also includes an interesting havok idea. "I tell you, it never gets old when you paralyze a guard in midswing and watch him tumble down the stairs, still in his swing pose, with his limbs realistically bouncing off every surface. I love havok."

And some people have the nerve to say that Oblivion is less than totally awesome...

 

[Sarvis]

Well, you're right about that. Everything else... But the roleplaying.

Not if we go with the most common Codex definitions, which basically amount to multiple ways to solve problems and multiple plot paths.

DeusEx demonstrated multiple solutions to problems in an FPS.

The real problem is how to do things like persuasion for dialog. To keep in line with a pure action game you shouldn't have character skills controlling it... so I guess some mini-game would be needed to see if you succesfully bluff/persuade/intimidate someone.

 

[Balor]

Todd also includes an interesting havok idea. "I tell you, it never gets old when you paralyze a guard in midswing and watch him tumble down the stairs, still in his swing pose, with his limbs realistically bouncing off every surface. I love havok."

Hmm, so what? It's indeed kinda fun. He didn't mention it give the game some sort of extra role-playing value, so nothing really to poke fun about, IMHO.
It kinda smells like mindless bashing.
Bashing, in it's constructive criticism 'incarnation' is very good, and worth a thousand praises each.
Mindless bashing is, well... 'blunt' .

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Not if we go with the most common Codex definitions, which basically amount to multiple ways to solve problems and multiple plot paths.

I'd like to think as someone who doesn't necessarily go with most common Codex definitions, but oh well.

I find that, as you say, multiple ways to solve problems and multiple plot paths are an extension of roleplaying, especially the first one as it allows characters to express choices and deal with consequences. However I also find that having no way to determine character attributes like intelligence or persuasion but still allowing him to make his way trough dialogue is overly simplistic and failing as a roleplaying model, which was what Deus Ex did. That is why Vampire: Bloodlines manages to present something closer to an RPG.

DeusEx demonstrated multiple solutions to problems in an FPS.

So did Thief and System Shock 2, yes.

The real problem is how to do things like persuasion for dialog. To keep in line with a pure action game you shouldn't have character skills controlling it... so I guess some mini-game would be needed to see if you succesfully bluff/persuade/intimidate someone.

In terms of dialogue and determining dialogue aptitudes I think that Deus Ex screwed the pooch; however, it strikes me as a sufficient model for an FPS. Since all else is dependant on the player, I can't think of a reason why dialogue responses and advancement should not be up to gamers as well. Possibly crude, but effective. A modicum of persuasion could be measured by past character actions instead of a single stat determining it (ie, save the town Mayor and get shop discounts, smiles from townsfolk, hookers for free and better chances of convincing someone; don't save him and have the opposite). You can also include the standard method of only presenting a given dialogue choice after the player has done a particular action.

 

[Fodel]

Only an idiot thinks that first person view o isometric influences on roleplaying.

Some people just don't get it.

I bolded out the 'role' part of roleplaying for a very simple reason: emphasis on the aspect of playing a role.

Fallout is isometric and is a superb crpg, LionHeart is isometric and is a shitty crpg, Daggerfall is real-time and is a superb crpg, Dungeon Siege is real time and is a shitty crpg, Prelude to Darkness is turn-base and is a superb crpg, ToEE is turn base and is a shitty crpg, Vampire Bloodlines is FP and is a superb crpg (the first half), M&M 9 is FP and is a shitty crpg.

Real Time, turn base, isometric, dialog tree, FP..., are elements of the gameplay, and is the gameplay, as a whole, what define a good or a bad crpg.

 

[Tintin]

What's so complicated about it? You always hit (if the opponent is in range), you dodge and block according to the best traditions of FPSs, and that's pretty much it. Wow!

It looks like all of MFSD's posts about the combat system have been in vain, or else you simply don't read posts.

 

[Balor]

Real Time, turn base, isometric, dialog tree, FP..., are elements of the gameplay, and is the gameplay, as a whole, what define a good or a bad crpg.

