Game News Oblivion will wait for the next holiday season

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Mark and Recall are an exploit for being over-encumbered? Since when? That's gotta be the dumbest excuse for getting rid of it. It's a spell. In a game universe with magic. It has a purpose. Like Elwro said, might as well say healing spells are an exploit for when you're too hurt. Sneak should be an exploit too. OMG HE AVOIDED COMBAT!!!

 

[Wonder Cheese]

Mark and Recall are an exploit for being over-encumbered? Since when? That's gotta be the dumbest excuse for getting rid of it. It's a spell. In a game universe with magic. It has a purpose. Like Elwro said, might as well say healing spells are an exploit for when you're too hurt. Sneak should be an exploit too. OMG HE AVOIDED COMBAT!!!

I'm pretty sure that MSFD was using the term "exploit" somewhat jokingly as Mark/Recall had already been deemed (retardedly) an exploit by a previous poster. I have a feeling he was just going along with the joke and giving an example of when it was useful.

 

[Shagnak]

I'd prefer Mark and Recall to "insta transport" (with no penalty) to any map location/town you've already been to no matter where you are.

I thought MW handled that alright.
To use Mark and Recall you had to trek to somewhere to cast it anyway, and you had to be able to cast it (i.e. know some magic stuff). Given that you could only ever have one Mark at a time, it guaranteed a walk in the other direction to get to the place you want to be recalled from, preventing abuse.
And for location to location insta travel there was a monetary penalty (for mage guild teleporters and "giant flea" or boat transport).

Either way there were consequences for whichever mode of instant transport you chose.

They could easily have ensured that if you were over-encumbered you couldn't transport that much, as pointed out by others, so I don't see how aside from that it needs fixing or warrants removal.

 

[Elwro]

And for location to location insta travel there was a monetary penalty (for mage guild teleporters and "giant flea" or boat transport).

Perhaps teleporting should be instant, but some period of time should definitely pass while you're traveling on a Strider (or how were they called) or using a boat. Iirc MW handled this aspect properly.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

I like how DF handled fast travel.

You had the option of taking it careful and cautious, camping as you went. This way took longer, but your chance of random encounters was practically nil and you were fully refreshed upon arrival to your destination. Especially if you stayed at inns on the way. This also cost more money.

You also had the option to book ass to your destination and get there faster. This cost less gold but your chance of random encounters was high and you always arrived at your destination fatigued.

Getting a horse just made travel less time, but the options still held. The only time the options didn't hold is when you got a ship and used it for coastal travel. You were pretty much safe then.

Although, I do remember one time I actually had a random encounter on my ship. It's only happened once in my history of playing the game, but it did happen. I was fighting skeletal warriors on the deck of my ship.

 

[Shagnak]

And for location to location insta travel there was a monetary penalty (for mage guild teleporters and "giant flea" or boat transport).

Perhaps teleporting should be instant, but some period of time should definitely pass while you're traveling on a Strider (or how were they called) or using a boat. Iirc MW handled this aspect properly.

Yeah, I was generalising, and you're right on both counts.

You also had the option to book ass to your destination and get there faster. This cost less gold but your chance of random encounters was high and you always arrived at your destination fatigued.

I kinda like this idea, though not because it's realistic (in fact I haven't examined the logic behind it) but in that there should be consequences for taking what appears to be (at least initially) the "easy" way out.

 

[Rulion]

I like the way DF handled it too, but implementing that would be pointless in Oblivion. Why? Assuming its quests are not timed (like MW's), there's simply no rush to get anywhere. Thus, doing quick, reckless travel is kinda pointless unless you're doing it SOLELY for the random encounters. DF, on the other hand, always had an element of time. I need to get to such-and-such in 4 days, but oh shit, my OTHER quest needs to be completed a day or two after that...

 

[Rendelius]

I'd prefer Mark and Recall to "insta transport" (with no penalty) to any map location/town you've already been to no matter where you are.

Oh, there seems to be some misunderstanding. When you "fast travel", time passes in an appropriate way. So it isn't like teleporting.

 

[Shagnak]

I'd prefer Mark and Recall to "insta transport" (with no penalty) to any map location/town you've already been to no matter where you are.

Oh, there seems to be some misunderstanding. When you "fast travel", time passes in an appropriate way. So it isn't like teleporting.

