Obsidian...what happened?

[rusty_shackleford]

Spoiler

Rate this post negatively if you're a homosexual.

 

[TheGameSquid]

Older writers were informed by novels, cinema, history, life experience, etc and came up with something new and fresh rather than only relying on established genre tropes.

Are you suggesting that novels and cinema, etc. are not full of genre tropes? I'm pretty confident that most of the ideas the first video game authors came up with were already firmly established as genre tropes in books, film and culture before they started developing video games. Have a look at games like Ultima and Might and Magic. Those games were basically the authors' ode to nerd culture.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

99% of books and films are just as terribly written as 99% of video games, the only difference is that some of those video games have other features that save it from poor writing

 

[TheGameSquid]

99% of books and films are just as terribly written as 99% of video games, the only difference is that some of those video games have other features that save it from poor writing

Depends on how you look at it. On the surface level, that seems like a sensible statement, but I'm not sure that it is correct. I've read tons of great novels that contains excellent prose and have watched countless movies with interesting dialogues, but I can only think of two games that are genuinely well written (maybe more if I sit down and really think about it). All mediums have their trashy underbelly, but I think it's hard to argue that video games have just as much well-written games as there are well-written books and movies.

I obviously agree that games have much more to offer and I encourage all games to stop replicating storytelling mechanics from Hollywood movies.

A game with bad storytelling is not the worst thing in the world honestly. What ruins the experience is when you're constantly forced to slog through that bad storytelling or when that storytelling is constantly forced upon you. So many games just have shitty storytelling with no effort but still include it "because that's what's expected". If you don't have anything interesting to say, don't bother me with it. Just let me play your game instead.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

99% of books and films are just as terribly written as 99% of video games, the only difference is that some of those video games have other features that save it from poor writing

Depends on how you look at it. On the surface level, that seems like a sensible statement, but I'm not sure that it is correct. I've read tons of great novels that contains excellent prose and have watched countless movies with interesting dialogues, but I can only think of two games that are genuinely well written (maybe more if I sit down and really think about it). All mediums have their trashy underbelly, but I think it's hard to argue that video games have just as much well-written games as there are well-written books and movies.

I obviously agree that games have much more to offer and I encourage all games to stop replicating storytelling mechanics from Hollywood movies.

A game with bad storytelling is not the worst thing in the world honestly. What ruins the experience is when you're constantly forced to slog through that bad storytelling or when that storytelling is constantly forced upon you. So many games just have shitty storytelling with no effort but still include it "because that's what's expected". If you don't have anything interesting to say, don't bother me with it. Just let me play your game instead.

Video games with actual writers didn't even start appearing until the late 90s sans a few outliers. You can't compare the raw number of well written films/books to the raw number of well written video games.

 

[TheGameSquid]

Fair enough.

 

[Zer0wing]

At first I thought the same, what happened to Obsidian? Is it the problem with people who took the place of Avellone, Gonzales, Ziets, Fenstermaker, Mitsoda? Or not, who's out of the old guard™ still employed? Josh Sawyer, Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky. They're still there because pensions are leftist bullshit and forbidden in US. Those who left and those who are still working at Obs. Ent. are hasbeen boomer BBQ party, working as team leads for liberal arts and gender studies graduates, because apparently they are more complaisant I guess?..
It's not just Obs' games that have become decline, modern games were touched by Avellone and Mitsoda aren't exactly spectacular either. I think they all need a rest from game industry and we need new heroes, like Vault Dweller or MRY .

 

[rusty_shackleford]

modern games were touched by Avellone and Mitsoda aren't exactly spectacular either.

Going to disagree here, Avellone is probably one of the few people I think didn't see a huge decline in the quality of his work.

 

[TemplarGR]

Writing is overrated. This retardation with the writing only exists in niche places like tha RPGCodex. Writing is only 0.5%-1% of a video game. I really don't understand why the spergs here focus so much into that. Is it the fluoride into murican water?

 

[Zer0wing]

Going to disagree here, Avellone is probably one of the few people I think didn't see a huge decline in the quality of his work.

I expected to see John Gonzales' name in place of Avellone one, to be honest. Because John came p. late in development of Horizon: Zero Dawn so I don't know if it's fair to judge writing in this Witcher 3 knock-off (I can't because I haven't played it yet)...

