Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Grunker]

I wasn't really that fond of Freedom Force either. I *loved* the concept, but the controls got pretty annoying when abilities ramped up.

 

[Hobz]

Grunker I also find it tedious to micro-manage every units as I would for mages in ie games but that comes from the fact that I don't like to spam pause.

In PoE I can see myself hardly ever pause the game and still use active skills on my melees because of the slow motion system.

I really hope it'll be a better way to play those games than what we've experienced so far.

Edit : Fuck you Tapatalk and your signature

 

[Grunker]

The slow motion system as a solution is Infinitron's hope as well. I hope you're right.

 

[Roguey]

Shit, thats easy. around 99.9999999% of the rpgs ever played fit into that category.

No.

Heck, in every story i have ever directed that had any kind of merchant you could do it, provided you were prepared enough.

In all the tabletop games I played, buying equipment was an abstracted thing we'd do before the session started so there were no merchants to kill.

And cRPGs in general are supposed to be an imitation of real RPGs, real rpgs being PnP ones,

No.

I dont want to cheat, i want to put my sword on the blacksmiths neck, make him give me that beautiful sword he made, and i shouldnt because it breaks the single player game that i and only i am playing? Fuck that noise.

"I want to cheat but with the illusion that I'm not cheating."

 

[Wizfall]

The key to avoid a a micro managing hell is the formation system.
If the formation system is good (don't have to select and move personally every character during a fight, just the formation and switch it if needed), if you can easily keep a formation in battle (and that the formation is effective) it would be manageable.
It's the big improvement over IE combat that i hope.
Having to manage individually both the positioning of each characters and all the special individual active skills would be a nightmare IMO.

 

[Cyberarmy]

The key to avoid a a micro managing hell is the formation system.
If the formation system is good (don't have to select and move personally every character during a fight, just the formation and switch it if needed), if you can easily keep a formation in battle (and that the formation is effective) it would be manageable.
It's the big improvement over IE combat that i hope.
Having to manage individually both the positioning of each characters and all the special individual active skills would be a nightmare IMO.

With some minor scripts that let physical damage dealers continue attacking next target without orders. IE games and DA:O are OK-ish(standart attack)in this part where NWN2 fails mostly.

 

[AMG]

It will be annoying, slow motion or not, but I doubt it will be a big problem. Dragon Age: Origins had a bunch of actives on every class and I don't think it ever got too obnoxious. Never heard too much complains about that either. But majority of DAO was trash fights where there isn't really a need to pause at all, and even if somebody was downed, there was no need to go through tedious resurrection->pick up items->equip bla bla. Also no permadeaths. So in the end how much micromangaing there will be is dependant on skills, content and other game systems.

Still this exact problem is the reason why I was always baffled at the fighters have no special abilites complaints in BG. Since you need to tell your mages/clerics/druids what to do every round, having to do the same for fighters would be aggravating. Hell, I never bothered with backstabbing simply because it was too damn annoying. When you have a Real Time battle system with 6 characters it is kinda good idea to have some low maintenance classes.

 

[Grunker]

True, DA:O does fine with a range of tactical options for all classes. Though PoE will maybe have more.

 

[Wizfall]

The key to avoid a a micro managing hell is the formation system.
If the formation system is good (don't have to select and move personally every character during a fight, just the formation and switch it if needed), if you can easily keep a formation in battle (and that the formation is effective) it would be manageable.
It's the big improvement over IE combat that i hope.
Having to manage individually both the positioning of each characters and all the special individual active skills would be a nightmare IMO.

With some minor scripts that let physical damage dealers continue attacking next target without orders. IE games and DA:O are OK-ish(standart attack)in this part where NWN2 fails mostly.

It was awful in IE game, almost impossible to protect your wizard/cleric for example inside a formation.
It was a mess.

 

[Grunker]

The key to avoid a a micro managing hell is the formation system.
If the formation system is good (don't have to select and move personally every character during a fight, just the formation and switch it if needed), if you can easily keep a formation in battle (and that the formation is effective) it would be manageable.
It's the big improvement over IE combat that i hope.
Having to manage individually both the positioning of each characters and all the special individual active skills would be a nightmare IMO.

With some minor scripts that let physical damage dealers continue attacking next target without orders. IE games and DA:O are OK-ish(standart attack)in this part where NWN2 fails mostly.

