Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Roguey]

Any kind of negative consequence to a failed pickpocket = reload for many people.

I think it's more of a balance/fun issue. It seems to me like they don't want to add tiny pieces of junk and gold to nearly every NPC. Going around treating every NPC like a container doesn't particularly sound like fun.

I better be able to pump resolve on my warrior and have a good warrior.

it should be good to emphasize resolve because concentration prevents you from playing hit reactions when you take damage and any action can be interrupted.

Con and res, the tankiest of tanks.

The downside of high-res enemies is the Bethbryo effect where you're mostly whiffing through air. Oh well.

when we have occluding walls like that i ask the artists and designers to pull the walk mesh up so you can't really get too far under the occluding area. that helps prevent things from dropping back there. i also tell everyone to not place any objects or creatures behind occluding pixels because it's really obnoxious.

Josh: A million and one. Fallout: Zero.

 

[Minttunator]

In this pickpocketing with a roll case, what if the game saves the roll? So, if you try, fail and reload to try again you'll get the same roll. I think the new xcom did something similar and it kinda prevented savescumming.

Yeah, something like this could work. I don't know about the new XCOM, but Eschalon Book II has an option to set the seed used for the random number generator at the start of the game. This option was used there to prevent players reloading to get better loot from chests, etc - but a similar system could probably also be used to give the same result every time for skill checks under the same circumstances. I.e. character X pickpocketing NPC Y with a skill level of Z will give the same result every time.

Whether or not that's a good idea is a different question. Personally I don't think developers should go out of their way to prevent savescumming. If players want to do it, they should be able to - and if they don't, then they don't have to. If the devs are wasting any time at all on a system like this, it should probably be an option presented to the player at the start of the game - like in the aforementioned Eschalon title.

 

[aleph]

I still don't get why single player crpgs have to be designed to take obsessive reloaders into account. People who have to reload every time they don't get the perfect outcome are usually also those who whine that games are too hard if save-scumming is not an option. I mean why design a super save-scumming resistant game and in the process destroy the fun for players like to have to deal with bad consequences?

Why not put more time into designing a good system which offers negative consequences and multiple ways to deal with them. Like, for example, if the player character gets caught stealing enough times, he gets branded a thief and has to avoid guards but this also opens up a way into the criminal underground of the city, or something like this. Why can't time be spent on designing something like this and not on worrying that somebody, somewhere, somehow could play the game wrong?

Same is true with Saywer's balance fetish. Omg, someone build a sub-optimal party. So what? Just offer an easy difficulty setting for such people.

I get the feeling that PE is going to be mainly the crpg for people who actually do not like playing crpgs, but would rather be playing a nicely balanced strategy/skirmish game or would rather be reading a book (no save scumming there)

tl,dnr version: why must PE be designed to cater to people who do not like playing crpgs, and cannot be designed to be a good crpg?

 

[Infinitron]

People who have to reload every time they don't get the perfect outcome are usually also those who whine that games are too hard if save-scumming is not an option.

Those aren't the only people who reload every time. One of them is quoted in your sig.

I mean why design a super save-scumming resistant game and in the process destroy the fun for players like to have to deal with bad consequences?

You can still have bad consequences without save scumming, they're just not random.

Random lockpicking: "My lockpick randomly broke, I can't open this door, FUCK"
Deterministic lockpicking: "I'm not skilled enough at lockpocking to open this door, FUCK"

Same bad consequences, but with no savescumming.

Most randomized mechanics can be converted this way without changing them much, except perhaps for super high level mass killing wizard spells, which need to be nerfed somewhat.

All of this has nothing to do with why pickpocketing isn't being implemented in this game, though.

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

Make pickpocketing win button. As soon as thief in party is within range of npcs, click button and steal everything including the clothes off the back of npcs. Most fun ever.

 

[SCO]

Is that a Arcanum dig?

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

Nah, I've never played Arcanum (not a fan of steampunk).

It's more a comment on save-scumming, no one wants to fail... The problem is failure consequences vs success, success being more appealing. If only it was less appealing, like having to take a hit to morality, sanity, self-esteem, alignment or stats like HP.

Only way I can think of reducing save-scumming is to have a check against stealth, as well as pickpocketing. Correct me if I'm wrong for assuming that stealth checks aren't done whilst pickpocketing in games...

If stealth check fails, and nothing was pickpocketed then the npc could warn the pc away.

If stealth check fails, and something was pickpocketed then the npc could summon the guard.

If stealth check succeeds, and nothing was pickpocketed then the pc could try again or walk away.

If stealth check succeeds, and something was pickpocketed then the pc could try again or walk away.

With high enough stealth, the player could go around failing or succeeding their pickpocket checks. Pretty much a win button, but at least it would reduce save scumming some...

 

[Akratus]

Isn't save scumming only a problem with percentage based systems? I mean, if you just have a hard check for your thievery skill and stealth level, you can't keep redoing it untill you succeed.

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

Unless you were to use a potion or item or something that enhanced your pickpocketing and/or stealth ability.

 

[Akratus]

Still wouldn't require savescumming.

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

I think I'm following you, but what about the negative consequences of failing?

Or is reloading after failure not considered a form of savescumming?

Edit: I checked the definition of savescumming. Now I understand.

 

[aleph]

You can still have bad consequences without save scumming, they're just not random.

Random lockpicking: "My lockpick randomly broke, I can't open this door, FUCK"
Deterministic lockpicking: "I'm not skilled enough at lockpocking to open this door, FUCK"

Same bad consequences, but with no savescumming.

Most randomized mechanics can be converted this way without changing them much, except perhaps for super high level mass killing wizard spells, which need to be nerfed somewhat.

All of this has nothing to do with why pickpocketing isn't being implemented in this game, though.

