Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Tigranes]

The stealth stuff sounds great, I just hope the difference between stealth dedicated Rogue and other characters is significant enough that in some cases you still want the Rogue going in alone.

 

[FeelTheRads]

1) Typically only Thieves had it

Which is as it should be. If you make a class-based system then make it class-based not some mutant spliced with classless.

2) It was too finnicky with its randomness
3) You missed out on experience points for not killing enemies instead

That's true, however dodge the circle is as a hamfisted solution as only Sawyer can come up with to fix the randomness. Of course, he's the "minigames for everything" kind of designer so no surprise there.

And how will experience work for stealth in PE then?

 

[Grunker]

SKILL SYSTEMS IN CLASS-BASED SYSTEMS SUCK, THUS, ALL P&P SYSTEMS ARE RETARDED

Seems you agree with Roguey on that last bit. Fitting.

You are a massive, cum-guzzling faggot sir.

And how will experience work for stealth in PE then?

You get XP for objectives. However you tackle obstacles is up to you. Rewards are granted by completion, not method-specific completion. As it should be.

If there's no use for Sawyers mechanic then it's shit too (it's shit anyway), do you agree?

How is there no use for Sawyers mechanic?

You're gonna have to explain to me how stealth was useful in any way in the IE games, otherwise:

-Backstab, easy win button against many mages in the game against whom Josh swears you need a mage in a party to successfully get past. Hit and run tactics, once you get boots of speed you can clean out rooms of enemies very easily with just your thief without wasting resources/spells/resting.

-Scouting, assessing the threat and nuking it with a mage.

Invissibility is readily available and beats the shit out of stealth for both of these things.

 

[set]

Well, xp in PE is not rewarded for killing things. It's objective-based, supposedly.

I recall reading the design was that theives could sneak by enemies to trigger traps or reach good places of cover to attack at a distance from (like climbing a tower to attack a z-level lower on enemies).

The problem with stealth in party-based RPGs is everyone in the party needs a stealth power or somebody has to be left behind at some point... Making players devote all party members to stealth is usually not possible (or fun).

Stealth works 'okay' in games like JA2 though, where you can have multiple parties and design various groups around their skills - a party of gunners could have high camo and shit to sneak up on doods and shoot em'. In a game where you only get one party though...

 

[hiver]

You're gonna have to explain to me how stealth was useful in any way in the IE games, otherwise:

-Backstab, easy win button against many mages in the game against whom Josh swears you need a mage in a party to successfully get past. Hit and run tactics, once you get boots of speed you can clean out rooms of enemies very easily with just your thief without wasting resources/spells/resting.

-Scouting, assessing the threat and nuking it with a mage.

both almost some kind of cheats. cheap, superficial and inelegant uses.
fucking backstabbing and that stupid two step gameplay.

It should have much more gameplay relevant uses, from solutions to sub quests to specific content that cant be accessed without it, both in terms of combat, gear, sub quests, narrative and C&C of each.

 

[Space Satan]

Well, xp in PE is not rewarded for killing things. It's objective-based, supposedly.

Except that avoiding the fight prevents you from collecting the loot.

 

[Grunker]

You're gonna have to explain to me how stealth was useful in any way in the IE games, otherwise:

-Backstab, easy win button against many mages in the game against whom Josh swears you need a mage in a party to successfully get past. Hit and run tactics, once you get boots of speed you can clean out rooms of enemies very easily with just your thief without wasting resources/spells/resting.

-Scouting, assessing the threat and nuking it with a mage.

both almost some kind of cheats. cheap, superficial and inelegant uses.
fucking backstabbing and that stupid two step gameplay.

It should have much more gameplay relevant uses, from solutions to sub quests to specific content that cant be accessed without it, both in terms of combat, gear, sub quests, narrative and C&C of each.

To be fair, they tried. Baldur's Gate has like 3 stealth missions where you are meant to sneak around with your thief. It just fails because a) Invisibility pots, and b) interaction = visible

Well, xp in PE is not rewarded for killing things. It's objective-based, supposedly.

Except that avoiding the fight prevents you from collecting the loot.

I am not sure, but I recall Josh mentioning stealth should be used for getting the drop on your opponents, not necesarily bypassing entire areas. I will strongly dislike a stealth solution that basically means loot-free objective completion.

 

[set]

Well, xp in PE is not rewarded for killing things. It's objective-based, supposedly.

Except that avoiding the fight prevents you from collecting the loot.

Right. But depending upon itemization, it may not matter. Like, in VTMB, most of the good loot could be bought, found or stolen and killing people for their items was usually not a thing.

