Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[FeelTheRads]

Delterius:
Read the last post on the previous page about the difficulty of IE games and my issue with "streamlining".

 

[jdinatale]

If you need ridiculous amounts of time to understand thac0, you're a retard and good riddance.

ive spent twenty years studying maths. if you need ridiculous amounts of time to understand differential forms, you're a retard and good riddance

hint: a concept is only easy to understand if you have prior exposure to similar concepts. if you have not played an RPG before, the 2e rulebooks may as well be written in hieroglyphs

I saw differential forms in differential geometry as a 3rd year undergraduate. That's not exactly the best example to use of a complicated mathematical concept.

 

[Grunker]

Its not even needlessly complex..

How is "let's take the EXACT same concept as a addition to reach a target and turn it into a table-defined subtraction instead" NOT needlessly complicated? Jesus christ, what is this?

I agree that the IE-games weren't hard (I beat them at a retarded age of 12 where I didn't understand English) and I agree that THAC0 isn't "omg teh complex" but any claim that it isn't fucking contrived compare to its goal is just straight up motherfucking BULLSHIT.

 

[FeelTheRads]

but any claim that it isn't fucking contrived compare to its goal is just straight up motherfucking BULLSHIT.

I don't even know who you're arguing with. If anything, I defended it exactly because it's overly complicated.

 

[Delterius]

Its not even needlessly complex..

How is "let's take the EXACT same concept as a addition to reach a target and turn it into a table-defined subtraction instead" NOT needlessly complicated? Jesus christ, what is this?

Calling it complex, I think, is just giving it too much credit. THAC0 isn't as much complex as it is simply stupid. A genius simplifies things. An intellectual complexifies them. An idiot just throws random shit at the wall and accepts whatever sticks. I was looking for the better word for it and you used it -- THAC0 is contrived.

Delterius:
Read the last post on the previous page about the difficulty of IE games and my issue with "streamlining".

I did. Its retarded.

 

[coffeetable]

I saw differential forms in differential geometry as a 3rd year undergraduate. That's not exactly the best example to use of a complicated mathematical concept.

congratulations! you completely missed the point.

i picked differential forms because they are easy if you have prior education in a pile of related topics. in fact, they even make problems you've learnt to solve before easier! if you haven't had that training though, for example if you're not a third year maths undergrad, then you haven't a snowball's chance of understanding them

 

[FeelTheRads]

I did. Its retarded.

Oh, OK, so streamlining just because everybody needs to get it is awesome. Please report to the nearest Bioware office.

 

[Lhynn]

I enjoy complexity, but no for complexity sake, i like hard to grasp concepts that give you full control over your own shit.

PS: everyone here agrees that Thac0 is unintuitive, most of us here find the concept still so retardedly simple that we dont give a shit. Grunker, you need to stop beating on the dead horse dude, we are in the 5th edition of this shit and you still rant about what happened over a quarter of a century ago.

 

[Grunker]

but any claim that it isn't fucking contrived compare to its goal is just straight up motherfucking BULLSHIT.

I don't even know who you're arguing with. If anything, I defended it exactly because it's overly complicated.

blind as well i see

Its not even needlessly complex..

I did. Its retarded.

Oh, OK, so streamlining just because everybody needs to get it is awesome. Please report to the nearest Bioware office.

itt we learn that feeltherads isn't against streamlining because it waters down good mechanics but literally because he likes contrived systems out of his own theory that it keeps away retards (proven by the that no retards play ad&d of course)

your argument is nonsense and you should feel embarrased.

 

[FeelTheRads]

i like hard to grasp concepts

Must mean you're an aspie. Well, if having fun with figuring out rules makes you one, I'll go and stick a piece of meat between my ass-cheeks.

 

[Grunker]

Its not even needlessly complex..

How is "let's take the EXACT same concept as a addition to reach a target and turn it into a table-defined subtraction instead" NOT needlessly complicated? Jesus christ, what is this?

Calling it complex, I think, is just giving it too much credit.

Overly complex = complex. Overly complex just means "more complex than it would need to be to do what it does." Which is exactly what THAC0 is. That it is contrived (i.e. the design method of throwing bottles of paint on the wall) is an issue in addition to the other.

 

[FeelTheRads]

blind as well i see

No u.

itt we learn that feeltherads isn't against streamlining because it waters down good mechanics

itt we learn Grunker likes streamlining just because it makes it easier for everybody. See how that works?

out of his own theory

It's more like Sawyer's theory, but one of the few theories of his that I agree with.

 

[Grunker]

i like hard to grasp concepts

Must mean you're an aspie. Well, if having fun with figuring out rules makes you one, I'll go and stick a piece of meat between my ass-cheeks.

itt we learn Grunker likes streamlining just because it makes it easier for everybody.

I must be fucking clairvoyant:

inb4 accusations of desiring simplification is thrown at the resident gurps fanboi

You are unable to think up any argument more refined than "complexity geeeeewwwd, durrr"

And if you are, if you really are, if you're just misunderstood and there really is an argument hiding in that thick skull of yours, then answer the fucking question: what makes THAC0 good out of virtue of being more complex than a similar mechanic doing exactly the same? What magical property lifts THAC0 up from being a better mechanic than the simple, additive BAB?

What about it being contrived is so fucking awesome you just had to jump in here telling us how we're retarded children? What makes it so refined it makes a GURPS-narcotic seem like he is addicted to BioWare streamlining according to you?

 

[FeelTheRads]

You have some issues bro. I think you're an aspie.

