Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[ZagorTeNej]

Well, like you said, talents and skills, and more generally, different "roles" - melee rogue vs ranged rogue vs crit rogue etc. (I guess you could try to specialize the core classes into different "roles" in the D&D games too, but they probably weren't nearly as flexible)

Could work (though I'd prefer if stats had a greater impact), problem is we know next to nothing (or atleast I know next to nothing) about how combat skills(are there weapon skills, will there be a synergy between them etc.) and abilities selection will work, will every class automatically get some (class-specific) abilities on level up and choose from a pool of all-class usable/general abilities for example or will it be handed differently.

I mean if I want to specialize my char for say ranged combat and the difference between 10 dexterity and 18 dexterity is barely noticeable in practice, how will I go about doing that?

 

[Cyberarmy]

SA dump: http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...d=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=3#post424443954
*snip

I hope that I got "If a spell or ability doesn't go off, it isn't lost but it has to be started over" thing wrong... But sounds like decline big time to me.

 

[Infinitron]

Well, like you said, talents and skills, and more generally, different "roles" - melee rogue vs ranged rogue vs crit rogue etc. (I guess you could try to specialize the core classes into different "roles" in the D&D games too, but they probably weren't nearly as flexible)

Could work (though I'd prefer if stats had a greater impact), problem is we know next to nothing (or atleast I know next to nothing) about how combat skills(are there weapon skills, will there be a synergy between them etc.) and abilities selection will work, will every class automatically get some (class-specific) abilities on level up and choose from a pool of all-class usable/general abilities for example or will it be handed differently.

I mean if I want to specialize my char for say ranged combat and the difference between 10 dexterity and 18 dexterity is barely noticeable in practice, how will I go about doing that?

Like I said, I don't agree that differences of 10-20% are necessarily "barely noticeable". They're not overwhelming, but they add up and give your character an edge.

Also, remember that your attributes aren't set in stone after chargen; you can customize/improve them further with equipment that gives attribute bonuses, Diablo-style.

I hope that I got "If a spell or ability doesn't go off, it isn't lost but it has to be started over" thing wrong... But sounds like decline big time to me.

Is it? Doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. Generally in these games if your wizard gets interrupted that means a Fighter is about to run him through with a sword and casting the spell again isn't really much of an option anyway.

Also, players are likely to insta-reload if they lose their super duper high level spell. It's one of those tactical vs strategic things that PoE is separating between

 

[MicoSelva]

How can you simultaneously complain that all builds are "equally viable by design" and that Might is a must-have stat?

Where did I write that Might is a must-have stat? (If I did, it wasn't by intention.)

In that case what you said was a complete non-sequitur. "Might is unintuitive therefore all builds are equally viable by design" wut?

I never wrote that and have no idea what you are talking about, so I'll just try to explain my pov again, using different phrasing.

IMO there is a difference between making all atributes count (wizard has a use for high might) and making them artificially boost stats which they clearly have no business boosting (wizard benefits from high might because it increases his wizarding skills; with no in-lore explanation) to make the game more balanced.

The first one is a good thing, because it gets makes more builds viable (including the more quirky ones). The second one is a bad thing because of the following reasons.
1. It is unintuitive.
2. It spoils experimenting with the quirky builds (they are not quirky anymore).
3. It breaks immersion (if high might benefits wizards, why aren't most of the wizards we meet in the world muscle towers).

 

[Frusciante]

But a wizard with higher might will deal more damage than one with lower might. So, I would assume most wizards in Dyrwood, or whatever it is called, look more like Conan the Barbarian than Merlin. It would make no sense for them not to train their might if that also increases their magic power.

Obviously, this could be explained in-lore, with magical energy being drawn from one's muscles (like in Dragon Ball!), but I doubt that's going to be the case.

Anyway, if the same attribute governs magical damage and affects Darklands-style cutscenes about moving boulders out of the way, I want a photoshop mix between Gandalf and The Hulk.