It was awful in IE game, almost impossible to protect your wizard/cleric for example inside a formation.
It was a mess.

Sawyer said the formation system looks like ToEE's system. That system was no mess. Best formation system in any game, ever.

 

[Roguey]

Still this exact problem is the reason why I was always baffled at the fighters have no special abilites complaints in BG. Since you need to tell your mages/clerics/druids what to do every round, having to do the same for fighters would be aggravating. Hell, I never bothered with backstabbing simply because it was too damn annoying. When you have a Real Time battle system with 6 characters it is kinda good idea to have some low maintenance classes.

The idea is that you should be able to play lower maintenance casters and higher maintenance weapon-classes.

 

[Rake]

Still this exact problem is the reason why I was always baffled at the fighters have no special abilites complaints in BG. Since you need to tell your mages/clerics/druids what to do every round, having to do the same for fighters would be aggravating. Hell, I never bothered with backstabbing simply because it was too damn annoying. When you have a Real Time battle system with 6 characters it is kinda good idea to have some low maintenance classes.

The idea is that you should be able to play lower maintenance casters and higher maintenance weapon-classes.

Except casters can't be completely passive, even with Sawyer's system. He has said as much. So "lower maintenance" casters will still be p. active.

 

[MicoSelva]

DA:O's system was obnoxious, with constant cycling between characters and micro managing active abilities on MMO-style cooldowns. The worst thing about it was the mindlessness. You just clicked on the ability that had just become active again, no thinking involved.

And like this for three minutes.

And then it was time for the next trash mob.

 

[Grunker]

DA:O's system was obnoxious, with constant cycling between characters and micro managing active abilities on MMO-style cooldowns. The worst thing about it was the mindlessness. You just clicked on the ability that had just become active again, no thinking involved.

1) No. The tactics-system was sufficient so that even on Nightmare, characters could control themselves in trash fights.

2) Stamina and Mana reserves were so low you couldn't just spam abilities every time it was off cooldown. That is straight up bullshit. The problem here was Potion-making-abuse, which was sadly unbalanced. If you played the game without crafting 6000 mana and stamina potions, there was no ability-spam except when you used your reserves of potions in key fights. Even then, often you wanted to keep shield-fighters in modes and not use too many actives, and two-weapon fighters and archers were self-governing even in key fights, mostly.

 

[Roguey]

Except casters can't be completely passive, even with Sawyer's system. He has said as much. So "lower maintenance" casters will still be p. active.

Not necessarily. My casters were usually slinging stones and darts. It's not necessary to cast spells in every fight or even most, especially when you have other abilities to use.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

There were no stamina potions in DAO. (only in Awakening) Best source of DPS was a dual wielder not using any abilities at all, except having a few sustained ones activated, like momentum. There was no need to craft health potions because you would loot more than you'd ever need. You just needed lots of mana potions for your mage(s) , because spells were too expensive mana-wise.

 

[MicoSelva]

Stamina and Mana reserves were so low you couldn't just spam abilities every time it was off cooldown. That is straight up bullshit. The problem here was Potion-making-abuse, which was sadly unbalanced. If you played the game without crafting 6000 mana and stamina potions, there was no ability-spam except when you used your reserves of potions in key fights. Even then, often you wanted to keep shield-fighters in modes and not use too many actives, and two-weapon fighters and archers were self-governing even in key fights, mostly.

Well, I've only played DA:O on release so my memory is probably more than a little murky, but I remember the fights being more or less as I described them. It may be my disappointment filter kicking in and showing me the game in worse light than it actually is, but that's how I remember it.
I've never done any crafting in that game, btw.

 

[Grunker]

Stamina and Mana reserves were so low you couldn't just spam abilities every time it was off cooldown. That is straight up bullshit. The problem here was Potion-making-abuse, which was sadly unbalanced. If you played the game without crafting 6000 mana and stamina potions, there was no ability-spam except when you used your reserves of potions in key fights. Even then, often you wanted to keep shield-fighters in modes and not use too many actives, and two-weapon fighters and archers were self-governing even in key fights, mostly.

Well, I've only played DA:O on release so my memory is probably more than a little murky, but I remember the fights being more or less as I described them. It may be my disappointment filter kicking in and showing me the game in worse light than it actually is, but that's how I remember it.
I've never done any crafting in that game, btw.