My point exactly.
However, when it comes to defining whether the game is RPG or not, some things just don't count.
Expecially when it comes to playing a social archetype, not some class.

 

[Chefe]

You are correct in saying that in those cases there is not an extreme focus on player reflexes, as they rely on both player reflexes and character skill, but the resulting end combination of both of these elements into the same model more often than not present an unsatisfying, if not counterintuitive, hybrid. They fall pretty much into the same line as Deus Ex and Vampire: Bloodlines, with combat being a combination of the player aiming and firing quickly but still failing because of a number that sits in the background telling you what, and how you can hit. The firstperson perspective associated with realtime, while not necessarily making a firstperson shooter, still carries some of the expectations and gameplay issues of what one would expect from playing such a game.

On one hand, adepts of firstperson, realtime combat will feel dissatisfied with the system because it simultaneously asks for their quick input but does not take it into full account; while people more accostumed to RPGs will feel dissatisfied with the system because it simultaneously relies on their character's skill... But only if they're quick enough to aim and hit in the first place.

First person is just a tool to view the gameworld. Isometric and 3rd person are also just tools. I'll even bet that you could make a first person turn-based game and have it come out pretty decent (or you could even do a hybrid like Krondor or whatever). Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that first person games don't have to be akin to FPS games, just like isometric games don't have to be hack n' slash. Like I mentioned before, Daggerfall was a first person game where combat heavily relied upon your character skills and didn't really require you to have any player skills during combat. You moved the mouse and did different attacks. It was pretty fluid, in my opinion, and not "twitchy" at all.

The problem we have here is that more and more developers are thinking that games with first person perspective must be similar to first person shooters. The dim audience doesn't know that first person can have different playing styles, and they'll never know if some games don't step up and be different. I love the first person perspective for RPGs. I don't think you can get any more immersed in the game world than that. However, I want it to be an RPG. I want to use the first person perspective only as a tool to view the world. When I happen upon combat, I should not have to worry whether I am quick enough to beat this opponent, but I should instead worry whether my character has high enough skill and speed with his weapon to beat this opponent. In Daggerfall if you came face to face with your enemy, no fancy WASD tricks and button combos could save you. Your character's life relied on how well and how smart you built his skills. That's what RPG combat should be about. Leave the twitchyness for the other genres.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Real Time, turn base, isometric, dialog tree, FP..., are elements of the gameplay, and is the gameplay, as a whole, what define a good or a bad crpg.

Way to dodge the issue. What defines the quality of a CRPG was neither your initial point nor the point of my posts. The point is how the use of a given perspective and combat model take away from the roleplaying by relying more on players than on characters.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

My point exactly.
However, when it comes to defining whether the game is RPG or not, some things just don't count.
Expecially when it comes to playing a social archetype, not some class.

Too bad combat archetypes don't hold up to the same scrutiny as social archetypes.

 

[kathode]

And some people have the nerve to say that Oblivion is less than totally awesome...

What's so bad about that?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

First person is just a tool to view the gameworld. Isometric and 3rd person are also just tools. I'll even bet that you could make a first person turn-based game and have it come out pretty decent (or you could even do a hybrid like Krondor or whatever). (...) The problem we have here is that more and more developers are thinking that games with first person perspective must be similar to first person shooters.

I agree; hence why I referenced the expectations of gamers when confronted with firstperson realtime combat. Firstperson doesn't need to be realtime; its just used in conjunction with it more often. But throw into it character skills that determine to hit ratios and it starts to crumble for gamers used to seeing firstperson realtime combat used differently. It also becomes a hybrid system that's somewhat flat when compared to either system (strictly character skill and strictly player reflexes) on its own.

Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that first person games don't have to be akin to FPS games, just like isometric games don't have to be hack n' slash. Like I mentioned before, Daggerfall was a first person game where combat heavily relied upon your character skills and didn't really require you to have any player skills during combat. You moved the mouse and did different attacks. It was pretty fluid, in my opinion, and not "twitchy" at all.

