Obsidian General Discussion Thread

[IHaveHugeNick]

I said poor management should bring the company down at some point

And Obsidian is still around, so by your own logic they don't have poor management, and yet you keep saying they do have poor management.

The concept of poor management keeps changing in your hands, entirely based on your feelings. You're butthurt about Avellone leaving, so Feargus is poor manager. You're not butthurt about CDP so they have good management. What are you, twelve?

They're much more successful than Obsidian

They've had all the market advantages - a publishing business as a foundation, low barrier of entry, potato wages, and ability to have their own IP.

I wonder how they would do if they had to start in volatile and ultra-competive Western market that Feargus had to deal with for 20 years.

 

[Keppo]

CDPR doesnt have problem with the higher managment, me thinks; Iwinski, Kicinski etc, in long run they know how to run a business and make it successful with CDPR and GOG, DRM free push, good PR + they are not managing games, they are not Project Managers, Producers etc... Also they started from scratch in Poland 90', not easy task. The thing with CDPR has problem it is feature creep in production. Witcher 3 was much smaller on paper when they established general vision, in production they keep changing, adding some weird stuff, they created much bigger world than they wanted initially, they added Oxenfurt, they expanded the size of Novigrad, they created boats, swimming, under water exploration etc... And then we had 7 months delay.... Games should be prepared in pre-production with strong and detailed design documentation about every aspect of the game, game developers should create milestones and internal release date, and when production kick in every game studio should stick to that and follow closely design documentation. Then the games would be much more focused design wise with arms and legs.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Also they started from scratch in Poland 90', not easy task.

I think you got that backwards. Starting in Poland was a cakewalk, compared to starting in well established US market, with existing massive corporations controlling everyone and everything.

I don't think people realize just how amazingly lucky deal CDPR landed with the Witcher franchise. Sapowski is a great writer, but otherwise he's an absolute moron, and he sold the rights for a flat fee with no royalties. Comparable situation in the US market would be if Obsidian landed Tolkien or Marvel rights with no royalties. Shit like that just doesn't happen. Feargus had to deal with Hasbro, Lucas Arts, Bethesda, huge corporations known to be anal about their IPs. CDP bought rights from an old drunk for a sack of potatos.

 

[Luckmann]

CDPR doesnt have problem with the higher managment, me thinks; Iwinski, Kicinski etc, in long run they know how to run a business and make it successful with CDPR and GOG, DRM free push, good PR + they are not managing games, they are not Project Managers, Producers etc... Also they started from scratch in Poland 90', not easy task. The thing with CDPR has problem it is feature creep in production. Witcher 3 was much smaller on paper when they established general vision, in production they keep changing, adding some weird stuff, they created much bigger world than they wanted initially, they added Oxenfurt, they expanded the size of Novigrad, they created boats, swimming, under water exploration etc... And then we had 7 months delay.... Games should be prepared in pre-production with strong and detailed design documentation about every aspect of the game, game developers should create milestones and internal release date, and when production kick in every game studio should stick to that and follow closely design documentation. Then the games would be much more focused design wise with arms and legs.

I dunno, what you describe sounds like the opposite of a problem. Having small plans and then expand upon them as you go - successfully, mind you - is by far preferably to having grandiose dreams and schemes and pitches, just to come up short and then proceed to try to keep it a secret, while the development team is stressed to the limit and only seeing failures and cuts. What you describe, a solid pre-production, is something they likely had, but it was realistic and they knew that they could do it, and then proceeded to expand upon that after reaching milestones in advance, finding that they had extra time or extra assets (such as being capable of hiring more people, or jumps in technology, or expanding the time-schedule). This, in turn, feeds into the human psychology of success, whereas cutting into shit feeds into the human psychology of failure.

You can have different ideas about the quality of The Witcher 3, but no-one can realistically argue that the final design wasn't focused or that it didn't have arms and legs. You know what's unfocused and has had it's arms and legs hacked off? Tons of projects that have overreached and had a solid pre-production that turned out to be unrealistic. A 7-month delay is nothing, in that context, especially if your company is already successful and beholden to absolutely no-one.