I'm not a native english speaker, but might doesnt necessarily refer to physical strength does it?

In the context of a solder/fighter it will likely be interpreted as muscles, but the might of a wizard may be explained by the power of his soul, the knowledge of the arcane, his willpower etc? Or does the might of someone always refer to his physical prowess?

 

[Infinitron]

2. It spoils experimenting with the quirky builds (they are not quirky anymore).

Muscle wizards seem pretty quirky to me.

3. It breaks immersion (if high might benefits wizards, why aren't most of the wizards we meet in the world muscle towers).

Like I said, high damage != "good at magic". There are other factors to consider.

But hey, who says many of them won't be? I imagine the Eternity world has plenty of healthy young "muscle wizard" military battlemages serving in its armies.

With their High Might and low Dex, they might be like musketeers - high damage, low accuracy.

 

[MicoSelva]

I'm not a native english speaker, but might doesnt necessarily refer to physical strength does it?

In the context of a solder/fighter it will likely be interpreted as muscles, but the might of a wizard may be explained by the power of his soul, the knowledge of the arcane, his willpower etc? Or does the might of someone always refer to his physical prowess?

If it is called the same, it should refer to the same thing. Either might is physical prowess or some kind of psychic power. it can't be both.

 

[MicoSelva]

But hey, who says many of them won't be? I imagine the Eternity world has plenty of healthy young "muscle wizard" military battlemages serving in its armies.

I hope you're right, but I don't think that will be the case. Game system and lore segregation is strong in this one.

 

[Grunker]

what

does

it

matter

You people seem to be forgetting that the computer didn't give to fucks whether my fighter had 3 or 18 Int in the IE-games. If you gave him 10 Int because you couldn't live with a retarded protagonist, you were not just larping, you were doing the fucking essence of larping.

By actually giving you reason to invest in different ability scores, Sawyer has already given you larping fucks an excuse to keep larping. You're going to argue semantics then?

You loved BG2, Mico, if I recall. This is essentially an upgraded stat-system (larping-wise) in all ways, except you can't live with the fucking *name* given to one of the ability scores. Come the fuck on.

 

[Cyberarmy]

I hope that I got "If a spell or ability doesn't go off, it isn't lost but it has to be started over" thing wrong... But sounds like decline big time to me.

Is it? Doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. Generally in these games if your wizard got interrupted that means a Fighter is about to run him through with a sword and casting the spell again isn't really much of an option anyway.

Also, players are likely to insta-reload if they lose their super duper high level spell. It's one of those tactical vs strategic things that PoE is separating between

Enemy shooters become a less threat with this change. I can happily try to cast my powerfull spells without any fear of losing them, over and over. It'll kill the suspense and chaotic nature of combat casting mostly. And caster clerics/paladins who probably be at melee range will have easier time as well. This change make fights much forgiving and less tactical I'm afraid.

I never experienced that kind of save scumming but if someone is that desparete, they'll just do the same thing here when a critical spell interrupted 2-3 times in a row.

 

[MicoSelva]

You loved BG2, Mico, if I recall. This is essentially an upgraded stat-system (larping-wise) in all ways, except you can't live with the fucking *name* given to one of the ability scores. Come the fuck on.

It is not about the name.

But as I said yesterday, I might complain for the sake of it, but it really doesn't matter in the long run if there are no non-combat uses for stats.

If strength/might/bodybuildiness or whatever will not allow my character to do stuff that requires strength, it really is not strength and could actually be called MoreDamageness like Goegoff suggested.

But if there is a darklands-style cutscene where high Might will allow my character to move a boulder to enter a cave and steal some treasure, then there better be some explanation why the same exact stat increases my wizard's fireball damage.

 

[Infinitron]

Enemy shooters become a less threat with this change. I can happily try to cast my powerfull spells without any fear of losing them, over and over.

