Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Storyfag]

The day the simulationists form some kind of coherent theory of how they want their games to be made, I'll take them seriously.

I agree with and pledge my full support to the theories proposed by MicoSelva. Now you have to take us both seriously

 

[MicoSelva]

MicroSelva

Hey, I don't go around calling you 'Sensiku'.

 

[Cyberarmy]

I made a thread about the spell interruption thing: http://forums.obsidian.net/forum/90-pillars-of-eternity-crpg-gameplay-mechanics/

But yeah, again: 1) This wasn't really an important mechanic in the IE games. 2) It actually benefits enemy mages more than it benefits your own mages (because they can't reload saved games if they lose a spell), thereby making the game harder, not easier. Difficulty is good.

1)It is not really an important mechanic in IE games and not going to be an important mechanic in PE either. I just like to "drain" casters quickly and make them less usefull. I played to many P&P sesions and my brain will have a hard time ignoring this.

2)Casters are going to become main targets if they'll be deadly/annoying as their D&D counterparts, instead of use one member to interrupt them with arrows/bullets all combat. I assume that rogues, barbarians and maybe even warriors are going to have some "dailies" that'll help them avoid/disengage enemy melee and rush to poor,squishy casters. It won't be harder, just going to feel different and somewhat MMOish.

3)Why are we writing like gaudost

 

[Sensuki]

No I swear, I've actually been imagining an R in your name for over a year.

 

[Cyberarmy]

No I swear, I've actually been imagining an R in your name for over a year.

LoL, I too just realized that there isn't any "R" in his name. Sorry MicoSelva

 

[Harold]

Not completely true regarding BG2, if you gave your fighter 3 Int mind flayers could kill him in one hit (not that they're that common as an enemy but still)

Potions of Genius.

 

[MicoSelva]

Sensuki Cyberarmy No problem, I've read about this a whle ago. Apparently, while reading in a known language people mostly see the first and last letter of the word and their brain substitutes the rest automatically.

No ieda if taht's raelly the csae but it semes mroe lkiely now tahn bfeore.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Roguey

You will have to do better to troll me from now on...
Josh mentioned that perfect balance wasn't his ultimate aim. He wants to bring uniformity to the way stats work in order to make it more welcoming to new players.
You probably have the relevant quotes bookmarked.

MicoSelva
Exactly what I wanted to reply to Grunker's Grunking. Attributes should have non combat checks like in PST, the IE game which handled them best. And a single stat that allows a wizard to do HULK SMASH and Eldritch Magicks seems unintuitive if that stat is also used in these roles in dialouges.

Grunker
For someone with such a massive hardon for GURPS... why do you hate simulationist approach to cRPG design?

 

[MicoSelva]

Grunker enjoys a variety od different systems while most simulationists only see one true way (their own), that's why he picks on them (I think).

I have a smilar view and like both realistic and abstract systems in games (either can be made well or badly). I just disagree with the current approach for PE in this matter, at least when it comes to attributes.

 

[Arkeus]

I'm not a native english speaker, but might doesnt necessarily refer to physical strength does it?

In the context of a solder/fighter it will likely be interpreted as muscles, but the might of a wizard may be explained by the power of his soul, the knowledge of the arcane, his willpower etc? Or does the might of someone always refer to his physical prowess?

If it is called the same, it should refer to the same thing. Either might is physical prowess or some kind of psychic power. it can't be both.

Aahahahah.

Or maybe Might IS the power of the soul when it comes to affecting 'might', and as such it both increases physical and magical damage, as it's a passive +% damage from the mightiness of your soul.

Seems like almost negligible difference. If removing "bad builds" for Josh means that stats just don't affect that much, I don't see why use stats at all. You might as well base whole system around items and perks.

That's the idea.

The game was designed without stats first - they were only added relatively recently. It's quite likely that they wouldn't have made it in at all if this wasn't supposed to be an Infinity Engine-like game.

That said, I'm not sure that 16% is that marginal.