The only one game that has Avellone's involvement I loved alot was Pathfinder: Kingmaker, which already has strong core of veterans of game industry, passionate, knowing their shit and not plauged by pozzed ideologies and tiredness of working. Now let's see what Avellone has been cooking in the mean time...
Jedi Fallen Order - shit writing with predictable plot
DivOs 2 - ok, the undeads weren't bad. Close but no cigar, it's a Larian game through and through
Prey - full of plot holes, teen angst and hate for human species and inappropriate spoilers

 

[rusty_shackleford]

This retardation with the writing only exists in niche places like tha RPGCodex

Probably because it's one of the few video game genres with an emphasis put on the writing?

 

[Butter]

Writing is overrated. This retardation with the writing only exists in niche places like tha RPGCodex. Writing is only 0.5%-1% of a video game. I really don't understand why the spergs here focus so much into that. Is it the fluoride into murican water?

Translation: I play a lot of walking simulators and actively avoid the content.

 

[TemplarGR]

Probably because it's one of the few video game genres with an emphasis put on the writing?

The emphasis is on gameplay, like in every genre. The emphasis on writing is only for visual novels and books. If the game does not have good gameplay, you can take the writing and throw it into the trashbin. Like your favourite numanuma, no one wanted to play that shit. Same as planescape, a video game that no one really gives a fuck about outside the codex, the vast majority of people don't even know it exists. Everyone knows Skyrim though.

Translation: I play a lot of walking simulators and actively avoid the content.

No, the real translation is that i am a gamer, not a b-rate fantasy novel reader.

 

[Sigourn]

The problem with Obsidian is that it tackled cRPGs (I'm talking Pillars and on) with a completely different mindset than what these games require, i.e. obsessive balance and inappropiate writing that hits too close to present. Regarding The Outer Worlds, it's a 2019 game that feels like a 2010 game that was old back in 2008. And, from what I've seen, it wasn't as bold as New Vegas was. Reading people's comments about the game, I take it that TOW simply wasn't a memorable game. It's nothing special.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

There needs to be a greater literature movement before writing can truly ascend in gaming and RPGs in particular. You see, many people that creatively write these days are intensely shit at it but they can easily trick lesser minds into thinking they're reading something very profound or deep or erudite. It'll be weird phrasing, thesaurus scoured wordplay, flat and predictable characters or plots that have nonsensical twists in an attempt to subvert the reader, and so on. A lot of young people that go into writing are like this and women in particular are very prominent when it comes to retardedly flowery prose. It is the worst thing to read because you tend to zone out and lose all interest.

We're in the phase where most professors in colleges or universities are nice guys and don't have the heart to tell someone their writing and stories are godawful. Because that is "stifling" their imagination or something, or they'll say how it's all art at the end of the day. There's no firmness and while that leads to hundreds of starving wannabe authors, it also means you get hundreds of them applying for things like RPG writing and why they never shook those bad habits while bringing them (and their social/political views) along for one terrible ride.

 

[Zer0wing]

There needs to be a greater literature movement before writing can truly ascend in gaming and RPGs in particular. You see, many people that creatively write these days are intensely shit at it but they can easily trick lesser minds into thinking they're reading something very profound or deep or erudite. It'll be weird phrasing, thesaurus scoured wordplay, flat and predictable characters or plots that have nonsensical twists in an attempt to subvert the reader, and so on. A lot of young people that go into writing are like this and women in particular are very prominent when it comes to retardedly flowery prose. It is the worst thing to read because you tend to zone out and lose all interest.

We're in the phase where most professors in colleges or universities are nice guys and don't have the heart to tell someone their writing and stories are godawful. Because that is "stifling" their imagination or something, or they'll say how it's all art at the end of the day. There's no firmness and while that leads to hundreds of starving wannabe authors, it also means you get hundreds of them applying for things like RPG writing and why they never shook those bad habits while bringing them (and their social/political views) along for one terrible ride.

This applies to a different more complex topic - the whole horrible state of RPG writing of today.

 

[Tigranes]

Nobody was really taught to write before postmodernism or whatever either. But arguably we get a lot more bad writing to become a lot more visible and a lot more people with the confidence to believe their writing is worth reading - re. internet and other changes.

E.g. 300 years ago most of the people on this very forum would not have any outlet to write our opinions for others to read.

 

[Sigourn]

This applies to a different more complex topic - the whole horrible state of RPG writing of today.