...while your mage takes sword blows to the gut and gets himself killed, meanwhile failing to assist his buddies with his spells, possibly leading them to get killed as well.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

what

does

it

matter

You people seem to be forgetting that the computer didn't give to fucks whether my fighter had 3 or 18 Int in the IE-games. If you gave him 10 Int because you couldn't live with a retarded protagonist, you were not just larping, you were doing the fucking essence of larping.

By actually giving you reason to invest in different ability scores, Sawyer has already given you larping fucks an excuse to keep larping. You're going to argue semantics then?

You loved BG2, Mico, if I recall. This is essentially an upgraded stat-system (larping-wise) in all ways, except you can't live with the fucking *name* given to one of the ability scores. Come the fuck on.

Not completely true regarding BG2, if you gave your fighter 3 Int mind flayers could kill him in one hit (not that they're that common as an enemy but still) but yeah in the game that is so combat-heavy making all stats give combat bonuses is good design IMO.

 

[Grunker]

But if there is a darklands-style cutscene where high Might will allow my character to move a boulder to enter a cave and steal some treasure, then there better be some explanation why the same exact stat increases my wizard's fireball damage.

Where is you that IWD let your Int 3 character talk like a fucking genius? Where is your scorn that your BG2 character's Charisma barely fucking even affected anything?

These things are rock solid fucking blemishes on that game. Your criticism of P:E is a niggle.

I'm defending a character system I'm not even that fond of in the first place here.

 

[Roguey]

But no different stats governing different types of damage might confuse some potential players....

That's not the reason. It's all about balance.

 

[Space Satan]

Any information on how attribute and dump stat problem have been solved in Torment: ToN?

 

[eremita]

I get PE is no simulator, but that thing with "Might" is just dumb (Imo, fuck the balance in this case). Unless it's supported by lore of course...

In reality, any kind of centralized self-perfection (no matter if you work out or complete a jigsaw in this case) makes your brain more organized, therefore focused and also helps to develope your willpower. Theoretically, it could benefit fantasy spellcasters. The problem is, almost any kind of self-perfection would (searching for traps too)... But I doubt devs were thinking about it in this way. Also, it's pretty far from DnD (thus IE games) concept...

 

[Cyberarmy]

Enemy shooters become a less threat with this change. I can happily try to cast my powerfull spells without any fear of losing them, over and over.

...while your mage takes sword blows to the gut and gets himself killed, meanwhile failing to assist his buddies with his spells, possibly leading them to get killed as well.

Just like IE games but if he manages to survive somehow nothing is lost now, except his pride.

 

[Roguey]

But hey, who says many of them won't be? I imagine the Eternity world has plenty of healthy young "muscle wizard" military battlemages serving in its armies.

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/eternity.gamepedia.com/5/50/Aloth.png
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/eternity.gamepedia.com/d/d7/AumauaWizard.jpg

I can happily try to cast my powerfull spells without any fear of losing them, over and over.

So can enemy casters.

And caster clerics/paladins who probably be at melee range will have easier time as well.

Not if they keep getting hit before they can cast. If they're in melee range they also have to deal with disengagement attacks before they can cast safely.

I don't remember ever losing a spell to an attack in the IE games. I did make it a priority to interrupt/kill casters asap.

Any information on how attribute and dump stat problem have been solved in Torment: ToN?

Numenera has three attributes: might, intellect, and speed. They don't affect rolls and are instead point pools you use on powers, abilities and effort.

• Player rolls a d20 against a Task Difficulty between 1 and 10. They have to beat the target number (which is always 3 times the difficulty. Difficulty 1 is target number 3, difficulty 8 is target number 24.)
• The skills, powers, tech, and effort applied from their stat pools lower the difficulty, even down to 0 difficulty. Environmental factors or complications can raise it or lower it (taking cover, shooting at something behind cover, etc.).
• That’s it. It’s easy. It handles everything. Even combat? Yes, check it out…

Combat

• When you attack, you roll against the opponent’s level, which is their task difficulty number.
• When you get attacked, you roll to dodge or block, same d20.
• Fight a level 5 creature, you have to beat 15 on the roll to do damage or avoid attacks.
• Damage is static, so a successful attack deals the damage of the attack.

