Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Lhynn]

MOBAs are end game of evolution for mainstream mmo.

Only if you are a unimaginative twat.

 

[felipepepe]

Josh isn't even "removing" those features since they never existed in the IE games.

When you killed shopkeepers, their inventory vanished. Because that behavior breaks the game.

A good designer would keep the world logic and find a way to punish the players from doing so, with strong bad consequences or really hard fights. Hell, the shopkeeper casting sanctuary or teleporting away would be acceptable.

Breaking the game's logic to avoid player's abusing the system just mean you have a bad system.

 

[aleph]

And anyone who's seen enough of the conversation here knows that most people, at least I, don't necessarily agree with everything Josh has said or done, but a lot of times the issues that he's had are issues that a lot of people have had with the IE games. His implementations might not be perfect, but enough times, they're better than what it was before. If not that, at least they're different.

That is exactly what one would expect from a spiritual successor to the IE games, to be completely different in many aspects. You are right, makes perfect sense...

 

[Blaine]

That is exactly what one would expect from a spiritual successor to the IE games, to be completely different in many aspects. Your are right, makes perfect sense...

In the minds of the faithful, Josh will fix all the "mistakes" of his predecessors—and absolutely not even a single new problem will emerge as a result of such sweeping changes. Thus, the perfect cRPG will have been created.

This is what Roguey actually believes, and what some others believe as well, though usually not as fervently. I believe that for nearly every "mistake" fixed, another will pop up in its place, since there's no such thing as perfect game design. None of the "mistakes" at issue are clear errors, such as a misspelled word, that obviously can and should be fixed, providing pure benefit—they are design decisions that Josh believes were "wrong."

I'm pretty sure I had this conversation thousands of posts ago. The thread is itself a Pillar of Eternity, Jesus Christ.

 

[aleph]

In the minds of the faithful, Josh will fix all the "mistakes" of his predecessors—and absolutely not even a single new problem will emerge as a result of such sweeping changes. Thus, the perfect cRPG will have been created.

This is what Roguey actually believes, and what some others believe as well, though usually not as fervently. I believe that for nearly every "mistake" fixed, another will pop up in its place, since there's no such thing as perfect game design. None of the "mistakes" at issue are clear errors, such as a misspelled word, that obviously can and should be fixed, providing pure benefit—they are design decisions that Josh believes were "wrong."

I guess a lot of people will face major disappointment when PE is released and the great design of Sawyer turns out to be not that great.

I'm pretty sure I had this conversation thousands of posts ago. The thread is itself a Pillar of Eternity, Jesus Christ.

It's kinda fitting

 

[Roguey]

And... Who gives a shit?

Bioware and Black Isle and nearly every RPG developer ever. Players too.

Additionally, players typically respond well to difficulty that moves on a "rollercoaster" over the course of the game. If a single weapon or set of weapons allows the player to crest and effectively coast through rest of the game, it's often a less enjoyable experience.

Games like Arcanum are unique in how everything certain shopkeepers have exists in the world for you to burglarize, but this is a symptom of why Arcanum is one of the least enjoyable games to play.

A good designer would keep the world logic and find a way to punish the players from doing so, with strong bad consequences or really hard fights. Hell, the shopkeeper casting sanctuary or teleporting away would be acceptable.

Breaking the game's logic to avoid player's abusing the system just mean you have a bad system.

So you're saying there are no good designers ever? I thought that was my schtick.

All shopkeepers being spell-casters wouldn't fit a lot of settings and whether or not they can cast spells or have a group of guards that can pound you into the ground regardless of your level it brings up the question of "So why is anything a threat to them? Why do people need you?"

Abstractions. Deal with 'em.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Games like Arcanum are unique in how everything certain shopkeepers have exists in the world for you to burglarize, but this is a symptom of why Arcanum is one of the least enjoyable games to play one of the (many) reasons why Arcanum is one of the most enjoyable games to play

Here, fixed it for you.

Breaking into shops during the night to steal stuff/money was one of the best things about Arcanum.

 

[Volrath]

Josh Sawyer is about to make you his bitch.

 

[Roguey]

It's a novelty that gets old quickly.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Why is everyone commenting in this thread if they obviously dislike Sawyer and everything he stands for?

 

[dunno lah]

Same reason why Bioware threads in the Codex have over 100 pages.

 

[J_C]

Why is everyone commenting in this thread if they obviously dislike Sawyer and everything he stands for?

Because regardless of Sawyer, we are interested in the game duuuhhh...

 

[Blaine]

Why is everyone commenting in this thread if they obviously dislike Sawyer and everything he stands for?

Josh Sawyer isn't the sole member of the development team, and disagreeing with portions of his approach to game design is quite different than disliking him or doubting his general competence. Disliking him personally is irrelevant in any case, so long as he gets the job done.

You and the rest of the Josh Sawyer Defense Posse might prefer to mosey on down that old dusty trail back to RPG Watch or the Obsidian forums if your dogies are so easily rustled.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Josh Sawyer isn't the sole member of the development team, and disagreeing with portions of his approach to game design is quite different than disliking him or doubting his general competence. Disliking him personally is irrelevant in any case, so long as he gets the job done.

You and the rest of the Josh Sawyer Defense Posse might prefer to mosey on down that old dusty trail back to RPG Watch or the Obsidian forums if your dogies are so easily rustled.

When did I become a part Josh Sawyer defense squad? That probably just happened from one sentence.

 

[DeepOcean]

Why is everyone commenting in this thread if they obviously dislike Sawyer and everything he stands for?

