Oblivion won't be the worst game ever.

[funkbutter]

Pfft.

Sorry, I couldn't find a thread titled "Bryce777's views on why Oblivion is the worst game in history (Even though it hasn't come out yet)". Maybe the search function isn't working?

People who are bitching about Oblivion being "Dumbed down" and mainstreamed so that 12 year olds can play it incense me. These people use Morrowind as the basis for their arguments saying that it's not mainstream and it was what OB should have built off of; however, they fail to realize that an even greater volume of bitching flowed through the forums before Morrowind's release saying that it was being dumbed down after Daggerfall. But Morrowind was NOT mainstream. Despite the fact that combat isn't turn based, doesn't rely 100% on your character skills (even though it's still 90% character skill) and has good graphics, Oblivion is still so far from being a mainstream "RPG" like Fable it's not even funny.

THIS IS NOT D&D. GO PLAY BALDUR'S GATE 2.

Vault Dweller:

What this is is the future of real, single player RPG's. Radiant AI is "Unimpressive", a "cheap gimmick"? Radiant AI is the future... The future of games, not just RPG's, is Radiant AI. To say it's "Unimpressive" is as silly as comparing Oblivion to something like the Diablo series, Fable, or a D&D game.

Physics are useless in RPG's? It's the physic's system that allows for smart, tactical gameply as evidenced by the springing of a trap in the demo video. Traditionally good RPG's have required thought to master challenges and this takes the necessity of problem solving and thought to a new level. Saying that it makes this game mainstream is silly. Mainstream adventure games and other games like Half-Life 2 that make use of physics do so because that's the sole thing those games are about. The physics system in Ob. just adds to the immersion. Hey, there's a funny word, IMMERSION. This is the single definetive measuring stick by which an RPG should be measured, how immersive is it? That's the point of an RPG isn't it? To immerse you in a different world.

The combat is arcade? The fact that you have to block with your keyboard (If you think this is a "twitch" skill... seriously holding down control? How hard is that?) and you always hit when you swing doesn't make combat arcade. The damage you do and whether or not your block actually does anything is still dependent on your character just like good ole' D&D games. It just adds to immersion when you have more realistic combat. The blood on the sword doesn't hurt either.

Graphics. I'm not big on graphics, it's the last thing that I look at when I go to play a game. If they're good, which they are in Oblivion, great. If not... It doesn't affect immersion as much as gameplay and sound do so.. Oh well. I play WoW currently and the laughably cartoonish graphics don't phase me at all. I'm not saying WoW is an awsome game, RPG, or MMO.. It's mediocre in most areas (ESP. PVP), I'm just saying it's shesity graphics don't bother me. Again though, Oblivions graphics, which are far more than decent, I'd even say they're as quality as the graphics of other games' cinematics, just add to the immersion factor.

The persuasion system sucks? Just because it's not D&D where you click PERSUADE and hope you roll a good number doesn't mean it sucks, dear. I think it's the most intuitive system I've seen in a game yet. And again, IT'S STILL SKILL BASED. If your character sucks at it, it's not going to work... The system it uses, however, just furthers the immersion.

Finally... I wouldn't care if your character was static from the beginning and you couldn't even change your race/sex/class, the world Oblivion features is the most non-linear, immersive, roleplaying haven of a gameworld ever created, EVER, PERIOD. That's what this game does that no other game in history has done. Esp. D&D games. D&D games have pretty scenery, but the invisible walls and the fact that you can't traverse steep hills or logs in the way are by no means a posative quality of those games.

So.. the question for Bryce777 still stands: What do you, personally, think makes Oblivion a bad/pseudo-RPG, and what would you offer as an example of a good RPG?

 

[fraunclein]

Gentlemen, what you're witnessing here is retardomus expotentius, a rapidly multiplying specimen of half-sentient internet fanboy.

The species is pretty harmless, but please, try not to attract it's attention unless you want to accelerate it's nest warding instinct. This may lead to a rapid growth within it's cell tissue which may cause minor infestation within the area it registers as a threat. Too much exposure to this infestation may lead to minor loss of brain cells, nausea and illusions of self omnipotency.