IMO the big problem is that the "creative" elements of a setting are, generally speaking, left off-screen. The reason I like Fallout is that the lore of the games was pretty simple and mostly seen in the games, instead of heard of from NPCs. e.g. instead of hearing about two-headed cows with a brownish color, you see the damn Brahmin. And that's it, a picture says more than a thousand words, and it certainly is more memorable than anything I've ever read in a TES in-game book.

 

[Sweeper]

The emphasis is on gameplay, like in every genre. The emphasis on writing is only for visual novels and books. If the game does not have good gameplay, you can take the writing and throw it into the trashbin. Like your favourite numanuma, no one wanted to play that shit. Same as planescape, a video game that no one really gives a fuck about outside the codex, the vast majority of people don't even know it exists. Everyone knows Skyrim though.



No, the real translation is that i am a gamer, not a b-rate fantasy novel reader.

I find it troubling that I unironically agree with TemplarGR.
Would have cited Underrail instead of Skyrim though.

 

[alyvain]

IMO the big problem is that the "creative" elements of a setting are, generally speaking, left off-screen. The reason I like Fallout is that the lore of the games was pretty simple and mostly seen in the games, instead of heard of from NPCs. e.g. instead of hearing about two-headed cows with a brownish color, you see the damn Brahmin. And that's it, a picture says more than a thousand words, and it certainly is more memorable than anything I've ever read in a TES in-game book.

It was always so strange that the world described in the TES books was so much weirder than the stuff we actually see on the screen. It was even true to Morrowind, although to a lesser extent

 

[turkishronin]

Writing is overrated. This retardation with the writing only exists in niche places like tha RPGCodex. Writing is only 0.5%-1% of a video game. I really don't understand why the spergs here focus so much into that. Is it the fluoride into murican water?

storyfaggots ruin everything they touch

 

[Ensi]

There needs to be a greater literature movement before writing can truly ascend in gaming and RPGs in particular. You see, many people that creatively write these days are intensely shit at it but they can easily trick lesser minds into thinking they're reading something very profound or deep or erudite. It'll be weird phrasing, thesaurus scoured wordplay, flat and predictable characters or plots that have nonsensical twists in an attempt to subvert the reader, and so on. A lot of young people that go into writing are like this and women in particular are very prominent when it comes to retardedly flowery prose. It is the worst thing to read because you tend to zone out and lose all interest.

We're in the phase where most professors in colleges or universities are nice guys and don't have the heart to tell someone their writing and stories are godawful. Because that is "stifling" their imagination or something, or they'll say how it's all art at the end of the day. There's no firmness and while that leads to hundreds of starving wannabe authors, it also means you get hundreds of them applying for things like RPG writing and why they never shook those bad habits while bringing them (and their social/political views) along for one terrible ride.

Having multiple friends who went through creative writing programs (I did English/Psych), that's not true at all, at least not monolithically. From what I've heard creative writing workshops can still be pretty brutal. Probably more accurate to blame fanfic communities.

I love good writing in games but yeah people rely too much on flowery prose, as if that's the hallmark of good writing. Anyone who's read actually good literature knows that you have to have an INSANE handle on language use before you can do it well. In modern speculative fiction people like Gene Wolfe, China Mieville, Jeff VanderMeer etc do it well, but they know what they're doing.

 

[TemplarGR]

Reading people's comments about the game, I take it that TOW simply wasn't a memorable game. It's nothing special.

Yet another game you express your opinion on, without having played it. It is not the first time you retard are doing that. Have you ever wondered if the people who comment on the game have actually played the game themselves before commenting on it and you copy-pasting their comments? Or perhaps they did like it but are too butthurt edgelords and call everything shit and always complain?

This retardation is too extreme, for fuck sake. Idiots like this are the reason the world is going to shit, monkeys just copying other monkeys opinions without first hand knowledge. PLAY THE DAMN GAME YOU FAGGOT AND FORM YOUR OWN OPINION!

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

I will have to take peoples word that KoTOR2 or whatever is a good game, I just can't get into any stars wars shit at all.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Some good people left and those remain learned from their past "mistakes" and try to do all the "safe" things.
I think I died a little inside when I read Sawyer boasting about how he shuts down ideas from young people whenever he thinks it would be cumbersome to implement. "You like Beyond the Beef? But you see that kind of quest is too much effort, I am too fucking experienced now to make that mistake again LOL."

Sounds like Josh still has some PTSD from the Icewind Dale II dev cycle.

That was the last good thing he made that I am aware of, maybe Fallout NV if you are into 3D fallout, but I just could not get into it much, but I will give that to him I guess.