 

[Roguey]

Scope/feature creep is bad and given what's said on Glassdoor, CD Projekt runs their business like a morale-crushing slave shop.

 

[LESS T_T]

Boyarsky's SINFO talk:

Leonard Boyarsky - A Life in Video Games

Description: In a video game career spanning almost a quarter of a century, Leonard Boyarsky has done just about everything but code. In this talk, he will be discussing his long and varied career. Topics covered will include: how he got into the industry, becoming one of the original creators of the Fallout universe, founding his own company, working on Diablo 3, why he decided to return to making deep Role Playing Games as a Creative Director at Obsidian Entertainment, and some of the technical challenges of bygone days.

Start: 2017-02-23 14:00:00+00:00
End: 2017-02-23 15:15:00+00:00

 

[Luckmann]

Scope/feature creep is bad and given what's said on Glassdoor, CD Projekt runs their business like a morale-crushing slave shop.

Well I guess that's a heavy blow for the common humanitarianist doctrine that slaves make poor workers.

 

[Fairfax]

I said poor management should bring the company down at some point

And Obsidian is still around, so by your own logic they don't have poor management, and yet you keep saying they do have poor management.

The concept of poor management keeps changing in your hands, entirely based on your feelings. You're butthurt about Avellone leaving, so Feargus is poor manager. You're not butthurt about CDP so they have good management. What are you, twelve?

I said "should bring the company", as in CDPR, not "a company". Cyberpunk and The Witcher projects are expensive and ambitious enough that poor management would be disastrous. Poor management doesn't necessarily lead every studio to bankruptcy, at least not right away. It's why Tim Schafer and Double Fine are still around. Speaking of which, DF's KS is the only reason Obsidian itself didn't go bankrupt.

Also, I never said CDPR has good management. I said they're one of the most successful, and they are. I said they could have poor management as you claim, but it's not because of shitty working conditions, which applies to almost every big studio out there. You keep reading what you want to read, yet you claim I'm the one twisting things because of an agenda.

They've had all the market advantages - a publishing business as a foundation, low barrier of entry, potato wages, and ability to have their own IP.

I wonder how they would do if they had to start in volatile and ultra-competive Western market that Feargus had to deal with for 20 years.

Obsidian being more attractive is an advantage for them, and they always had better opportunities and better talent available.

Obsidian had Star Wars, an amazing opportunity to make their mark as their first project, but Feargus blew it with a verbal agreement that got them shafted.
Obsidian and CDPR both made a licensed fantasy RPG around the same time, using the same engine and published by the same company (NWN2 x TW1). How did each series turn out for them? The guy Feargus put in charge of the project bailed months before release, and the (mediocre) game cemented their Bugsdian reputation.
What about Alpha Protocol? By far the best opportunity they ever had. 4 years with a large team, blank slate for a new IP. Feargus put Chris Parker (who had 0 experience as a designer and hadn't worked on a game since BIS) in charge and it quickly fell in development hell. 2 years into the project and they had to go back to the drawing board and bring people in to save it.
In 2008-2011 they had the best RPG designers and writers in the industry by a long shot, and 4 great opportunities: Aliens, Dungeon Siege, Fallout and their own IP. They blew 3, and the only hit didn't make them any more money because of yet another bad deal.

I'll give him credit for getting these projects in the first place (except KOTOR2, which was thanks to the BioWare docs), but all of them were wasted opportunities, and none of these publishers gave them another project. Most of their best talent is gone, and the company is a shadow of its former self, which is why Tyranny was another failure.

 

[EnthalpyFlow]

What was that verbal agreement, Fairfax?

Edit: Thanks, ESh.

 

[Flou]

In 2008-2011 they had the best RPG designers and writers in the industry by a long shot, and 4 great opportunities: Aliens, Dungeon Siege, Fallout and their own IP. They blew 3, and the only hit didn't make them any more money because of yet another bad deal.