Safety first.

 

[bryce777]

Gentlemen, what you're witnessing here is retardomus expotentius, a rapidly multiplying specimen of half-sentient internet fanboy.

.

Thanks for identifying yourself candidly, at least.

Go bitch about it to the other halwits on the TES forums if you want.

I really am a supergenius, and I really am highly educated, and to all the other supergeniuses, my views are obvious. I have explained as carefully as possible, but I also explained your inability to comprehend things and how it is destined to descend into a brawl.

Sorry, my unfriend, but you are a joke. I did notice the 'mainstream' RPG you mentioned was fable. That's pretty rich.

You need to go back to man school a while before you post on this board again

 

[funkbutter]

Pfft.

Me? Fanboy?

Rofl.

Rofl.

Rofl.

Elderscrolls is so far from being my favorite series it's not even funny. Despite the fact that I WoW has more bad qualities than you can shake a stick at, I still like it more than single player games.

PvP > Single player or PvE all day, every day, any day.

Funny, I'm pretty sure Oblivion doesn't have any PvP, but I'll still defend it against people like BRYCE777 who make themselves out to be highclass by talking about scotch and how Ob is mainstream. Oh, and BTW, the fact that the game Fable even exists proves the title of this thread way wrong.

 

[obediah]

The graphics are incredible, the physics system impressive, the RAI interesting, and the combat system is enjoyable.

thats what makes a good RPG alright.

I never understood the fasination with physics, it's rarely used in a meaningful way. WOWIE I CAN THROW SHIT AND ITS LIKE REAL LIFE, IM GLAD SHIT GOT AXED FOR THIS.

It's terribly gimmicky and/or pointless.

RAI has yet to seem any impressive. It sounds like it's exactly the same as Gothic 2's scripted sceduels, but with very non-frequent random events thrown in.
.

Physics definitely is pure gimicky in oblivion. RAI will have it's moments I suspect, but will still be "wow that was neat" rather than roleplay for teh win.

However, both physics and ai are going to bring a lot of interesting things to what's left of the rpg genre over the next 5-10 years. A physics system that allows all those polygons to really interact is the real payoff of the forced march to 3D. The more detailed the world, the more interesting things AI engines will do in them. While not essential for RP, actual interesting AI behaviour is a good thing.

Unfortunately for the indie developer, both of these are going to be the domain of licensed middleware and systems used within a developer. EA, god strike them down, has figured this out and by spreading the cost of developing this middleware over dozens of sequels, they are going to save tons of money and destroy everyone in the eyecandy and whizbang feature arms race.

 

[fraunclein]

Thanks for identifying yourself candidly, at least.

Excuse me, good sir, but i wasn't referring to you.

 

[Chefe]

But Morrowind was NOT mainstream.

Who care's if it's mainstream? Have you not ready any other posts on here? What we're worried about is how good of a game and how good of an RPG it will be. Seriously, who the fuck cares if it gets world-wide recognition. If the next trend was playing deep, complex RPGs... it'd be great.

You've completely missed every point, and your post reeks of rampant idiocy and ignorance. Congratulations.

 

[whitemithrandir]

Re: Pfft.

<bullshit>

You gotta be fucking joking me. Are there really people this dense and stupid?

People who are bitching about Oblivion being "Dumbed down" and mainstreamed so that 12 year olds can play it incense me. These people use Morrowind as the basis for their arguments saying that it's not mainstream and it was what OB should have built off of;

What? No. Morrowind was mainstreamed. Morrowind was dumbed down. Morrowind was a big empty world with no soul and terrible hack and slash combat.[/quote]

however, they fail to realize that an even greater volume of bitching flowed through the forums before Morrowind's release saying that it was being dumbed down after Daggerfall. But Morrowind was NOT mainstream. Despite the fact that combat isn't turn based, doesn't rely 100% on your character skills (even though it's still 90% character skill) and has good graphics, Oblivion is still so far from being a mainstream "RPG" like Fable it's not even funny.

