Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Lancehead]

The problem with pickpocketing in RPGs isn't mechanics, it's believable consequences.

The problem is developer incompetency. If Bethesda can get the basics of a crime system in place, these so-called RPG saviour designers should be capable of doing better.

 

[tuluse]

The problem is developer incompetency. If Bethesda can get the basics of a crime system in place, these so-called RPG saviour designers should be capable of doing better.

Sometimes nothing is better than something.

 

[FeelTheRads]

He actually thinks people will play this retarded dodge the circle game just to sneak with the whole party. My god, people manage just one character when sneaking, the horror. They just don't know how games are supposed to be played.

 

[Lhynn]

The problem is developer incompetency.

Its true, save/load trivializes everything tho, thats why i like checkpoints and save&exit mechanics.

 

[Infinitron]

He actually thinks people will play this retarded dodge the circle game just to sneak with the whole party. My god, people manage just one character when sneaking, the horror. They just don't know how games are supposed to be played.

He's trying to make a game where stealth is used as more than a simple combat positioning mechanic. This is a good thing.

 

[Jedi Exile]

Sawyer is obsessed with the idea of sneaking with the whole party since Icewind Dale 2: in some locations you could either sneak or fight. It was possible only in certain places and if I remember correctly it was more profitable just to slaughter everyone.

He actually thinks people will play this retarded dodge the circle game just to sneak with the whole party. My god, people manage just one character when sneaking, the horror. They just don't know how games are supposed to be played.

He's trying to make a game where stealth is used as more than a simple combat positioning mechanic. This is a good thing.

What? In IE games stealth was also used for robbing people and houses, and this was my favourite part - I have robbed every house in Baldur's Gate/Athkatla.

 

[Grunker]

What? In IE games stealth was also used for robbing people and houses, and this was my favourite part - I have robbed every house in Baldur's Gate/Athkatla.

Which gained you nothing. Everything worthwhile in IE can be taken without stealth. Hell, even "stealth" missions are better solved with one potion of invisibility.

 

[Infinitron]

Stealth for stealing wasn't very effective in the IE games because manipulating containers tended to de-stealth you. Robbery in Baldur's Gate was about closing doors so NPCs couldn't see you steal, at best.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Which gained you nothing. Everything worthwhile in IE can be taken without stealth.

Therefore stealth was bad, amirite? Sawyer's system would have made it gain you lots.

 

[Grunker]

You're gonna have to explain to me how stealth was useful in any way in the IE games, otherwise:

Therefore stealth was bad, amirite?

Yes. Obviously. Redudant mechanics = shit.

I can also be retarded like you if you want me to:

LOL STEALTH IN IE GAMES WAS 2TAL INCLINE LET'S FUCK THIEVES BECAUSE LOL THEY SUCK

How the fuck can you get butthurt that a developer is trying to make something actually matter as opposed to not matter at all?

 

[Jedi Exile]

Which gained you nothing. Everything worthwhile in IE can be taken without stealth.

Therefore stealth was bad, amirite? Sawyer's system would have made it gain you lots.

Yeah, better just remove it, who cares

I agree that stealth in BG wasn't great, but it was there and it was fun. I still remember how I robbed the cave with two flesh golems - getting there with all the sirens wasn't easy (yes, because entering the cave de-stealthed you) and getting out was even more difficult, but the loot (and excitement) was worth it.

 

[FeelTheRads]

You're gonna have to explain to me how stealth was useful

You're gonna have to explain to me how this discussion was about the usefulness of stealth and not about how it's done mechanically.

Redudant mechanics = shit.

Right... so...

If there's no use for Sawyers mechanic then it's shit too (it's shit anyway), do you agree? Hence, transplanting it into BG wouldn't do any difference in terms of usefulness.

 

[MicoSelva]

Pickpocketing mechanics were bad in IE games, no doubt about that.

But simply removing a bad mechanic is not a good solution, if you don't have anything to replace it with. Isn't stripping features from RPGs one of the symptoms of ?

It was the same with inventory in the first Mass Effect. It was bad, but removing it for ME2 did not improve things in any way, and made the game even less of an RPG (and ME1 already barely held to that genre).

 

[ZagorTeNej]

You're gonna have to explain to me how stealth was useful in any way in the IE games, otherwise:

-Backstab, easy win button against many mages in the game against whom Josh swears you need a mage in a party to successfully get past. Hit and run tactics, once you get boots of speed you can clean out rooms of enemies very easily with just your thief without wasting resources/spells/resting.