What about it being contrived is so fucking awesome you just had to jump in here telling us how we're retarded children?

Where the fuck did I say that?

1. Sawyer thinks thac0 and other stuff are hard to grasp
2. I think they're not
3. I think those who can't grasp them are retarded
4. You grasp them
5. You're not retarded
6. Are you?

what makes THAC0 good out of virtue of being more complex than a similar mechanic doing exactly the same.

What makes it bad if it's doing exactly the same?

 

[coffeetable]

1. Sawyer thinks thac0 and other stuff are hard to grasp
2. I think they're not
3. I think those who can't grasp them are retarded

Explain THAC0 to me without using any term specific to RPGs or gaming.

 

[Delterius]

Overly complex = complex. Overly complex just means "more complex than it would need to be to do what it does." Which is exactly what THAC0 is. That it is contrived (i.e. the design method of throwing bottles of paint on the wall) is an issue in addition to the other.

Internet discussions are so fun, aren't they? Its almost as if we don't really agree on THAC0 beyond the adjective nitpicking. Next in this very forum: people throw around their personal framing of what an RPG is without really disagreeing with one another.

Something can be more complex than it deserves to be without actually being complex by itself. A simple substraction framed in russian isn't Einstein's blackboard. And neither is THAC0 complex unto itself. Its just pointless busywork. Like asking someone to read russian for no reason at all.

 

[Grunker]

I don't care about Sawyer, FeelTheRads. I care about what you claimed to me. My claim is that something simple that does A is better than something less simple that does A. Why? Because simplicity has advantages (easy to understand, easier to assign other mechanics to, easier to modify, easier to use), where complexity (for its own sake) has none - as you've readily agree with.

If you honest-to-God straight up say to me "nono! needless complexity has NO disadvantages!" then you're obviously a retard, and that's the reason you've been dancing around the hot pudding for a while now. Your problem is that you got backed into a corner saying something dumb because you disagreed with Sawyer, and now you cling to it out of fear of having to admit that maybe you got it wrong and maybe the obvious truth of this statement:

something simple that does A is better than something less simple that does A.

shouldn't be challenged just because you're butthurt about Sawyer.

Note that I even fucking agreed with you that Sawyer is a stupid cunt when he says that "OMG, teh BG was teh hard" (yeah, if my retard-brain could defeat it at age 12, it must have been soooo tough huh), I just think that Sawyer is right at the core when he points out the retarded issues with AD&D. That system is the definition of contrived, complexity-for-complexity's sake bullshit. The developers even said as much themselves.

But fuck this discussion. I literally get fucking dumber by the second from arguing obvious fucking truths with obvious fucking stubborn cunts.

I may be an aspie (how ironic you call me one just after getting done being butthurt about being called one yourself), but you, sir, are an idiot.

 

[Grunker]

Overly complex = complex. Overly complex just means "more complex than it would need to be to do what it does." Which is exactly what THAC0 is. That it is contrived (i.e. the design method of throwing bottles of paint on the wall) is an issue in addition to the other.

Internet discussions are so fun, aren't they? Its almost as if we don't really agree on THAC0 beyond the adjective nitpicking.

I do think we agree. The entire point of that post was to clear that up, because it sounded to me like you thought we didn't.

However I can't decide whether coffeetable's "thac0 is hard" or feeltherads' "unecessary complexity is awesome!" is worst.

EDIT: Delterius, to your edit:

Something can be more complex than it deserves to be without actually being complex by itself.

that was my fucking point omg noob

 

[FeelTheRads]

1. Sawyer thinks thac0 and other stuff are hard to grasp
2. I think they're not
3. I think those who can't grasp them are retarded

Explain THAC0 to me without using any term specific to RPGs or gaming.

???

Why? Do the 2ED rulebooks start with thac0? If you get to where thac0 is explained you'll understand it.

But, why do we have to start from the premise that non-gamers HAVE to get it? Catering to them is what brings decline in the first place.

 

[Infinitron]

I realized pages ago that FeelTheRads is simply a misanthrope that wants needless complexity because it scares off the kind of people he dislikes. Not sure why this conversation is still ongoing.

 

[Grunker]

I realized a page ago that FeelTheRads is simply a misanthrope that wants needless complexity because it scares off the kind of people he dislikes.

Even if that was true, that theory was debunked several times during just the last two pages.

Not sure why this conversation is still ongoing.

For the exact same reason this thread is 1033 pages long. The people inhabiting this forum are aspie weirdos with nothing better to do.

 

[Lhynn]

im an aspie wierdo with nothing better to do

´k

 

[cherry blossom]

I think you two need to break down THAC0 and BAB down to mechanical expressions to make a healthy comparison between their complexity/practicality performance.

I don't think THAC0 is complex at all but if I were doing my own RPG with melee martial combat, I wouldn't give a flying fuck about how DND did anything before which includes THAC0 and just go my own way.

So then why does Sawyer keep referencing it as if it is the very foundation the entire world runs on while he could completely omit it and simply talk about BAB? Sounds to me like a very peculiar butthurt.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Explain THAC0 to me without using any term specific to RPGs or gaming.

It isn't hard to explain but every term you'd potentially use to do it would serve just fine in its stead (while being easier to understand), for example accuracy.

In short, Grunker has a point. Ideally, any sort of gaming system should be relatively easy to understand and transparent but hard to master.

 

[Delterius]

Why do people respond to idiots and trolls?

Its bigger than us. We can't do anything to stop ourselves.

I mean, Roguey still hasn't managed to be ignored by the whole forum.

omg noob