Game News Oblivion will wait for the next holiday season

[Saint_Proverbius]

Well since magic doesn't exist in the real world, the more complex a game gets the harder it can be to resolve issues. Why is it a stretch to say that countermeasures and anti-spell spells would be developed. We have bullets, and we have armor, we have cell phones, and we have cell phone blockers, we have peeping toms and we have curtains, we have disease and we have vaccines. If we had teleporters, people would be working on anti-teleporter shielding.

Not to mention there are some pretty nifty things you can do with magical limitations beyond just saying, "Nope! No magic here!" For example, you could have areas where magic is deluted or harder to perform instead of just negated. A spell might take more mana to cast, longer to cast, have lesser effect, or so on. Then again, you could have areas like in Undermountain in D&D where you cast something and it totally does something different or backfires on you.

 

[franc kaos]

Well since magic doesn't exist in the real world, the more complex a game gets the harder it can be to resolve issues. Why is it a stretch to say that countermeasures and anti-spell spells would be developed. We have bullets, and we have armor, we have cell phones, and we have cell phone blockers, we have peeping toms and we have curtains, we have disease and we have vaccines. If we had teleporters, people would be working on anti-teleporter shielding.

Not to mention there are some pretty nifty things you can do with magical limitations beyond just saying, "Nope! No magic here!" For example, you could have areas where magic is deluted or harder to perform instead of just negated. A spell might take more mana to cast, longer to cast, have lesser effect, or so on. Then again, you could have areas like in Undermountain in D&D where you cast something and it totally does something different or backfires on you.

Both good suggestions...

Or you design the game from the ground up like THQ have done with Titan Quest...

One of the first things that jumped out at me is that, as of yet, Titan Quest has no real storyline or characters, just a setting -- Ancient Greece and Egypt. Indeed, according to Iron Lore, they believe that the storyline of an RPG is so important that they're not going to risk screwing it up by doing it themselves. Instead they've spent the first 18 months of the development cycle getting the technology and the gameplay right. They wanted the game's technological systems to be fun enough in their own right that a great storyline and a deep, rich world would be the icing on the cake, not a desperate attempt to hide flawed gameplay structures.

The nuts and bolts of the game are laid down first then the mechanics of gameplay, then finally the story. If Beth had done this, would they have cut so many things because the engine couldn't handle it.

Of course, if most of these things are gone because of a lack of animators, then forgoe one major voice star and hire another twenty animators with the money you saved. :wink:

 

[kris]

And "you can't cast that spell here!" isn't an artificial way of limiting the player?

Yes. But in this case we talk about "special situation". I would prefer with less or no situations like that. like being able to be looked in five places, but only have this gimmick in one place that is critical in some way.

 

[Twinfalls]

One of the first things that jumped out at me is that, as of yet, Titan Quest has no real storyline or characters, just a setting -- Ancient Greece and Egypt. Indeed, according to Iron Lore, they believe that the storyline of an RPG is so important that they're not going to risk screwing it up by doing it themselves. Instead they've spent the first 18 months of the development cycle getting the technology and the gameplay right. They wanted the game's technological systems to be fun enough in their own right that a great storyline and a deep, rich world would be the icing on the cake, not a desperate attempt to hide flawed gameplay structures.

The nuts and bolts of the game are laid down first then the mechanics of gameplay, then finally the story. If Beth had done this, would they have cut so many things because the engine couldn't handle it.

How do you know Beth didn't do this? From what I've read the CS and AI systems have been worked on from day one. And I'm not so sure I agree with this idea, that story should be an 'icing on the cake'. The makers of the Gothic games had admitted that the second one was not as good as the first because - despite the technology and graphics being much better, the first one was built with the story and setting in mind right from the beginning. The second one was not.

 

[NOVD]

I'm not being 'snobby'. It is not that he's merely mistaken - its his sophistry in invoking it, completely incorrectly, to bolster an argument. Plus a complete refusal to admit he's wrong. It's not 'completely forgiveable' to be a pompous sophist and wrong to boot. Especially one who harasses a Polish forum user for misspelling English words.