Josh Sawyer has been saying that he wants to have 3 sources of influences for each 'abilities'. As such, a wizard that's specifically specced toward damage should probably be expected to cast spells that do 50%~ more damage than one who is not.

OTOH, one who is specced toward areas of effects would do much bigger booms, etc etc.

 

[Grunker]

For someone with such a massive hardon for GURPS... why do you hate simulationist approach to cRPG design?

Which part of being a simulationist is it that makes reading difficult?

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...project-eternity.75947/page-1059#post-3055514

I am not arguing against simulationism.

I am arguing against those who hold that it weighs more heavy than any other concern in system design. I am arguing against those who want an IE-successor to rely heavily on simulationism. Just like I would argue against people saying how there is not enough Basketball in their Soccer game.

Grunker enjoys a variety od different systems while most simulationists only see one true way (their own), that's why he picks on them (I think).

Bingo.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

So you are like those libruls who want to enjoy diversity instead of accepting some ways are inherently shittier than others.

 

[Monad]

Sensuki Cyberarmy No problem, I've read about this a whle ago. Apparently, while reading in a known language people mostly see the first and last letter of the word and their brain substitutes the rest automatically.

No ieda if taht's raelly the csae but it semes mroe lkiely now tahn bfeore.

ttollay ture you can raed all knids of srcbmaled wrdos vrey easily.

 

[coffeetable]

Sensuki Cyberarmy No problem, I've read about this a whle ago. Apparently, while reading in a known language people mostly see the first and last letter of the word and their brain substitutes the rest automatically.

this is a myth

 

[aleph]

Sensuki Cyberarmy No problem, I've read about this a whle ago. Apparently, while reading in a known language people mostly see the first and last letter of the word and their brain substitutes the rest automatically.

this is a myth

are you rlleay srue aobut taht?

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Roguey

You will have to do better to troll me from now on...
Josh mentioned that perfect balance wasn't his ultimate aim. He wants to bring uniformity to the way stats work in order to make it more welcoming to new players.
You probably have the relevant quotes bookmarked.

MicoSelva
Exactly what I wanted to reply to Grunker's Grunking. Attributes should have non combat checks like in PST, the IE game which handled them best. And a single stat that allows a wizard to do HULK SMASH and Eldritch Magicks seems unintuitive if that stat is also used in these roles in dialouges.

Grunker
For someone with such a massive hardon for GURPS... why do you hate simulationist approach to cRPG design?

I wouldn't say it's just to make it more welcoming to new players to the genre (and simpletons that were frustrated with IE games) though undoubtebly that's one of the reasons (unfortunately Josh can't help himself in that regard), I think Josh's main goal overall is to design an elegant system that is easy to get into (not obtuse), does away with all the things that frustrate Josh regarding other systems while keeping the good sides. I think it's something that has been going in his head for years but only now has the chance to finally try it out in a CRPG.

Regarding might affecting both physical and magic damage, remember this is a new setting and magic is the one thing that hardly has a constant definition across all different systems/games/settings. For all we know in PoE world, wizard's personality/lifestyle could affect his magic output, a wizard who engages in rigorous physical exercise and isn't stranger to using a sword will have a more aggressive approach to magic as well resulting in more damaging spells while the bookish wizard type with high intelligence will have amazing focus which will allow his brand of magic to last longer and affect a larger area, iron willed wizard with high resolve will be very hard to interrupt etc.

Magic is not easily defined so in theory it should be something where designer has the most freedom and can get creative with ways to explain how it works in his (created) world.

 

[Cosmo]

For all we know in PoE world, wizard's personality/lifestyle could affect his magic output, a wizard who engages in rigorous physical exercise and isn't stranger to using a sword will have a more aggressive approach to magic as well resulting in more damaging spells while the bookish wizard type with high intelligence will have amazing focus which will allow his brand of magic to last longer and affect a larger area, iron willed wizard with high resolve will be very hard to interrupt etc.

Magic stems from souls so it's obviously something of that kind...