I was on the TES forums durring Morrowind's development, so I know EXACTLY what people were bitching about, and you know what the biggest gripe about Morrowind was? THE FACT THAT YOU COULD NOT ROLEPLAY! That's right. Given any quest, any story branch, any side arc, the player COULD NOT MAKE A SINGLE meaningful decision! NONE of the NPC's had flavor or pizazz because they were all WIKIPEDIA CLONES of each other. THOSE are the main gripes.

What this is is the future of real, single player RPG's. Radiant AI is "Unimpressive", a "cheap gimmick"? Radiant AI is the future... The future of games, not just RPG's, is Radiant AI. To say it's "Unimpressive" is as silly as comparing Oblivion to something like the Diablo series, Fable, or a D&D game.

What the fuck? Do you know something we don't? As far as the devs have released, Radiant AI is pretty much just a dressed up character scripting system. Show me proof it's anything revolutionary, in terms of screenshots or gameplay footage (sans the staged set-dog-on-fire-trick. Even the devs admit it was staged.)

Physics are useless in RPG's? It's the physic's system that allows for smart, tactical gameply as evidenced by the springing of a trap in the demo video.

How is that different from the traditional "hit the right spot and trap springs" method? How does adding physics ADD to the dimension of ROLEPLAYING?

Traditionally good RPG's have required thought to master challenges and this takes the necessity of problem solving and thought to a new level. Saying that it makes this game mainstream is silly. Mainstream adventure games and other games like Half-Life 2 that make use of physics do so because that's the sole thing those games are about. The physics system in Ob. just adds to the immersion. Hey, there's a funny word, IMMERSION. This is the single definetive measuring stick by which an RPG should be measured, how immersive is it? That's the point of an RPG isn't it? To immerse you in a different world.

IMMERSION? LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT IMMERSION, SON:

GOOD dialogue - that's immersion.
MEANINGFUL choices - that's immersion.
DECISIVE consequences - that's immersion.

Good graphics? Gimmick.
Some smart scripting? Gimmick.
Newtonian arrow flight? Gimmick.

Until I see solid evidence of the former, I haven't SEEN ANYTHING conclusive about how immersive the game will be.

The combat is arcade? The fact that you have to block with your keyboard (If you think this is a "twitch" skill... seriously holding down control? How hard is that?) and you always hit when you swing doesn't make combat arcade. The damage you do and whether or not your block actually does anything is still dependent on your character just like good ole' D&D games. It just adds to immersion when you have more realistic combat. The blood on the sword doesn't hurt either.

Here's the point:

.

Here's you:

.<-------500000 miles --------> You

Graphics. I'm not big on graphics, it's the last thing that I look at when I go to play a game. If they're good, which they are in Oblivion, great. If not... It doesn't affect immersion as much as gameplay and sound do so.. Oh well. I play WoW currently and the laughably cartoonish graphics don't phase me at all. I'm not saying WoW is an awsome game, RPG, or MMO.. It's mediocre in most areas (ESP. PVP), I'm just saying it's shesity graphics don't bother me. Again though, Oblivions graphics, which are far more than decent, I'd even say they're as quality as the graphics of other games' cinematics, just add to the immersion factor.

Yeah, okay, great.

The persuasion system sucks? Just because it's not D&D where you click PERSUADE and hope you roll a good number doesn't mean it sucks, dear. I think it's the most intuitive system I've seen in a game yet. And again, IT'S STILL SKILL BASED. If your character sucks at it, it's not going to work... The system it uses, however, just furthers the immersion.

So you think playing tetris with someone's CGI face is immersion? What the fuck are you smoking? Skill checks, at least, aren't gimmicky; they're pretty honest for what they are: the translation of the abilities of your character to the action s/he is performing. Straightforward, simple, MAKES SENSE. Adding a sort of minigame seems superflous, gimmicky, and absolutely UN-FUCKING-NECCESSARY.