Trust me, there is no way in hell you just spammed things when they were off cooldown, unless you cheated. You pretty much live up to my prejudice towards people's aversions toward DA:O when you claim crap like that. I was disappointed in DA:O myself for various reasons, and I do think cooldowns hurt the system (honestly they weren't even that necessary mostly).

And like VentilatorOfDoom says, unless we're talking awakening, this goes double for fighting-type folk.

There were no stamina potions in DAO. (only in Awakening) Best source of DPS was a dual wielder not using any abilities at all, except having a few sustained ones activated, like momentum. There was no need to craft health potions because you would loot more than you'd ever need. You just needed lots of mana potions for your mage(s) , because spells were too expensive mana-wise.

Potion-crafting was outright broken in my DA:O-playthroughs, but then I don't read guides. As such, I didn't use any broken builds that could sustain themselves automatically without potions...

 

[MicoSelva]

Grunker Sorry, but saying that I am/was prejudiced towards DA:O is more than a little inaccurate. I was more hyped for this game than any other in last ten years (probably as much as I am hyped for PoE now), but it turned out to be a disappointment, also because of the combat system, which I remember as described - although I fully admit they may have become exaggerated with time. I probably just spammed abilities until my guys ran out of stamina or enemies died, with the latter usually happening first (I played on normal).

It's still on my to-play list, but quite low. Maybe when I finally try it for the second time, it will turn out that my memories are ill-colored, but I kind of doubt that.

There was good stuff about DA:O combat, though. I liked how attacking from the flank or the back was more efficient, for example. I can't remember anything else at the moment, though.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

So you guys are yourselves admitting RTwP is inherently shitty and tedious


and Grunker , you agree with the micro managing tediousness that accompanies too many abilities/options in RTwP but you get butthurt because I compare it with TB?

 

[Lhynn]

Shit, thats easy. around 99.9999999% of the rpgs ever played fit into that category.

No.

Heck, in every story i have ever directed that had any kind of merchant you could do it, provided you were prepared enough.

In all the tabletop games I played, buying equipment was an abstracted thing we'd do before the session started so there were no merchants to kill.

And cRPGs in general are supposed to be an imitation of real RPGs, real rpgs being PnP ones,

No.

I dont want to cheat, i want to put my sword on the blacksmiths neck, make him give me that beautiful sword he made, and i shouldnt because it breaks the single player game that i and only i am playing? Fuck that noise.

"I want to cheat but with the illusion that I'm not cheating."

- So you couldnt assault merchants on the road in your campaign? make a quick buck and get items you would need later down the line. Sounds like your DM was shit and im inclined to not count your experience in PnP as actual experience.

- Yes, good cRPGs have always been about offering a experience similar to the one you get in PnP, simply because of the fact that PnP is the ultimate RPG experience.

- Its not cheating you retarded fuck, its interacting with the world in a believable way.

 

[Grunker]

Its not cheating you retarded fuck, its interacting with the world in a believable way.

Yes. Adventureres slaughtering merchants wholesale to collect their stock, without immeadiate campaign-ending consequences, is totally believable. You pull such juvenile shit in my campaign, you're not just a bad player, you're out of the game.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Roving Armed Bands of Pillagers in pseudo medieval fantasy is believable.

Grunker , you dislike simulationism. What do you care what is believable?

 

[Grunker]

Grunker , you dislike simulationism.

For someone with such a massive hardon for GURPS... why do you hate simulationist approach to cRPG design?

Which part of being a simulationist is it that makes reading difficult?

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...project-eternity.75947/page-1059#post-3055514

I am not arguing against simulationism.

I am arguing against those who hold that it weighs more heavy than any other concern in system design. I am arguing against those who want an IE-successor to rely heavily on simulationism. Just like I would argue against people saying how there is not enough Basketball in their Soccer game.

Grunker enjoys a variety od different systems while most simulationists only see one true way (their own), that's why he picks on them (I think).

Bingo.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Let me rephrase it. Not the most coherent when I'm drunk.

Your dislike of stubborn simulationists as opposed to simulationism.

Your championing of Josh antics is what i meant broadly. like that retarded copy pasta arch which suddenly has a "lore" justification... probably made up on the spot.