No, no misunderstanding.
As already clarified above in my reply to Elwro, I was generalising by lumping MW's teleportation and carriage together. I am aware time will pass in the world for the latter, and therefore will most likely for "fast travel" in Oblivion.

By lumping them together as "insta" I am referring to the time passed for the player, not the character.
And I didn't mention time passing in the world as a consequence or penalty, as it doesn't seem to matter in MW.

Edit:
Oh, and before you suggest it, no, world time passing isn't a valid consequence of "fast travel" in Oblivion either, unless for some strange reason more world time passes if you choose the "fast travel" than if you were to travel in "real time".

 

[Sol Invictus]

Mark and Recall are an exploit for being over-encumbered? Since when? That's gotta be the dumbest excuse for getting rid of it. It's a spell. In a game universe with magic. It has a purpose. Like Elwro said, might as well say healing spells are an exploit for when you're too hurt. Sneak should be an exploit too. OMG HE AVOIDED COMBAT!!!

I'm pretty sure that MSFD was using the term "exploit" somewhat jokingly as Mark/Recall had already been deemed (retardedly) an exploit by a previous poster. I have a feeling he was just going along with the joke and giving an example of when it was useful.

Oh yes, I'm sure he was joking as it had been deemed, albeit 'retardedly' by me, and that he agrees upon the usefulness of mark/recall in spite of the god damn fact that the spell was removed, and the fact that it was explained why it was removed several times by the developers themselves on grounds that it was exploitable, and also unnecessary due to the implementation of the Travel Map (which is inaccessible from interiors, due to the exploit).

You seem to know very little about how the game works and how mark/recall might interfere with certain scripts in the game. Take for instance a dungeon that has a door which closes behind you the moment you enter and places you into what map and mission designers refer to as an 'arena', which is a map or location that locks you in, has you perform a task or two like perhaps solving a puzzle, and subsequently battling a bunch of skeletons that come pouring out once you solve this puzzle, before you can escape and progress onto the next point. Absolutely none of this would work, if you had mark/recall. It would simply break the script.

One alternative to removing mark/recall and keeping it would be to disable its use during these scripted events, but that would be really really lame and there would be absolutely no way to explain why that happened all the time; why your spell was rendered useless in certain instances. Removing it and replacing it with a better system that's less 'game breaking' is a much better solution, you must agree.

The dungeons in Morrowind felt very boring due to the fact that they seemed like randomly generated bland areas instead of handcrafted missions with interesting scripted events. That said, there's nothing wrong with scripted events that are flexible and allow you to solve the quests the way you prefer.

 

[Drakron]

Thats nice and all expect for one problem.

Its bullshit, the reason that was stated was that it was viewed as a exploit ... you know many game designers are simply sadistic and view anything that is fun and screws up with their ways to fuck people over as a "exploit".

You reasons also bar into a issue, if the player gets killed in one of those "door close and enemies flood in" he simply going to reload ... running away is and sould be a option to the player, only sadistic DMs make such crap to the players.

Also it sould be known you ALSO know very little of how the game work, if a mage escapes and the door is closed they:

A) Never create such a situation since its THEIR FAULT that happens.
B) Create alternative paths to the players that are not playing a killing machine can actualy play the damn game without having to go over mandatory combat because the level designers are lazy bastards.

The only thing that is lame is someone going out of their way to be a apologist ... its ok because knowing you I am going to see "Oblivion sucks" posts around a month after release.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Heh. I remember exploiting Mark / Recall all the time. It was the only real way to have any fun collecting hoardes of shit and taking it back "home" to sort into piles so that I could say I had one of everything. Good God, if I didn't have that, I would've binned Morrowind a hell of a lot sooner than I eventually did.

There are pack mules in this game now though, right?

 

[HardCode]

One alternative to removing mark/recall and keeping it would be to disable its use during these scripted events, but that would be really really lame and there would be absolutely no way to explain why that happened all the time; why your spell was rendered useless in certain instances. Removing it and replacing it with a better system that's less 'game breaking' is a much better solution, you must agree.