-Scouting, assessing the threat and nuking it with a mage.

 

[Arkeus]

Pickpocketing mechanics were bad in IE games, no doubt about that.

But simply removing a bad mechanic is not a good solution, if you don't have anything to replace it with. Isn't stripping features from RPGs one of the symptoms of ?

We are getting pickpocketing in dialogues/prompts in PS:T special action style, and as such i feel like it's replacing it for somethign better.

 

[Infinitron]

Okay I don't understand what's going on here now

Eternity has stealth that you can use for sneaking through areas as well as scouting and ambushing. Nobody's removing anything.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Eternity has stealth that you can use for sneaking through areas as well as scouting and ambushing.

So, then all it does it add dodge the circle.
I can totally see how that makes it more useful.

Wanna bet that "Everything worthwhile in PE can be taken without stealth."?

 

[Infinitron]

So, then all it does it add dodge the circle.
I can totally see how that makes it more useful.

It doesn't "add". It replaces the IE games' constant behind-the-scenes dice rolling ("STEALTH CHECK FAILED, YOU ARE TURNING VISIBLE NOW") with a threshold-based mechanic. The thresholds are represented visually by said circles.

Wanna bet that "Everything worthwhile in PE can be taken without stealth."?

Okay. Who cares?

You're trying too hard here bro, trying way too hard

 

[Decado]

Pickpocketing mechanics were bad in IE games, no doubt about that.

But simply removing a bad mechanic is not a good solution, if you don't have anything to replace it with. Isn't stripping features from RPGs one of the symptoms of ?

It was the same with inventory in the first Mass Effect. It was bad, but removing it for ME2 did not improve things in any way, and made the game even less of an RPG (and ME1 already barely held to that genre).

Pick pocketing is mostly a non-combat/exploration skill anyways. I mean, it makes sense to have it in a game where there is a robust set of non-combat skills, or where immersion is your goal (Skyrim, for example, though even here I never really saw its value). PoE is primarily a combat-centric game, so I don't care if a mostly-non-combat skill isn't included in the setup. It is never useful anyways -- why pick pocket someone when you can rifle through their belongings after you kill them? Why steal the key when you can pick the lock? Etc.

 

[Space Satan]

 

[Decado]

Eternity has stealth that you can use for sneaking through areas as well as scouting and ambushing.

So, then all it does it add dodge the circle.
I can totally see how that makes it more useful.

Wanna bet that "Everything worthwhile in PE can be taken without stealth."?

So? They have been upfront from day one about the game being a combat heavy homage to IE games. I swear to god, why do so many codex posters not fucking pay attention?

 

[Jedi Exile]

I mean, it makes sense to have it in a game where there is a robust set of non-combat skills, or where immersion is your goal (Skyrim, for example, though even here I never really saw its value)

You forgot that you could take off NPC' clothing (and they won't even notice ) That was fun, though in a retarded, Bethesda way. Sawyer is at least more subtle, he is going to substitute pickpocketing by text-based adventure. This is decline and incline combined, bros.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

You forgot that you could take off NPC' clothing (and they won't even notice ) That was fun, though in a retarded, Bethesda way. Sawyer is at least more subtle, he is going to substitute pickpocketing by text-based adventure. This is decline and incline combined, bros.

I actually like that idea, sounds like it will be done similarly to the way it was in Risen.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Okay. Who cares?

I don't know, people who think that stealth in IE games sucked because you could do everything without stealth anyway. Just pointing out that if that's the case, stealth will suck in PE too.

 

[Infinitron]

Okay. Who cares?

I don't know, people who think that stealth in IE games sucked because you could do everything without stealth anyway. Just pointing out that if that's the case, stealth will suck in PE too.

We were talking about robbing houses, not "everything".

In the IE games, stealth was not a viable method to progress through dungeons and other areas because:

1) Typically only Thieves had it
2) It was too finnicky with its randomness
3) You missed out on experience points for not killing enemies instead

So that's a definite improvement in PE.

BTW, this discussion motivated me to do some Googling on the stealth in Baldur's Gate, where I discovered some interesting things: https://forum.baldursgate.com/discu...on-t-understand-move-silently-hide-in-shadows

Wonder if it worked any differently in IWD. Probably not.