What you call a bad deal is business as usual in the gaming business. You either take it, or leave it. Hardly any developer these days can dictate the terms.
How exactly did they blew Dungeon Siege? It made profit, it wasn't buggy and it almost landed them the gig to do Deus Ex. Had Thi4f sold enough, they would have done that for Square.

 

[Keppo]

Scope/feature creep is bad and given what's said on Glassdoor, CD Projekt runs their business like a morale-crushing slave shop.

I dont think it is that bad actually. And these Glassdoor reviews are not good indication imho, glassdoor is pretty shit. If CDPR would be so bad place to work, huge amount of ppl would leave etc, and in fact some devs left CDPR for western devs, and then after some time they returned, their Cinematic Director left for the same position in Guerilla Games and then back after few months, one example. And from what i know even developers can change the scope if they invented something "cool", so their project managment is pretty light and i think devs have more freedom than in most other AAA studios, maybe thats why they have managment problems and maybe thats why production values of CDPR game is higher than other AAA games except Rockstar and few others. Also right now it is very hard to make big budget AAA game without crunch and alot of sacrifice for the project, thats why there are so many delays, and less and less AAA games. But still i think that developers should stick to design documentation from pre-production and stop feature creeping because it is problem. Games should focus on core things, iterate and then polish and stop feature creeping because games are unfocused mess with useless and unpolished stuff. My posts are chaotic cause my english is shit, germany in school.


Also what is the problem, if Obsidian would be very successful then they would start making big budget AAA games for mass market... At least right now they are making old school rpgs. For high quality AAA papamoles we have CDPR.

 

[Infinitron]

I know that internally, Obsidian consider Dungeon Siege 3 a success and one of the most important titles they've ever developed. It's "the game that turned us around". Not because of its content of course, but because of how they made it.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

I know that internally, Obsidian consider Dungeon Siege 3 a success and one of the most important titles they've ever developed. It's "the game that turned us around". Not because of its content of course, but because of how they made it.

Content wasn't completely bad though, thanks to Ziets.

 

[Pirata Alma Negra]

So the problem was with Feargus, and not with who didn't keep his/her word. Amazing viewpoint.

 

[2house2fly]

The person who said they'd get an extension on KOTOR2 got replaced by someone else. How did they not get it in writing anyway? Wouldn't it be a change to the contract?

 

[EnthalpyFlow]

I know that internally, Obsidian consider Dungeon Siege 3 a success and one of the most important titles they've ever developed. It's "the game that turned us around". Not because of its content of course, but because of how they made it.

Content wasn't completely bad though, thanks to Ziets.

I've heard only good things about Dungeon Siege 3, although the game genre doesn't cater to me that much.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

I know that internally, Obsidian consider Dungeon Siege 3 a success and one of the most important titles they've ever developed. It's "the game that turned us around". Not because of its content of course, but because of how they made it.

Content wasn't completely bad though, thanks to Ziets.

I've heard only good things about Dungeon Siege 3, although the game genre doesn't cater to me that much.

Ziets took a bad setting (Dungeon Siege) and a bad genre (click click action RPG) and managed to get a salvageable story out of it. Well worth playing. Just push on through the opening hours and you'll see what I mean - there's a good villain and some interesting factions in there.

I remember getting called out for trying to pull some sanctimonious bullshit on the main villain. I need to play it again because I really can't remember what happened after that. Might have let her go.

 

[EnthalpyFlow]

I know that internally, Obsidian consider Dungeon Siege 3 a success and one of the most important titles they've ever developed. It's "the game that turned us around". Not because of its content of course, but because of how they made it.

Content wasn't completely bad though, thanks to Ziets.

I've heard only good things about Dungeon Siege 3, although the game genre doesn't cater to me that much.

Ziets took a bad setting (Dungeon Siege) and a bad genre (click click action RPG) and managed to get a salvageable story out of it. Well worth playing. Just push on through the opening hours and you'll see what I mean - there's a good villain and some interest factions in there.

Only the third game? I don't need to play neither one of its predecesors, is that right?