No, I don't agree. Bethesda solved navigation problems in Mournhold by disallowing levitate spells. While annoying at first, it was just an effect in a magical world. Removing Mark and Recall was just another task to remove to get the game out the door in time for the XBox 360 release ... and we ALL know how that plan went. The spells' removal is pure bullshit, plain and simple. Corporate bullshit to meet deadlines. Now that it all backfired and they can't get the game out in time for the holidays, how many people are going to say, "I waited all this time for THIS? WTF?" Everything stripped out of the game from Morrowind will suddenly appear to have no justification anymore due to the lengthened release time frame. People will be pissed, even the fan-fags, when all that shit is gone from the game and they had to wait an extra 2 - 3 months.

 

[Drakron]

Well that whole expansion was Interior Cells, levitation would show they were Interior Cells and naturaly that had to be disallowed in some way.

I see no indication that horses have storage capabilities ...

 

[Drakron]

Well that whole expansion was Interior Cells, levitation would show they were Interior Cells and naturaly that had to be disallowed in some way.

I see no indication that horses have storage capabilities ...

 

[Wonder Cheese]

Mark and Recall are an exploit for being over-encumbered? Since when? That's gotta be the dumbest excuse for getting rid of it. It's a spell. In a game universe with magic. It has a purpose. Like Elwro said, might as well say healing spells are an exploit for when you're too hurt. Sneak should be an exploit too. OMG HE AVOIDED COMBAT!!!

I'm pretty sure that MSFD was using the term "exploit" somewhat jokingly as Mark/Recall had already been deemed (retardedly) an exploit by a previous poster. I have a feeling he was just going along with the joke and giving an example of when it was useful.

Oh yes, I'm sure he was joking as it had been deemed, albeit 'retardedly' by me, and that he agrees upon the usefulness of mark/recall in spite of the god damn fact that the spell was removed, and the fact that it was explained why it was removed several times by the developers themselves on grounds that it was exploitable, and also unnecessary due to the implementation of the Travel Map (which is inaccessible from interiors, due to the exploit).

Besides the fact that the above is unreadable and makes no sense, it's been pointed out quite effectively already that it was neither an exploit nor does the Travel Map make Mark/Recall unnecessary. If I'm allowed to make my character jump in a game, and I find a way to jump into glitch areas, thus finding a way to exploit the "jump" feature, it doesn't make "jumping" an exploit. If the developer decides to make my character not able to jump in the next game because he doesn't want to deal with the possibility of me finding a way to exploit "jumping" again, that's his prerogative. But jumping or the inclusion of it wasn't an exploit.

You seem to know very little about how the game works and how mark/recall might interfere with certain scripts in the blah blah blah blah blah .

Useless crap snipped.
I made no comment about the in game mechanics of how mark/recall affects scripts or any such nonsense. I only expressed that I didn't consider it an exploit. Thanks for the off topic lecture. I'll put it in my useless info file under "blowhard."

 

[Psilon]

First, if spells like Divine Intervention are still around, Mark and Recall are hardly exploits. (If they're not, what the hell am I supposed to use for loot transferral? There aren't any pack mules, I can't buy a wagon, and I'm sure as hell not going to cast Feather every fifteen seconds on my way back to town.)

Second, so what if the dungeon breaks? You can't Mark an area you're not already in, and if the door stays locked then you just consider the dungeon "broken" and either redo the whole thing or give up on it.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

 

[Sol Invictus]

It's nice to see that the maturity of Otaku Hanzo on these boards hasn't improved, with random newcomers like Wonder Cheese lowering the average even further.

It's also nice to know that arguments with valid points made are shot down with a simple 'blah blah blah' line or an unamusing photoshopped image.

Besides the fact that the above is unreadable and makes no sense, i

Nothing I've said is difficult to comprehend. Please tell me if you need me to repeat anything in Basic English. I'll understand if you're not a natural speaker of the English language, but please don't try to demean my arguments with comments like these. You're only making a fool of yourself.

If the developer decides to make my character not able to jump in the next game because he doesn't want to deal with the possibility of me finding a way to exploit "jumping" again, that's his prerogative. But jumping or the inclusion of it wasn't an exploit.

So you're saying that if the developers add a spell that allows you to walk through walls and find that it has the potential of breaking quest paths when you use it, the game is at fault, rather than the spell itself, and the design of implementing it in the first place?

I made no comment about the in game mechanics of how mark/recall affects scripts or any such nonsense. I only expressed that I didn't consider it an exploit. Thanks for the off topic lecture. I'll put it in my useless info file under "blowhard."