From what I remember from Daggerfall it operated in the same way that Morrowind. And Morrowind's combat, while not as hectic as a firstperson shooter, was still reflex-oriented enough to share some similarities. Despite my character's skill I could still dodge incoming projectiles and spells; and some combat situations were solved because, even though the character had a low weapon skill, I used both my character's speed and my reflexes to dodge blows and do circle-strafing around enemies to hit them repeatedly.

 

[Chefe]

From what I remember from Daggerfall it operated in the same way that Morrowind. And Morrowind's combat, while not as hectic as a firstperson shooter, was still reflex-oriented enough to share some similarities. Despite my character's skill I could still dodge incoming projectiles and spells; and some combat situations were solved because, even though the character had a low weapon skill, I used both my character's speed and my reflexes to dodge blows and do circle-strafing around enemies to hit them repeatedly.

Yes, you could dodge spells by sidestepping in Daggerfall, but it wasn't fast paced or anything. And then you had area effect spells, which couldn't be dodged. There was no circle-strafing in Daggerfall. I guess one of the reasons was that you engaged in combat in narrow hallways, so there was no room to move around. When you entered a bigger room, the enemies were always in front of you, so you either had to fight or run away. There was no sidestepping (I don't recall). The trick is to program the enemies to constantly be in front of you, and you in front of them (unless your a thief and you quietly sneak up behind them, of course... or if they sneak up behind you). That way, when you come face-to-face with them for a fight, it'll be your skills against your enemies (with some extra small tactic of pressing a button to defend with your shield and pressing a button to attack with your weapon or magic... but nothing complex).

Combat was anything but twitchy in Daggerfall. Like its predecessor Arena, you clicked the mouse button and moved it around to simulate swinging your sword in slow, broad strokes. It actually felt really cool.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And some people have the nerve to say that Oblivion is less than totally awesome...

What's so bad about that?

'bout what? People saying that Oblivion aint all that? Nothing.

Hmm, so what? It's indeed kinda fun. He didn't mention it give the game some sort of extra role-playing value, so nothing really to poke fun about, IMHO.
It kinda smells like mindless bashing.
Bashing, in it's constructive criticism 'incarnation' is very good, and worth a thousand praises each.
Mindless bashing is, well... 'blunt' .

I didn't criticize the feature, I criticized the focus of the coverage.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Could be. I played Daggerfall like aeons ago, so it's mostly a blur. Morrowind I played and finished more or less on release; sometimes twitchy sometimes not.

 

[jiujitsu]

The combat in Oblivion sounds pretty fun I think.

That's not really important to this crowd, though.

How about some screenshots of dialogue menus? Maybe an example of a quest that doesn't involve combat? How certain character creation choices will affect the game world?

You know, the good stuff.

 

[Pegultagol]

I can't wait to see how Oblivion will turn out.

I think from only what I hear the game will be pretty decent, if not worse than Morrowind. Which is fine by me. I can only hope the role playing elements are not divulged as much as for a game rather imminent in release (relatively speaking) for the sake of not revealing any major plot spoilers.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I've been spending some time play testing the Mage's Guild quests, and I'm just astounded by the details: the dialogue, the intricacy of the quests, the sheer volume of information.

Intricacy of quests? Hell yea! Collecting flowers and delivering packages ROCKS!

Holy shit. What dumbass said that? The Mage Guild quests were AWFUL. Okay, the first quest was go get four flowers from some hillside. I was somewhat okay with that because I'm a lowly pissant who just signed up. I guess a n00b in the guild has to do some bitch work. So, I went out to the hill and started collecting the flowers and fended off the few critters in the area(which were annoying). I get back to the guild, present the cat faggot guy with the flowers and he tells me.. I need to go to another hillside and collect some different flowers for my next quest. WTF?