 

[SCO]

Guys, Torment's dialogs/quests are a rats maze of conditions. It was probably the single most QA-effort significant part of that game so i don't think you'll see their kind in P:E, which is supposed to harken to BG, the slightly unsophisticated quest receptacle.
While checking a 'stat' a dialog should be easy technically, i think that that kind of quest elaboration is only worth it if the quests and dialogs are worthy of it (same deal for item interaction/puzzles). So for instance, collecting stories from obscure quests for the brothel of slaking intellectual lusts is entertaining, because of all the text and callbacks to previous quests through the eyes of your companions, but checking if we have a dead cat in inventory in IWD2 is .... a good effort i guess? Oh goody, my paladin auto-declines reward how intredasting.

But who knows, maybe they'll deviate from bioware standard

 

[Roguey]

No, they're not making a Bioware game.

If participating in a specific type of core gameplay is not enjoyable on its own, our game is bad and I sincerely encourage people to not engage in it/not play the game. There is one main thing we want to reward with XP in our game: pursuing and completing quests. Our quests are unique, they cannot be repeated, and they typically can be completed in a number of different ways using a number of different gameplay mechanics. If you get tired of talking to people to solve quests, start provoking fights. If you get tired of fighting, start sneaking around. If none of those things are fun anymore, then the game's not fun anymore. I don't want to motivate people to grit their teeth while using gameplay mechanics they hate because there's an XP incentive for doing so.

You will have to do better to troll me from now on...
Josh mentioned that perfect balance wasn't his ultimate aim. He wants to bring uniformity to the way stats work in order to make it more welcoming to new players.
You probably have the relevant quotes bookmarked.

Not bookmarked, but I do have a good memory when it comes to Joshfacts.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64964-update-70-new-year-project-update/?view=findpost&p=1407834

One of the advantages of having different attributes governing physical and magical accuracy/damage, apart from important RP reasons, is to be able to fine-tune balance between physical and magical attacks.

If all damage is affected by Might and all accuracy by Dexterity, you can't adjust attribute-enhancing spells/talents/items with specifically physical or magical damage/accuracy in mind.

As a designer, why would I want to? If someone wants to play a traditional wizard, they'll bump Int and have big AoEs and long effect durations, which is cool and beneficial. If someone wants to make a muscle wizard, they can bump Might. If they don't like the idea of having a high Might wizard, there are five other stats for them to bump for their benefit.

Tuning is easier when there are fewer/less diverse input sources. If Might is the attribute that affects damage for everyone, it's much easier for me to calculate how that feeds into the system than if every arbitrary type of attack/damage has its own attribute that affects it.

Acknowledging that perfect balance isn't possible isn't the same thing as not doing everything he can to make the most balanced game he can.

 

[OSK]

Sensuki Cyberarmy No problem, I've read about this a whle ago. Apparently, while reading in a known language people mostly see the first and last letter of the word and their brain substitutes the rest automatically.

this is a myth

are you rlleay srue aobut taht?

Bblaaesl pryleas pnmrrioefg sllaimy aeoulltsby dvrseee clbrpmaaoe tteenmrat.

 

[Xor]

I'd heard that first and last letter thing as well so I did some research. From what I could find, the first and last letter thing is indeed a myth; there hasn't been any research into that phenomenon. That doesn't mean it's not true - there could indeed be something going on where the brain is able to figure out the correct word based on context, length, appearance of certain characters, etc. Obviously there are limits to how messed up a word can appear before it becomes unrecognizable, but people overlook small typos all the time, especially in casual reading.

 

[Monad]

You can take really long sentences and scramble all of the letters of each word except the first and last and you'll be able to read it very easily.

 

[OSK]

You can take really long sentences and scramble all of the letters of each word except the first and last and you'll be able to read it very easily.

Did you miss my post there? That's a real sentence.

Bblaaesl pryleas pnmrrioefg sllaimy aeoulltsby dvrseee clbrpmaaoe tteenmrat.

 

[hiver]

whats a simulationist?

 

[Hormalakh]

baseball players performing ..... absolutely deserve comparable treatment.