Finally... I wouldn't care if your character was static from the beginning and you couldn't even change your race/sex/class, the world Oblivion features is the most non-linear, immersive, roleplaying haven of a gameworld ever created, EVER, PERIOD. That's what this game does that no other game in history has done. Esp. D&D games. D&D games have pretty scenery, but the invisible walls and the fact that you can't traverse steep hills or logs in the way are by no means a posative quality of those games.

Hey, thanks for plugging Beth's game. Your check is in the mail.

Seriously, WTF? Do you have any proof to back this up? Any solid screenshot/gameplay video to show HOW EXACTLY the Oblivion world will be the bestest shit ever?

So.. the question for Bryce777 still stands: What do you, personally, think makes Oblivion a bad/pseudo-RPG, and what would you offer as an example of a good RPG?

Search these forums. Read the RPG Codex article. Everything that's been stated has been stated already. We're not going to restate it for your lazy ass.

Good RPG's: Listen up:

Planescape: Torment
Fallout
Arcanum

Now your turn. Show us proof that the world of Oblivion will have a rich background with meaningful dialogue, plot arcs, deep characters, and overeaching atmosphere. Go on, show me.

You can't, can you? I can accept the fact that everyone has different tastes on what makes a good RPG, but barging in here uninformed trying to dislodge someone else's rediculous rant with one of your own is just stupid.

GG now gtfo.

Godot: ...

 

[fraunclein]

Funny, I'm pretty sure Oblivion doesn't have any PvP, but I'll still defend it against people like BRYCE777 who make themselves out to be highclass by talking about scotch and how Ob is mainstream.

Why?

Oh, and BTW, the fact that the game Fable even exists proves the title of this thread way wrong.

Well, it's good that we're in agreement then.

 

[Chefe]

Someone run an IP check plz.

 

[funkbutter]

Gentlemen, what you're witnessing here is retardomus expotentius, a rapidly multiplying specimen of half-sentient internet fanboy.

.

Thanks for identifying yourself candidly, at least.

Go bitch about it to the other halwits on the TES forums if you want.

I really am a supergenius, and I really am highly educated, and to all the other supergeniuses, my views are obvious. I have explained as carefully as possible, but I also explained your inability to comprehend things and how it is destined to descend into a brawl.

Sorry, my unfriend, but you are a joke. I did notice the 'mainstream' RPG you mentioned was fable. That's pretty rich.

You need to go back to man school a while before you post on this board again

No but seriously, Grats on being way smarter than me. /Madprops.

I don't know why me referring to Fable was "rich". I'm new to this internet game forum elitist prick vs. fanboy scene, these are the first posts I've made on this forum, ever. With this being said, please, enlighten me as to why Oblivion sucks and what an example of a good RPG may be?

 

[whitemithrandir]

I don't know why me referring to Fable was "rich". I'm new to this internet game forum elitist prick vs. fanboy scene, these are the first posts I've made on this forum, ever. With this being said, please, enlighten me as to why Oblivion sucks and what an example of a good RPG may be?

Read the article. Do searches. God knows we've listed megabytes worths of reasons in the past few months.

 

[Twinfalls]

Oh my fucking word funkbutter cannot be real......

I just wanted to say:

./Silver Jews/Tanglewood Numbers:
./Stephen Malkmus/Face the Truth:

Thankyou for mentioning the two best records of last year (and probably this year too).

Carry on.

 

[galsiah]

Re: Pfft.

These people use Morrowind as the basis for their arguments saying that it's not mainstream and it was what OB should have built off of...

No they don't. Mostly it's "Morrowind was bad and this is worse."

Radiant AI is "Unimpressive", a "cheap gimmick"? Radiant AI is the future...

Radiant AI is probably good, but overhyped. It's nothing amazingly new - it is compared to Morrowind, but other games have used similar techniques for quite a while. It's not "the future": NPCs will respond more convincingly, but they still won't learn, adapt or form new rules of their own.

Physics are useless in RPG's? ...That's the point of an RPG isn't it? To immerse you in a different world.