 

[Space Satan]

Right. But depending upon itemization, it may not matter. Like, in VTMB, most of the good loot could be bought, found or stolen and killing people for their items was usually not a thing.

VTM featured only three types of equipment: Melee Weapons, armors and artefacts, ranged weapons sucked. All rare and scarce. POI is advertised as an item-heavy game. In VTMB items helped, but were not critical, especially with certain skills, like unarmed/brawling. I highly doubt you could play POI with minimal equipment even as a monk.

 

[set]

Right. But depending upon itemization, it may not matter. Like, in VTMB, most of the good loot could be bought, found or stolen and killing people for their items was usually not a thing.

VTM featured only three types of equipment: Melee Weapons, armors and artefacts, ranged weapons sucked. All rare and scarce. POI is advertised as an item-heavy game. In VTMB items helped, but were not critical, especially with certain skills, like unarmed/brawling. I highly doubt you could play POI with minimal equipment even as a monk.

I don't think you understand my reasoning - if the best items are not gotten through killing people, there are other ways of having interesting itemization. Quest rewards are one way. Shops or hidden places to discover is another. Crafting is final approach.

If enemies all just drop junk when you kill them, then it's not worth killing them, except to obtain the most basic equipment needed to kill things. In VTMB, enemies tended to drop ammo if you killed them and that was usually it, if not a weapon that was inferior to the one you were already using. A system like that could still work in a loot-heavy game.

 

[imweasel]

About the elaborate stealth mechanics: Sawyer is not making a BG clone, he is trying to make a BG clone²... Or so he thinks.

I like stealth and would enjoy a few quests that can be solved by using stealth, diversification is always good. But would I like elaborate stealth mechanics that can be used in every quest?
Nope, sorry, not in a combat based RPG. Sometimes less really is just more. Not to mention that the budget is limited, they should concentrate solely on trying to make the combat fucking awesome and save the elaborate stealth mechanics for a DLC/expansion.

Well, xp in PE is not rewarded for killing things. It's objective-based, supposedly.

Except that avoiding the fight prevents you from collecting the loot.

So you're saying that people will probably kill everything just for loot? Wasn't one of the (major) reasons to not reward combat with xp to prevent people from killing everything? xD

 

[MicoSelva]

We are getting pickpocketing in dialogues/prompts in PS:T special action style, and as such i feel like it's replacing it for somethign better.

Ah, ok then. This is actually better than it was in IE (not very good, but still an improvement). I misunderstood that pickpocketing is just gone.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Invissibility is readily available and beats the shit out of stealth for both of these things.

Yeah but stealth skill is free and always (well as soon as you're around the corner) available, invisibility either requires wasting spellslots for the spell (and you may not be a mage, have a mage in your party or have UAI), wasting finite resources (potions of invisibility) or using per day invisibility items.

both almost some kind of cheats. cheap, superficial and inelegant uses.
fucking backstabbing and that stupid two step gameplay.

It should have much more gameplay relevant uses, from solutions to sub quests to specific content that cant be accessed without it, both in terms of combat, gear, sub quests, narrative and C&C of each.

I agree, stealth can be implemented much better (though not enough to rival stealth games of course as it shouldn't be the main focus), that said I still had fun with it and found it useful even with the stealth system being as crude as it was in IE games.

What Sawyer proposes certainly sounds more interesting than how it was in IE games.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

VTM featured only three types of equipment: Melee Weapons, armors and artefacts, ranged weapons sucked. All rare and scarce. POI is advertised as an item-heavy game. In VTMB items helped, but were not critical, especially with certain skills, like unarmed/brawling. I highly doubt you could play POI with minimal equipment even as a monk.

Not gonna go into detail about it in this thread but no, just no.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

About the elaborate stealth mechanics: Sawyer is not making a BG clone, he is trying to make a BG clone²... Or so he thinks.

I like stealth and would enjoy a few quests that can be solved by using stealth, diversification is always good. But would I like elaborate stealth mechanics that can be used in every quest?
Nope, sorry, not in a combat based RPG. Sometimes less really is just more. Not to mention that the budget is limited, they should concentrate solely on trying to make the combat fucking awesome and save the elaborate stealth mechanics for a DLC/expansion.

Stealth mechanics being more complex than they were in IE games /= elaborate stealth mechanics.

 

[FeelTheRads]

SKILL SYSTEMS IN CLASS-BASED SYSTEMS SUCK, THUS, ALL P&P SYSTEMS ARE RETARDED

Yeah.. no.

How is there no use for Sawyers mechanic?