I thought you were acting snobbishly because you were making it sound like Sol Invictus was an idiot for misunderstanding Occam's Razor, not because I incorrectly thought Sol Invictus was an amazing individual. Sol Invictus's misunderstanding is often made even in academic circles, so it's definitely forgiveable.

For clarification, what is his sophistry in invoking it?

Being snobby is formalising it and then quibbling over whether "simpler" in "the simpler is to be preferred" entails 'making the least assumptions' or not, as you've just done.

I can't take credit for the formalization. Anyway, I liked your way of characterizing Occam's Razor (it's very consistent with scientific holism); it's just that it's difficult to use.

 

[MarkQuinn]

Of course, if most of these things are gone because of a lack of animators, then forgoe one major voice star and hire another twenty animators with the money you saved.

Problem with that is Bethesda are trying to expand to a much wider market, newcomers unfamiliar with the series who think the voice of their beloved starship captain is a much bigger bonus than spears. It's not the front end money savings that's the factor here, but the bottom line profit. Jean Luc makes more of a profit, so he's in ... animators are out.

By the way have I come to a place where I can safely say Pete Hines is a prick who doesn't know the first thing about public relations and not get flamed by mindless lemmings? Just checking.

MQ

 

[Whipporowill]

By the way have I come to a place where I can safely say Pete Hines is a prick who doesn't know the first thing about public relations and not get flamed by mindless lemmings? Just checking.

Haha, BOY did you come to the right place. You're pretty much free to post everything you feel like, as long as you don't expect others to agree with you or behave themselves.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

By the way have I come to a place where I can safely say Pete Hines is a prick who doesn't know the first thing about public relations and not get flamed by mindless lemmings?

We'll give you the Pete Hines bit but some would say the mindless lemmings are debatable.

Page 18?

 

[pantheon]

Bethesda must have failed the 360 quality check- my bet is for frame rates. You don't start putting up billboards unless you are sure the game is ready.

They have said the ending is .. 'uhm big'.. We know they have problems with lots of npc's on screen and with loading large towns/cities.

Things could be worse than we think - the next 4 month cycle could involve major changes to the story line so battles are smaller and ripping out features so they meet the 360 fps. The game really could be being dumbed down for xbox users.....

 

[Excalibur]

its offcial now, pete made an official post on the TES boards

 

[Atrokkus]

Hmm... I wonder if the Bethesda graphic programers are good enough to make flexible graphic settings that are available to the end user and would allow him to run the game even on a minimal requirement rig. For instance, what if someone's video chipset does not support pixel shaders 3.0, or even 2.0 (there isn't much difference technically)? There should be a switch that makes the fancy water beomce ordinary old-style "matte" water. The same applies to all those soil erosion features, although I think that it is definately a troublesome affair to limit all those features... Anyways, I would like to hear developers' comments on that. What minimum configuration is required. For instance, if I overclock my GeForce3 Titanium, and tweak the config file (you mentioned it contained over 300 parameters) would I be able to run Oblivion, albeit with extreme lags? Just interesting.

 

[MarkQuinn]

And with the following, I seek asylum at The Codex.

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... try3262629

Pete, at the time of writing this post the poll stands at 23% "now I'm just frustrated" and that category is in second place. Is this a statistic which alarms you?

Yes, yes, I know. I've read your filthy little FAQ post in which you say (and have always said) not to expect too much information because:

That's how I like it, that's how Todd likes it, so that's how it's going to be

Gotta love a public relations guy who tells his customers (read the following with deep New York goodfellah accent) "how it's gonna be".

Yeah. "Yo, dis is how it's gonna be and if you's don't like it I'll break your f---in' head, capice?"

Real stand up guy, you are. And now this admitedly very unscientific survey shows you have alienated 1 out of 4 viewers of this post.