Not useless, but certainly not that important. Good physics is nice - that's all. The point of an RPG is to allow you to Play a Role - to shape your character and make important decisions according to your character. If physics help you pay attention to that role then that's nice. If money is spent licensing and developing physics at the expense of sticking with the same unfortunate dialogue and character system as in Morrowind, that is a bad thing. Games can't do everything well. Doing physics well (unnecessarily) means money was taken away from other aspects - most of which are more important.
Traps and various other "immersive" physics situations can be scripted easily enough in any case without much trouble. They won't look quite as good, but who cares? - it shouldn't be an RPG priority.

I don't have too much problem with the combat, so I won't disagree (or agree) with you there. Graphics aren't important, as you say.

The persuasion system sucks?

Yes it does. Persuasion should involve dialogue, or perhaps a single die roll occasionally. Persuasion should feel like persuasion, or be over quickly - the Morrowind system was stupid, since the player would stand and click again and again. The Oblivion system is stupid because the player will play a guess the number (1-4) mini-game for a significant time.
Unless a good system can be thought of, which offers some appropriate challenge, and feels like persuasion, it should be done quickly with one die roll (and without the option to click "persuade" another fifty times).

....the world Oblivion features is the most non-linear, immersive, roleplaying haven of a gameworld ever created, EVER, PERIOD. That's what this game does that no other game in history has done.....

First, it's probably (we'll see) no more non-linear than Morrowind. Morrowind allows you to go anywhere and do anything, but there is extremely little non-linear story / plot. Choices largely have no consequence.
Second, you no more know that it's going to be so wonderful than anyone else knows it'll be crap. Morrowind had an expansive game world - so will Oblivion. Big deal - it's what you can do in it that counts, or else the construction of such a wonderous world has been an enormous waste of effort.

Oblivion's game world and versatile exploration give it a lot of potential. Most of that potential in Morrowind was wasted. The same looks to be true of Oblivion. An expansive, diverse game world is so much more important in an RPG than in an FPS / Action game. Why not make an RPG in that world?

 

[Chefe]

I think I need to explain things in a manner that funkbutter can understand.

Convinced yet? Yea, I knew I could persuade you. I'm awesome at tetris.

 

[funkbutter]

Calling graphics and physics a gimmick is a little extreme. I understand that it doesn't make immersion, but it definitely doesn't break it.

The RAI though? I doubt that it will come close to being gimicky, why? It eliminates the mindless clone NPC factor. At least, I THINK It will, as everything we are all saying is speculation.

"GOOD dialogue - that's immersion.
MEANINGFUL choices - that's immersion.
DECISIVE consequences - that's immersion."

/AGREE

Morrowind's NPC's were shitty, lackluster, mindless retards. Yes. Were there meaningfull choices? Decisive consequences? That's a matter of opinion. My opinion is: These factors weren't as prominent in morrowind as they were in other games.

Why do I think these three aspects will be present in Oblivion? I trust the devs. They cut down on the # of joinable factions and said they did so becuase they wanted to focus on making the quest lines of the existing factions more immersive. In Morrowind being the master of the Mage's guild ment jack shit, all it ment was that the mindless NPC's random comment they made when I passed them MAY OR MAY NOT MENTION ME BEING GM OF MAGES GUILD, and was generally a little nicer than GO AWAY N'WAH.

I was just defending against what I thought was Bryce777's attempt at calling Ob "Mainstream" and by that I mean dumbed down, arcade-esque crapola like fable.

Let me reiterate, I understand that the good graphics and physics system ARE NOT WHAT MAKE IMMERSION, I just said that they, along with the more realistic combat system, add to it and saying that they make this game dumbed down is silly.

I still think that RAI is gonna be great, and is revolutionary. But then again, when we actually PLAY IT, I may be proven wrong and it may be, just like you say, a gimmick. We'll wait and see

And people please, stop telling me I'm stupid and need to use the search function. So far whitemithrandir is the only person to present a valid argument, and he took the time to type out what? 10 more words telling me what an example of a good RPG would be. Why doesn't BRYCE777 do the same? It'd make him look less like someone trying to sound smarter than he is by using bigger words and vague/ambiguous statements and more like someone who actually has something real to say.