Dude, you said and keep saying that stealth in IE was bad because it was useless.. useless as in you could skip it. Not use it. Use something else instead. Get it? Therefore, if you can skip stealth in PE, then stealth in PE sucks. Agreed or not?

Well, xp in PE is not rewarded for killing things. It's objective-based, supposedly.

Obviously, another "let's just remove it" solution.
And once again no real fix.. instead of placing trash mobs so they can be sure you can get enough experience they just give a set experience. But hey, there won't be people grinding for experience which is a terrible thing for all people who play the game.

 

[MicoSelva]

Yeah, the stealth changes sound nice. This mechanic never made any sense in IE games, and was completely overpowered in solo plays (especially with items such as cloak of on-detection and staff of the magi). I count this one as one of the improvements.

 

[Alex]

Strength now affects magic damage?

...

Well, at least this game is good for a few laughs.

I just wished they went full stupid and made stuff like naming the attributes colors and what not. Blue could affect both magic and physical damage, and they could rebrand it into a Smurf role playing game.

 

[Infinitron]

Obviously, another "let's just remove it" solution.
And once again no real fix.. instead of placing trash mobs

Please be trolling.

 

[aleph]

You can take really long sentences and scramble all of the letters of each word except the first and last and you'll be able to read it very easily.

Did you miss my post there? That's a real sentence.

Bblaaesl pryleas pnmrrioefg sllaimy aeoulltsby dvrseee clbrpmaaoe tteenmrat.

Ok, convinced. Though it does seem to work with words that are not too long, not longer than 5-7 letters or something like this

 

[hiver]

Stealth can be and should be used in combat in other ways then to deal direct damage.
You should be able to use environment more to your advantage, set up or exploit traps or get to re-rigging them to hurt enemies, you could reach ... i dont know, controls of something to switch off or on to the advantage of the group, or just lead a group of enemies or an enemy astray, away from the party. Lots and lots of ways in which you could use that in relatively simple ways that would mean a lot.

Generally if the skill is in the game and presented as equal to all others - then yes, it should have effect on everything you do in the game. Not to the exact same extent because that should be dependent on the exact situation, not some global crud rule which would need to be hammered in for every quest.

Sure BG and other games tried (and failed) and they had some use for it - but it is clearly something that desperately needs more diversity, instead of being used only as a simplistic crude measure in combat.



The circles mechanic sounds ok, but it only makes me think that environment itself wont have an effect on it. By that i mean the architecture of a location since that circle will always be circular - so... it seems it will go through walls and wont be affected by anything else either, except the enemy rating and such, as explained.
As an abstraction... i can go with it but... its just going to look very fucking strange in some places and moments.
(And additionally - is it the same stealthing through a shallow pond or a small lake or other such space covered with water as opposed to walking through a marble temple as opposed to stealthing over a meadow full of soft grass or moss - for example, not to mention day, night and so on)

 

[Space Satan]

So you're saying that people will probably kill everything just for loot? Wasn't one of the (major) reasons to not reward combat with xp to prevent people from killing everything? xD

People WILL kill everything. If we abstain from metagaming, where you know what certain characters will drop, then it is always more profitable to kill "just in case". You either have to make a general rule, something like "all goblins drop crap unless named character", "all spiders drop X ingredient", or reserve loot for chests and stashes only, so killing someone would not earn you any loot and thus devalue entire confrontation.

 

[Grunker]

Dude, you said and keep saying that stealth in IE was bad because it was useless.. useless as in you could skip it. Not use it

No, you idiot, as in "worse than everything else." As in "no reason to use it." As in "provides you with no edge." As in "not useful."

Obviously, another "let's just remove it" solution.
And once again no real fix..

Are you... serious?

 

[Lancehead]

The problem is developer incompetency. If Bethesda can get the basics of a crime system in place, these so-called RPG saviour designers should be capable of doing better.

Sometimes nothing is better than something.

My consideration of something lies beyond whether or not it's made by Bethesda.

The problem is developer incompetency.

Its true, save/load trivializes everything tho, thats why i like checkpoints and save&exit mechanics.

Probably, but then attempt should be made to improve the save system instead opting for an inferior design.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Dude, you said and keep saying that stealth in IE was bad because it was useless.. useless as in you could skip it. Not use it

No, you idiot, as in "worse than everything else." As in "no reason to use it." As in "provides you with no edge." As in "not useful."

Obviously, another "let's just remove it" solution.
And once again no real fix..

Are you... serious?

Interesting. Maybe next time you'd like not to cut shit you quote in two.