Ya think "the way you like it" might not always be the way your customers "like it?" And ya think it might be a good business move to keep your customers somewhat informed? Letting us get THIS CLOSE to "holidays 2005" and dropping such a bomb on us is not my idea of good public relations. Or do you dread your customers the way so many amateur PR guys do? Do you see them, their questions and complaints, as an obstacle to your day? Would you prefer not bothering with customers at all? Is your little "this is how I like it" attitude of minimal information your way of doing minimal work throughout the week? Hey, I'm just asking. I don't see you do too much. It's a pitiful shame when a DEVELOPER is a much greater and more frequent diplomat of your company than you are. And yes, I know you're busy promoting more games than just Oblivion. I played one of them recently. It was called "Breeders’ Cup World Thoroughbred Championships". I packed it up after 15 minutes of play and returned it the next day. Garbage, (doesn't compare to French-made HRM, which wasn't all that good in and of itself) and since I'd lay odds most people on this forum have never heard of BCWTC, there's more proof of your work ethic. And anyway, Oblivion is your bread and butter --- you know that. So what do you do? You treat your customers like things to be avoided. When they get angry and aim some of that anger at you, you snap back with smart comments which does nothing but prove your lack of confidence and professionalism.

Oh, and as of the completion of this thread, here's where the two numbers I'm watching:


QUOTE
Yes, im so sick of this, the fourms are useless and information is scarce. 22.41%

No, now im just frustrated. 20.69%


Get out of the business, Pete. Do some career-pathing and find a job that requires absolutely no people skills. I can see you working with ant larvae, to be honest. Hey, who knows, maybe you'll find a cure for the Avian Flu! Who knows what those little ants have stored in their tunnels! See Pete, things are looking up for you already!

 

[voodoo1man]

By the way have I come to a place where I can safely say Pete Hines is a prick who doesn't know the first thing about public relations and not get flamed by mindless lemmings? Just checking.

No, you won't get flamed by mindless lemmings here for insulting Pete Hines. They'll flame you for plenty of other stupid reasons though. As to what I personally think of him, well, I already posted my thoughts in another thread. http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10106

And with the following, I seek asylum at The Codex.

Hehehe, it's hilarious how many TES board refugees we're getting lately. I guess the Codex is kind of like the promised land, which certainly justifies Saint's title.

 

[Data4]

I'm gonna give that a 10 out of 10 for balls. I'm still a newbie here by general standards, but welcome to the codex, nevertheless. I've a feeling you'll fit in swell here.

-D4

 

[MarkQuinn]

I wish I had Tim Allen's famed Omega 13 Device so I could activate it, go back in time and NOT click that link. :shock:

Let me briefly explain why I have developed a true and healthy hatred for Pete Hines. Honestly guys, I really mean hatred.

I can deal with ineptitude by itself. Not everyone is capable. As long as they stay out of my way, so be it.

I can deal with arrogance by itself. If someone is arrogant I realize it is their compensation for other weaknesses.

What I loathe, what I despise, what churns the hatred in me more than anything else is the COMBINATION of ineptitude and arrogance --- i.e. Pete Hines.

And STILL, I can usually ignore it. Until it gets in my way. Now the first contention the majority of posters here will probably have with me is my excitement and obsession with this upcoming title. The stories back at the Bethesda forums indicate that the Codex is not particularly fond of The Elder Scrolls IV and all its new-fangled innovations. Blame me for coming into the series late with Morrowind. But this is neither here nor there. Bottom line, I almost lost a week of vacation because I waited so long to put it in. My company blacks out vacation time in December and January. Had Bethesda's extraordinarily arrogant and inept Public Relations Department been upfront with us from day one --- if they had a policy of being upfront with their customers in general --- I would've sensed danger long ago and taken the damn week off much earlier than this. But I didn't. And now I am burned out at work, pissed off at the world, and --- although my hatred is possibly misplaced --- I have a vendetta against this slimy Michael Keaton look-alike.

So, Pete Hines got in my way. Now I wish to play my small part in humiliating him every chance I get. Since I can't have Oblivion, I will make humiliating Pete Hines my obsession (at least until this post is complete and I get it off my chest --- then I probably won't obsess over it again for a few more days when I think of some new and more outrageous way of expressing my hatred for the impotent little snake). If anyone has some webspace they'd like to share I'd even go so far as to create a "Pete Hines Sucks" website and everyone who joined the "Pete Hines Sucks" fanclub could post the link in their sig and frequent TES forums just to be a thorn in the little prick's side.