You didn't read the thread then, most people are bored waiting for more substantial information about the game and are: killing time nitpicking anything any Obsidian employee writes on twitter, going on their favorite rants or being trolled by Roguey. Sawyer is the only one that write about game design in public forums at Obsidian so he is the one that is going to be most criticized. Most people that aren't evidently trolling show deslike to some of his ideas and not at his person and any idea that come from him, mainly that "no retard shouldn't be left behind." idea that isn't popular.

 

[Metatron]

Why is everyone commenting in this thread if they obviously dislike Sawyer and everything he stands for?

The Roguey-effect.

 

[DeepOcean]

Why is everyone commenting in this thread if they obviously dislike Sawyer and everything he stands for?

The Roguey-effect.

I wouldn't be surprised if half of this thread was the result of butthurt from Roguey's trolling.

 

[Lhynn]

And... Who gives a shit?

Bioware and Black Isle and nearly every RPG developer ever.

players dont care about breaking their own single player game once they have gotten tired of doing whats expected of them.
Every crpg dev ever is a bit extensive, can you quote them on that?

 

[Roguey]

players dont care about breaking their own single player game once they have gotten tired of doing whats expected of them.

They can use cheats then.

Every crpg dev ever is a bit extensive, can you quote them on that?

Make a list of every RPG that allows you to kill nearly ever shopkeeper and take everything they had to offer. Then find the ratio of that to RPGs that don't.

 

[Lhynn]

players dont care about breaking their own single player game once they have gotten tired of doing whats expected of them.

They can use cheats then.

Every crpg dev ever is a bit extensive, can you quote them on that?

Make a list of every RPG that allows you to kill nearly ever shopkeeper and take everything they had to offer. Then find the ratio of that to RPGs that don't.

Shit, thats easy. around 99.9999999% of the rpgs ever played fit into that category.
Heck, in every story i have ever directed that had any kind of merchant you could do it, provided you were prepared enough. And cRPGs in general are supposed to be an imitation of real RPGs, real rpgs being PnP ones, so yeah, shit on top of more shit to keep players from doing stuff is SHIT.

I dont want to cheat, i want to put my sword on the blacksmiths neck, make him give me that beautiful sword he made, and i shouldnt because it breaks the single player game that i and only i am playing? Fuck that noise.

 

[Thane Solus]

how the hell this thread has 1073 pages? Really? 1073 for a few screenshots and a few Dev QAs?

Roguey did you trolled these guys for 1073 pages?

Anyway, i pledged for most of the crpgs coming this year and next year, but after seeing Divinity Gameplay, well that was a huge pleasant surprise, BlackGuard too, and Underrail its incredible for a solo dev. Stiil i hope Wasteland 2, Eternity and Torment go as well or better. Now should i troll about that in the next 1000 pages too? I love the some of the things Brian Fargo did or said, but ill wait until the release for the BJ lol.

 

[Toll]

The AOE+ INT thing is easy to fix.

Spells, at least some, shouldn't be locked into direct or AOE.
For instance Fireball vs Fireblast. Why not have it the same spell. The amount of damage it does is modified by level/int/whatever. You choose a target location such as the ground or a NPC, then you can choose to expand the AOE from single target to large area, with the damage the spell does inversely proportional to the area you cover.
Want to clear some trash mobs quickly? Big area, low damage fireball. Want to roast an NPC without hurting your buddies near-by? Single target fireblast into his chest.
OR

Have it so fireball has a standard radius of 3. With higher levels and higher int you can modify that radius up or down, so you can do single target damage or larger target, again damage inversely proportional to area.

This way it gives various spells more utility and more tactical choices for the player.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Toll

The game isn't glorious Turn Based. It becomes too micro mangey in RTwP...where each time you want cast AoE you will have to pause and fiddle. Also companion AI for that could be problem (again not TB).
Similar Reason why weapons doing multiple damage types (say smashing and piercing) automatically select whichever damage type will do more damage instead of selecting attack types like in say Age of Decadence.

It will be difficult to and confusing to retarded casuals new players if same spell can do say 10d6 + bonus% damage to a single target or 7d6 + bonus% damage to an aoe of 3 m radius or 5d6 + bonus% damage to an aoe of 3.5 m radius.

Idea seems to have lot of potential for fun though too complex for RTwP.

Edit: The point for int bonus to aoe is not to scale damage with aoe

 

[Grunker]

Not that Chaotic_Heretic isn't making a bad case as usual, but I kindda-sortta agree. I've been replaying Baldur's Gate lately, and even using the one or two actives of my Kensai/Archer/Blade is annoying and something I only do for very important fights.

IE-combat is chiefly about managing some spell choices with the casters and target choices with auto-attackers. I can't even begin to wonder how tedious Baldur's Gate would be if I had to use those actives in every fight. My biggest feat concerning PoE is how playable RTwP will be when everyone has important active abilities. I cross my fingers, but I fear the worst.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Not that Chaotic_Heretic isn't making a bad case as usual, but I kindda-sortta agree. I've been replaying Baldur's Gate lately, and even using the one or two actives of my Kensai/Archer/Blade is annoying and something I only do for very important fights.

IE-combat is chiefly about managing some spell choices with the casters and target choices with auto-attackers. I can't even begin to wonder how tedious Baldur's Gate would be if I had to use those actives in every fight. My biggest feat concerning PoE is how playable RTwP will be when everyone has important active abilities. I cross my fingers, but I fear the worst.

Well, there is a living (undead?) proof of how annoying that can be. Aarklash Legacy where we need to pause in every goddamn 10 seconds... and there isn't many abilities just 4 party member at once with 4 abilities.
Couldn't able to finish it just because of this, got really boring after a while.

Edit:
At least we have some choiecs in PE, like making characters with mostly passive skills. Probably I'll "decorate" my figthers and barbarians like this.