 

[Perishiko]

Re: Pfft.

So you think playing tetris with someone's CGI face is immersion? What the fuck are you smoking? Skill checks, at least, aren't gimmicky; they're pretty honest for what they are: the translation of the abilities of your character to the action s/he is performing. Straightforward, simple, MAKES SENSE. Adding a sort of minigame seems superflous, gimmicky, and absolutely UN-FUCKING-NECCESSARY.
IMMERSION? LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT IMMERSION, SON:

GOOD dialogue - that's immersion.
MEANINGFUL choices - that's immersion.
DECISIVE consequences - that's immersion.

Good graphics? Gimmick.
Some smart scripting? Gimmick.
Newtonian arrow flight? Gimmick.

Until I see solid evidence of the former, I haven't SEEN ANYTHING conclusive about how immersive the game will be.




: ...

Skill checks are a boring thing of the past, the movement has arrived. (Could it be sarcasm? I don't know, but I figured I'd hint at it for the others that don't understand.)

You know what, i agree with it being un-neccessary, but who gives a shit about "admiring, joking, ect" in this game?

Even without the "mini-game" that system sucks in a "roleplaying" sense. The way it's been it just adds or subtracts from their "liking you". But, in no way allows me to be evil, devious, good, ect... It's not a part of roleplaying at all, so why not just not use it?


And about "immersion", personaly i think it's a persons prefference.

A younger kid will find pretty gaphics to be more immersive then reading an awesome part of the plot... Pardon my stereotyping.

As you get older, graphics become less and less important, but can still play a factor. I dislike seeing little square blocks in this day and age. It just looks too horrible to stand.

We don't know if it will have good dialogue yet, so there's no evidence either way, good or bad.

And "smart scripting" is much more then a "gimmick." Npc's that just stand in one spot, or walk back and forth is more then useless, they more then not have no life, story, or meaning. I have to wholeheartedly dissagree with this as well.

 

[Jason]

Offtopic because I hate you all:
The Silver Jews are touring soon for the first time ever. Check your local listings.

 

[funkbutter]

I think I need to explain things in a manner that funkbutter can understand.

Convinced yet? Yea, I knew I could persuade you. I'm awesome at tetris.

Again, new here, don't get the tetris joke.. Or maybe I'm dumber than I give myself credit for =(.

On the persuasian system involving dialogue, I think you're right. I also think Morrowinds was stupid. Again though, I didn't really know what Bryce777 thought a good persuasion system would be so I based it on the one from Morrowind and from other RPG's I've played.

I forgot how it was in the Baldur's Gate Series.

It seems to me like people here would like to see something like that in place, where you chose from a list of possible things to say to the NPC, and the dialogue tree progresses from there. I liked that about those old D&D games. But, again, as with NPC dialogue I think/hope Ob will improve on morrowind. But, we already know that the system where you chose froma list of things to say won't be present =(.

 

[whitemithrandir]

Why do I think these three aspects will be present in Oblivion? I trust the devs. They cut down on the # of joinable factions and said they did so becuase they wanted to focus on making the quest lines of the existing factions more immersive. In Morrowind being the master of the Mage's guild ment jack shit, all it ment was that the mindless NPC's random comment they made when I passed them MAY OR MAY NOT MENTION ME BEING GM OF MAGES GUILD, and was generally a little nicer than GO AWAY N'WAH.

Funny how you criticize Bryce for criticizing the game before it's released, but you put your trust in the developers of MORROWIND?

WTF?

I was just defending against what I thought was Bryce777's attempt at calling Ob "Mainstream" and by that I mean dumbed down, arcade-esque crapola like fable.

Let me reiterate, I understand that the good graphics and physics system ARE NOT WHAT MAKE IMMERSION, I just said that they, along with the more realistic combat system, add to it and saying that they make this game dumbed down is silly.