Oh, and Vodoo1man ... while your image was truly vile, I really think you're being way too kind to Pete.

MQ

 

[Doppelganger]

Is everyone else going to double-post their ES crap here, as well? Why not just rename the forum RPGOblivion while we're at it?

A link would have been enough.

 

[whitemithrandir]

Is everyone else going to double-post their ES crap here, as well? Why not just rename the forum RPGOblivion while we're at it?

A link would have been enough.

Would you click a link with all these tubgirls and goatse.cx'es flowing around?

 

[MarkQuinn]

Is everyone else going to double-post their ES crap here, as well? Why not just rename the forum RPGOblivion while we're at it?

A link would have been enough.

Would you click a link with all these tubgirls and goatse.cx'es flowing around?

No no, please, Doppel has an excellent point. I myself have been diagnosed with a bad case of Crooked Finger from scrolling through too many reposts when a mere link would have sufficed. As I am new here, and as I get to know the people who frequent this forum, it's important for me to learn what posters have the most intelligent insight and bring up the most important, pressing matters. Thank you Doppel for informing me of your unique brand of forum etiquette. Scrolling is bad. I'll try not to forget it.

Is everyone here that much of a cunt?

MQ

 

[MarkQuinn]

Sorry for that last bit. I don't think he's a cunt. He's just all too reminiscent to me of the typical ES poster who looks for something, anything, everything to bitch about just because he likes the sound of his fingers clicking the keyboard. And whose case of attention defecit disorder is too severe to allow him to follow the conversation.

Now Pete Hines, there's a cunt for you.

MQ <--- back on track

 

[aboyd]

Is everyone here that much of a cunt?

Well, yeah. A bunch of free-speaking cunts that don't seem to delete anything or ban anyone, but cunts nonetheless.

Now is probably a good time to weigh free-speechification versus the inevitable byproduct of free-speechification, and decide if it's worthwhile to stick it out.

-T

 

[kingcomrade]

shut up assface

 

[Dreagon]

For some reason this whole ongoing drama reminds me of Deus Ex 2. Things taken out, things combined, and Xbox lurking in the shadows, defensive developers.

 

[Rendelius]

Bethesda must have failed the 360 quality check- my bet is for frame rates. You don't start putting up billboards unless you are sure the game is ready.

Second part of the sentence sounds reasonable, but isn't *g*.

You have to book those billboards in advance, and you can only drop out of the contract without heavy penalties if a) there would be another customer on the waiting list or b) you did your cancellation early enough (which can be as much as 6 weeks ahead).

So I guess that when they came to realize that they won't be ready for the Xbox launch, it was already too late to cancel the billboards. They must have cancelled quite some ads, as I have heard that they weren't really plastering the magazines in the current issues (seems that some couldn't be revoked, though).

As to the Xbox QA failure: could well be. From what I have heard it also could have been that the balancing wasn't really done (that was a problem in Morrowind: with a lvl5 character you were able to buy extremely powerful stuff already, and alchemy was way too strong IMHO).

 

[Drakron]

Well Take 2 knew so its not they are going to suffer much but stuff like ths does throw the marketing timetable out.

But yes, its a disaster when they simply failed to say "we will push back the release because its simply not ready on the expected date" and people had to read about the delay on a finacial report of the co-publisher ... I wonder what the hell they were thinking? that a magic fairy would fix the problems so it would meet Xbox 360 release date?

What the hell were they waiting? when Take 2 made the report they sould be around one month from going Gold ... would they try push a Valve and blame the delay on a self leaked unfishied Alpha?

Honestly goes a long away, this is a PC developed game that was ported to Xbox 360 and then ported back to PC ... I wonder if MS did not asked to keep it under a lid since they have that whole "Xbox 360 is so easy to program and the PS3 is a bith" mantra they been feeding.

 

[pantheon]

I think Beth failed the quality check and then tried to negitiate with Microsoft to get some kind of dispensation. Thats why things were quiet for 3-4 days. Take2 had no choice but to include the worst case scenario in their report.

Microsoft wouldn't let Beth release without major increases to frame rate - Beth now have to further optimise the game and delete stuff if necessary - and I bet it won't be graphics capability they delete.