Other Situations

• It works the same in other situations as well. Try to negotiate with an NPC, the target number is their level.
• NPCs and enemies sometimes have modifications to show that they are better in some ways. I.E. Perception is at Level 3, so that they are better at noticing things.
• An enemy or NPC is as easy to write up as “Ghabhail: level 5, level 6 with polearm; 2 points of Armor (damage reduction by 2).

Very streamlined.

 

[MicoSelva]

Where is you that IWD let your Int 3 character talk like a fucking genius? Where is your scorn that your BG2 character's Charisma barely fucking even affected anything?

These things are rock solid fucking blemishes on that game.

The rage has faded away with time, but the scorn is still there. I was hugely disappointed where most of my bard's stats from first plathrough of BG1 turned out to be useless. Of course I only discovered it on my second playthrough, as a dwarven fighter.

PST and Fallouts were so much better in this regard it is not even funny.

Still, BGs had different strengths, which in the long run have prevailed in my memories over the issues I had. And it would be pointless to argue about INT not affecting anything in BG right now - nothing can be done about that. PE is still in the works.

 

[Grunker]

The rage has faded away with time, but the scorn is still there. I was hugely disappointed where most of my bard's stats from first plathrough of BG1 turned out to be useless. Of course I only discovered it on my second playthrough, as a dwarven fighter.

What you are saying here: "I wish PoE wasn't an IE-copy, but instead a choice-game that focused more on stats and reactivity."

I hope you can see why that's a pretty fucking frustrating thing to argue against in a thread about a game dedicated to being an IE-successor.

The day the simulationists form some kind of coherent theory of how they want their games to be made, I'll take them seriously. Right now you're all just 100 different people with 100 different subjective wants and desires that you root in a vague sense of your definition of simulation.

 

[Infinitron]

I made a thread about the spell interruption thing: http://forums.obsidian.net/forum/90-pillars-of-eternity-crpg-gameplay-mechanics/

But yeah, again: 1) This wasn't really an important mechanic in the IE games. 2) It actually benefits enemy mages more than it benefits your own mages (because they can't reload saved games if they lose a spell), thereby making the game harder, not easier. Difficulty is good.

 

[Shadenuat]

Not completely true regarding BG2, if you gave your fighter 3 Int mind flayers could kill him in one hit

I'll be even nerdy and say that in both games a character with Intelligence less of 9 can't read magical scrolls, including scroll of protection from magic (green ones). Which can screw you up in solo run. The more you know...
...nao back unto Grunker and his simulationism hating!

 

[MicoSelva]

What you are saying here: "I wish PoE wasn't an IE-copy, but instead a choice-game that focused more on stats and reactivity."

Yes, except its completely not what I'm saying. PE should copy stat releveance from Torment (where it was done well) instead of BG (where it sucked) or IWD (where it sucked even more). Last time I checked Torment was also an IE game, and it was cited as an inspiration (along with BG and IWD) in the KS campaign, so why not?

This is however a slightly different topic than the one I've ranting about whole day, so I'm not sure if we're changing the subject here or just broadening the scope of the discussion?

PE is not a carbon copy of any IE game. It is supposed to play to their strengths, while improving on their weaknesses. The CYOA segments are one such improvement, and since they will be using stat checks (I presume), I want the stats to be clearly defined and make sense.

Regarding simulationism: reality has been playtested for a really long time, so borrrowing from it (called: realism) gives you access to a lot of concepts that work, which is probably why it is done from time to time.

 

[Sensuki]

MicroSelva seems to have the same problem that a lot of the Obsidiantards have with the stat system.

Btw bro I believe you are talking about stat use in dialogue am I right ? That was where Torment attributes were useful.