 

[Deleted member 7219]

I know that internally, Obsidian consider Dungeon Siege 3 a success and one of the most important titles they've ever developed. It's "the game that turned us around". Not because of its content of course, but because of how they made it.

Content wasn't completely bad though, thanks to Ziets.

I've heard only good things about Dungeon Siege 3, although the game genre doesn't cater to me that much.

Ziets took a bad setting (Dungeon Siege) and a bad genre (click click action RPG) and managed to get a salvageable story out of it. Well worth playing. Just push on through the opening hours and you'll see what I mean - there's a good villain and some interest factions in there.

Only the third game? I don't need to play neither one of its predecesors, is that right?

That is absolutely correct.

 

[2house2fly]

It's got less owners on steam than Pillars Of Eternity does, so unless it sold like hotcakes on consoles it was probably a dismal failure.

 

[Rev]

Come on, Dungeon Siege III is the definition of a mediocre game. Ziets could've made a good story but he was held back by Square Enix, and gameplay and area design were just bad. I stopped playing it after two hours, and I finished NWN2 even with its shitty gameplay and camera.
Also, it probably made a profit but nothing huge that could makee SE want to make another one.

 

[Roguey]

a bad genre (click click action RPG)

It's not that. It's a brawler/beat 'em up.

It's got less owners on steam than Pillars Of Eternity does, so unless it sold like hotcakes on consoles it was probably a dismal failure.

In 2011 it sold 820,000 across all platforms. However, that was enough for it to be profitable because it had a budget comparable to Pillars of Eternity.

 

[Flou]

It's got less owners on steam than Pillars Of Eternity does, so unless it sold like hotcakes on consoles it was probably a dismal failure.

By now it has sold over million copies. Even in 2011 it was profitable with 820k copies sold over multiple platforms, unless Square spent gazillion dollars to market it which I highly doubt they did when the budget for the game wasn't huge to begin with.

Not to mention the game sold enough to get a DLC + a chance for Obsidian to work on Deus Ex sequel. Clearly a dismal failure...

 

[Rev]

By now it has sold over million copies. Even in 2011 it was profitable with 820k copies sold over multiple platforms, unless Square spent gazillion dollars to market it which I highly doubt they did when the budget for the game wasn't huge to begin with.

Not to mention the game sold enough to get a DLC + a chance for Obsidian to work on Deus Ex sequel. Clearly a dismal failure...

It wasn't a dismal failure, but SE surely had higher expectations. They tried to resurrect the IP and turn it into a hit, it clearly didn't go that well and in fact they never wanted to make another Dungeon Siege after it.
Also, besides the not-exactly-great sales it wasn't praised by neither the press or the gamers that tried it, and it's usually regarded as Obsidian's worst game or at the very least among their worst titles.

 

[Fairfax]

The person who said they'd get an extension on KOTOR2 got replaced by someone else. How did they not get it in writing anyway? Wouldn't it be a change to the contract?

Should've been a change to the contract. In the recent IGN interview, Feargus advised people to "try and get these things in writing", but admitted he sometimes doesn't follow his own advice.

By now it has sold over million copies. Even in 2011 it was profitable with 820k copies sold over multiple platforms, unless Square spent gazillion dollars to market it which I highly doubt they did when the budget for the game wasn't huge to begin with.

Not to mention the game sold enough to get a DLC + a chance for Obsidian to work on Deus Ex sequel. Clearly a dismal failure...

It wasn't a dismal failure, but SE surely had higher expectations. They tried to resurrect the IP and turn it into a hit, it clearly didn't go that well and in fact they never wanted to make another Dungeon Siege after it.
Also, besides the not-exactly-great sales it wasn't praised by neither the press or the gamers that tried it, and it's usually regarded as Obsidian's worst game or at the very least among their worst titles.

It's at 61% on Steam, by far the lowest for an Obsidian game. They managed to alienate the Dungeon Siege fans without gaining any new ones. And it's not like SE is afraid to milk successful franchises. Had it been considered a success, we would've seen another one.
The best thing to come out of it was probably Obsidian's engine, but Feargus killed its development afterwards and it was never used again.