I actually went to vivec and bought them just because I absolutely hated doing it the first time. I think the third quest was taking a package to another mage guild somewhere else. At that point I didn't want to advance any more in the guild because the first few quests totally sucked ass.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

Mage's Guild quests

Yeah, Ajira's quests were a nuisance.

 

[Micmu]

Imho, the Tribunal Temple faction was worth playing in Morrowind.
It contained some quests other than just simple go&fetch and go&kill and was more difficult.

 

[Zli]

Combat was anything but twitchy in Daggerfall. Like its predecessor Arena, you clicked the mouse button and moved it around to simulate swinging your sword in slow, broad strokes. It actually felt really cool.

And after char-gen they asked you how fast your reflexes were. There was a bit of a penalty to levelling if you set them to very low though. Still, it was useful.

I wonder if they'll put in a slider for that in Oblivion...

 

[Twinfalls]

Firstperson doesn't need to be realtime; its just used in conjunction with it more often. But throw into it character skills that determine to hit ratios and it starts to crumble for gamers used to seeing firstperson realtime combat used differently. It also becomes a hybrid system that's somewhat flat when compared to either system (strictly character skill and strictly player reflexes) on its own.

I disagree. Gothic has a hybrid system which feels anything but 'flat'. The designers simply had the courage to say 'okay, if reflexes are going to be part of this, we'll make them really count', so parrying was made very timing-dependent. And it worked. Your stats were still very important, but at least the real-time aspect didn't feel like a wishy-washy nowhere-model like MWs. And as for adding 'to-hit' ratios, as VD keeps saying, all Beth need to do is put a simple dodge animation for misses. Yet they didn't bother with this in MW, and now they've chucked out to-hit altogether.

Edit: Just realised Gothic had third-person combat, but I don't see why the same system couldn't have worked in FP.

Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that first person games don't have to be akin to FPS games, just like isometric games don't have to be hack n' slash. Like I mentioned before, Daggerfall was a first person game where combat heavily relied upon your character skills and didn't really require you to have any player skills during combat. You moved the mouse and did different attacks. It was pretty fluid, in my opinion, and not "twitchy" at all.

This I agree with. DF's was a pretty good implementation for its time. Especially because of the analogue swing, which, of course, Beth decide to chuck out instead of improving.

 

[Astromarine]

Man, how I wish that Beth would vary their PR coverage a bit. MSFD or Kathode, don't you guys get tired, if the gameplay and roleplayingness is so awesome as you say, of being constantly bashed in threads like these? Why the HELL hasn't the Beth PR department done *anything* about those aspects of the game? Don't you have ANY examples of quests, NPC, storylines, *anything* that you can give out? How can you get surprised abuot VD's post mocking the latest splooge-fest over Havok physics? can't you understand that no matter how cool what's being said actually is, the reason it's being mocked is that Oblivion coverage so far says NOTHING about the game itself? So far I know what will happen when:

a) I first enter a town (I'll see people roaming around doing their stuff instead of standing in place 24hrs a day)

b) I enter combat (I'll fight in FPMelee mode, using my own reflexes to TRY stuff, and the success of what I try being driven by gear and skills)

Now, some people here consider B a negative, others not. A is pretty much a positive. However, we know NOTHING ELSE. Coverage of the game so far is A, B, ad production values. It's OBVIOUS that whenever a new preview comes out and only mentions A, B, Patrick Stewart, or graphics, people will lose more and more faith in the quality of what is beyond that.

 

[Section8]

I tell you, it never gets old when you paralyze a guard in midswing and watch him tumble down the stairs, still in his swing pose, with his limbs realistically bouncing off every surface. I love havok.

Now, this would be an interesting feature tactically if it was implemented with a high degree of physical simulation. Obviously there's the Stair Dismount factor, where a tumbling guard takes damage from such a fall, which introduces an interesting positional advantage to be toyed with. On top of that, paralysing a single guard could theoretically send a line of guards toppling like dominoes, or for that matter, so could environmental objects like barrels.

Of course, it's doubtful the implementation would extend beyond the usual "realistic death animation" feature.