In case you failed to grasp what I said about storyline mechanics, I must implore you to reconsider, if only for the sake of your education. Please don't expect everyone here to agree with you, and please don't expect those who disagree with you not to try and explain to you why they disagree. Clearly, you fail to understand why mark/recall would be game breaking because it is plain that you don't know anything about the game other than all the stupid little biases you have for it.

Mark and Recall are an exploit for being over-encumbered? Since when? That's gotta be the dumbest excuse for getting rid of it. It's a spell. In a game universe with magic. It has a purpose. Like Elwro said, might as well say healing spells are an exploit for when you're too hurt. Sneak should be an exploit too. OMG HE AVOIDED COMBAT!!!

I never said that avoiding combat was an exploit, though it may very well prove to be the case with Oblivion as I am betting there is going to be some unavoidable combat in the game, much like there was a lot of unavoidable combat in Morrowind (you had to kill Dagoth). I just said that escaping from the dungeon without completing the quest would be potentially game breaking and thus exploitable, especially if you could re-enter the cave even after it was 'sealed' from the inside. If it were sealed on the outside permanently, and were you unable to return to the interior, it would be game breaking.

Oh yes, I'm sure you could argue that a 'good designer' wouldn't implement such locations, but I don't care about your arguments because such arguments would clearly be meant to demean the quality of Bethesda's work. No, the simple solution is to remove a potentially game breaking feature like mark/recall.

It's Ockham's Razor. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Second, so what if the dungeon breaks? You can't Mark an area you're not already in, and if the door stays locked then you just consider the dungeon "broken" and either redo the whole thing or give up on it.

If the dungeon breaks and the dungeon is a plot critical area, the whole game breaks. Whoopie do, game over? Even if it wasn't, it wouldn't be much fun if ANY dungeon in the game were potentially breakable with the mark/recall spell. Players wouldn't want to use it out of fear that it would screw the game up for them and force them to reload, and whenever a game forces you to reload, the game just stops being enjoyable because the save and reload function becomes a necessary part of gameplay rather than an out-of-game utility like it's supposed to be.

The only games to utilize saving and reloading as an actual part of the game and fit it into the setting (and no I'm not talking about stupid save gems either) were Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, and Anachronox.

 

[Lowry]

@ Sol

Actually thats the first "good" reason ive heard for removing mark & recall, the dungeons do seem to be far more complicated in Oblivian than in Morrowind (which isnt necesarily saying much.) For instance where the walls come down in the dungeon that is shown on the 20min demo before a gas is released could be one of the areas you suggest might be in the game....

edit : i would say theyd also have to remove the intervention spells as well in this case which im not sure has been confirmed ?

 

[franc kaos]

Oh yes, I'm sure you could argue that a 'good designer' wouldn't implement such locations, because such arguments would clearly demean the quality of Bethesda's work. No, the simple solution is to remove a potentially game breaking feature like mark/recall.
It's Ockham's Razor. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Fixed.

 

[Twinfalls]

It's Ockham's Razor. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

You really are a dumb bastard. Ockham's razor is not 'go for the simplest solution to a problem'. The Ockhams's razor principle applies to making conclusions based on evidence - if you must choose between conclusions, choose the one with the least number of assumptions. Go and read about it on Wikipedia or something. It is not relevant to what you are talking about.

 

[Sol Invictus]

One) Ockham's Razor proposes that in a problem, the simplest and most obvious explanation is usually the correct one.

Go learn about metaphors before you decide to lecture me on the English language, idiot.


Two) I never knew that winning debates and beating down your opponent's arguments could be achieved by the use of pure semantics. Try arguing the points rather than my usage of the term Ockham's Razor. Might I suggest going back to school and taking some lessons on debate before you persist on annoying me with your little jibes.

 

[Twinfalls]

One) Ockham's Razor proposes that in a problem, the simplest and most obvious explanation is usually the correct one.

Explanation, dickbrain - not solution. It relates to making conclusions. It does not apply to your suggestion that 'removing mark/recall is the best solution because it is the simplest.'

Try arguing the points rather than my usage of the term Ockham's Razor.

It was not my interest whatseover to argue the points you were making. I was simply pointing out what a dumb bastard you are for wrongly invoking Ockham's Razor in such a pompous manner.