This game IS being dumbed down. Want evidence? Get ready:

1. LESS skills.
2. LESS weapons. (No crossbow, spears wtf?)
3. Quest Compass that's NOT turn-offable (wtf?)
4. LESS freedom (unkillable primary NPC's)

etc, etc.

I still think that RAI is gonna be great, and is revolutionary. But then again, when we actually PLAY IT, I may be proven wrong and it may be, just like you say, a gimmick. We'll wait and see

You seem to have a lot of faith in a bunch of people who are known to produce souless games in the past (Morrowind).

 

[Perishiko]

This game IS being dumbed down. Want evidence? Get ready:

1. LESS skills.
2. LESS weapons. (No crossbow, spears wtf?)
3. Quest Compass that's NOT turn-offable (wtf?)
4. LESS freedom (unkillable primary NPC's)

etc, etc.

Less skills/weapons is "dumbing down" a game? What the hell are you thinking? Having less skills does not make a game "easier" to play in the least bit, this is more along the lines of making the game have less. Not "dumbing it down".


Quest compass... i have to agree, this is shit.
Unkillable primary NPC's... i have to agree with this as well, this is shit.

 

[bryce777]

Thanks for identifying yourself candidly, at least.

Excuse me, good sir, but i wasn't referring to you.

AH. Sorry, me eyes are tired after a long day. I thought it was ironic coming from him. Carry on.

 

[bryce777]

Re: Pfft.

Me? Fanboy?

Rofl.

Rofl.

Rofl.

Elderscrolls is so far from being my favorite series it's not even funny. Despite the fact that I WoW has more bad qualities than you can shake a stick at, I still like it more than single player games.

PvP > Single player or PvE all day, every day, any day.

Funny, I'm pretty sure Oblivion doesn't have any PvP, but I'll still defend it against people like BRYCE777 who make themselves out to be highclass by talking about scotch and how Ob is mainstream. Oh, and BTW, the fact that the game Fable even exists proves the title of this thread way wrong.

R00fles, ok you are just a passing stranger with a serious brain disorder, then.

 

[funkbutter]

"Funny how you criticize Bryce for criticizing the game before it's released, but you put your trust in the developers of MORROWIND? "

These two things are unrelated.

I disagreed with the removal of skills. But seriously.. Oh no they grouped short blade with long blade?! So what? Why does that make the game dumber? Medium armor got mixed into heavy armor? Same thing... doesn't make it dumber.

Less weapons? Doesn't bother me... Crossbows in Morrowind were shitty anyway. This COULD be constrewed as dumbing down, so I'll concede this one.

Quest compass: Well, being that not many other games have something similar to this (Guildwars, Ugh) I don't know how it will affect things. But mentioning this adds credit to the game itself in that it's the only game I can think of that is so open ended that you might need something like this. Baldurs gate games were extremely open ended for that genre of game but there was absolutely no need for a quest compass. Besides, this is a LOT better than having a big EXCLAMATION MARK over a glowing quest NPC. Although, this could also be constrewed as dumbing down because it makes the game easier for preteens and stupid people.

Unkillable primary NPCs: Meh, doesn't bother me. Could you kill them in the three games you mentioned? If so, why would you want to? I doubt anyone would do it, as you'd be living in a static world with no chance of progression? Would knowing that you COULD do it if you REALLY wanted to make you sleep better?

It's not like I think of Todd Howard as a deity... I know he botched Morrowind, but it seems like they've learned from their mistakes.

 

[whitemithrandir]

Less skills/weapons is "dumbing down" a game? What the hell are you thinking? Having less skills does not make a game "easier" to play in the least bit, this is more along the lines of making the game have less. Not "dumbing it down".


Quest compass... i have to agree, this is shit.
Unkillable primary NPC's... i have to agree with this as well, this is shit.

Dumbing down doesn't mean "Easier". It means "less complicated; less choices on what to do".

Less skills = less decision making
Less weapons = less decision making.