Using such deterministic mechanics has the drawback that you can run into situations where a character fails an activity because he is one skill point short. If the game is not carefully designed and the player has no way of knowing before hand how hard skill checks will be, this will lead the situation where only extremely specialized characters are successful. Because spreading out skill points into to many skills will lead to characters who can do nothing. They are not just bad or mediocre at many things, but completely useless at everything.

Making a game with the above mentioned kind of skill checks requires extremely good design or you end up with extremely limiting gameplay. Or the skill checks end up being so easy that everybody can do everything, which is the other unwanted extreme. If you allow for randomness, this gets all a bit easier, the system will probably be harder to balance, but allows more freedom for the player, who then can create characters who e.g. have sacrificed 100% success in one skill for 50% in two different skills.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Random lockpicking: "My lockpick randomly broke, I can't open this door, FUCK"

Why no savescumming here? If you're a dirty savescummer who doesn't know how games are supposed to be played why wouldn't you reload until the lockpick wouldn't beak?

Most randomized mechanics can be converted this way without changing them much

No, most randomized mechanics need to made completely non-randomized so they're completely immune to savescum.

Same bad consequences, but with no savescumming.

No, not the same, and who the fuck cares? Is there a standard that says that savescumming immune games are better? Do you need it to stop you from savescumming? What exactly?

but allows more freedom for the player,

But freedom is bad cuz balance and balance is what everything must strive for, obviously.

Planting explosives on someone in Fallout? Charming someone in Arcanum and stealing their armour? Unbalanced, savescummy, must be removed because some faggots somehow think balance makes everything better.

 

[aleph]

But freedom is bad cuz balance and balance is what everything must strive for, obviously.

You are right, how presumptuous of me to think it is possible to have fun with an unbalanced game. Or, even worse, think it might be allowed to play a game that, dare I say it, contains degenerate gameplay.

Good that Sawyer is there to prevent everyone from having fun the wrong way.

 

[Hormalakh]

some of the shit said here is just too retarded to respond to. if you think josh sawyer is fixing degenerate gameplay because he doesn't want you to have fun the wrong way, you're as retarded as they come.

his ideas might not be perfect, but he's trying to solve some of the biggest issues that existed in any decent rpg.

 

[aleph]

his ideas might not be perfect, but he's trying to solve some of the biggest issues that existed in any decent rpg.

please list these issues

 

[FeelTheRads]

please list these issues

Anything that Sawyer doesn't like, basically. Did you know for example that not being able to pick up every single piece of loot without going back to town is really really degenerate? Well, now you can teleport your items straight to your stash.
Of course, I'm being facetious, supposedly it's degenerate that people go back to town to carry everything and this will stop it...... by giving them a streamline (as it were) straight to the stash. Mr. Fix-It D-Generation Killer.

Anyway, I don't actually know who was bothered by all this degenerate gameplay that suddenly is in all games ever made and only Sawyer can fix, but I don't really give a shit. I maintain that it's the new bullshit of the "game-design school", where all games have to be a certain way and follow certain rules otherwise they don't fit in the curriculum.

And yes, he's also trying to fix some actual issues, but the most he can do is concoct some minigame to replace a mechanic or straight out copy from MMOs. Great fucking designer indeed.

 

[Visperas]

 

[Infinitron]

Planting explosives on someone in Fallout? Charming someone in Arcanum and stealing their armour?

I do not know whether Pillars of Eternity will in fact allow you to do such things or not, but it should be said that restricting this type of Dishonored-style free-form "environment hacking" probably has less to do with "balance" than it does with controlling the game's scope.

 

[Roguey]

Josh isn't even "removing" those features since they never existed in the IE games.

When you killed shopkeepers, their inventory vanished. Because that behavior breaks the game.

 

[Lhynn]

When you killed shopkeepers, their inventory vanished. Because that behavior breaks the game.

And... Who gives a shit?

 

[Hormalakh]

Anything that Sawyer doesn't like, basically. Did you know for example that not being able to pick up every single piece of loot without going back to town is really really degenerate? Well, now you can teleport your items straight to your stash.
Of course, I'm being facetious, supposedly it's degenerate that people go back to town to carry everything and this will stop it...... by giving them a streamline (as it were) straight to the stash. Mr. Fix-It D-Generation Killer.

Anyway, I don't actually know who was bothered by all this degenerate gameplay that suddenly is in all games ever made and only Sawyer can fix, but I don't really give a shit. I maintain that it's the new bullshit of the "game-design school", where all games have to be a certain way and follow certain rules otherwise they don't fit in the curriculum.

And yes, he's also trying to fix some actual issues, but the most he can do is concoct some minigame to replace a mechanic or straight out copy from MMOs. Great fucking designer indeed.

i'm not going to rehash everything that's been said here for the past 1000-some odd pages. If you can't be bothered to follow along, don't expect me to bring you up to speed.

And anyone who's seen enough of the conversation here knows that most people, at least I, don't necessarily agree with everything Josh has said or done, but a lot of times the issues that he's had are issues that a lot of people have had with the IE games. His implementations might not be perfect, but enough times, they're better than what it was before. If not that, at least they're different.

To believe that everything about the IE games and the system it was trying to implement (D&D) was perfection is to be completely blind, moronic, or both.

 

[Utgard-Loki]

Because that behavior breaks the game.

you know, these are strangely aerodynamic. like thy were _designed_ to be thrown at people.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

... the most he can do is concoct some minigame to replace a mechanic or straight out copy from MMOs.

He is more into copy pasta from MOBAs.

 

[Brzęczyszczykiewicz]

... the most he can do is concoct some minigame to replace a mechanic or straight out copy from MMOs.

He is more into copy pasta from MOBAs.

MOBAs are end game of evolution for mainstream mmo.