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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
The earlier quotes were indications of little content-gating. Obviously as time has gone on they/we have discovered that won't be the case. I am fine with that though.

I am just saying that due to the above quote (which I finally found) I think that the game will have "regional progression".

Dyrford. Defiance Bay. Gilded Vale. Twin Elms. Perhaps there are more regions too.
 
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Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The scope of Torment: Tides of Numenera was also quietly downgraded a few months after it went into pre-production. The first generation of high profile Kickstarter-funded RPGs will not supply you with completely wide open worlds, so don't expect them (D:OS doesn't count)
 

deuxhero

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You do realize that Tutu, BGT and BG:EE seriously fuck up monster spawns (there are some fixes IIRC though)? In all my years of playing vanilla BG I don't remember ever running into dire wolves in that area.

They do? I'm amazed (well less so with EE...) 3 things can make the same fuck up and it is never fixed in multiple patches they have had.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
You do realize that Tutu, BGT and BG:EE seriously fuck up monster spawns (there are some fixes IIRC though)? In all my years of playing vanilla BG I don't remember ever running into dire wolves in that area.

They do? I'm amazed (well less so with EE...) 3 things can make the same fuck up and it is never fixed in multiple patches they have had.

Tutu and BGT couldn't fix it because it was hard-coded.
 

Rake

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:shrug: Never bothered me as i think "Fallout style" isn't the best fit for a storyfag game.
It's actually the best fit because the best story is one without mandatory railroading. Fallout has a much better story than Baldur's Gate, despite the latter's attempts at serious narration.
Are you sure this isn't because Bioware vs Black Isle writing? PS:T, KotOR 2 or MotB had attempts at narration as well, and all of them had better stories than Fallout.
Also, i'm not sure Fallout is the best example of a good story with an open world structure. I always found Arcanum's story better, even if i like Fallout more as a game.

inb4 Excidium "Fallout had a better RPG story than the visual novel that is Torment "
 

Athelas

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:shrug: Never bothered me as i think "Fallout style" isn't the best fit for a storyfag game.
It's actually the best fit because the best story is one without mandatory railroading. Fallout has a much better story than Baldur's Gate, despite the latter's attempts at serious narration.
Are you sure this isn't because Bioware vs Black Isle writing?
It's also because Fallout lets you actually role-play.

PS:T, KotOR 2 or MotB had attempts at narration as well, and all of them had better stories than Fallout.
I don't think those stories would be harmed with a more open structure.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I would say that if you take full advantage of a game's "openness" to "sequence break" and speedrun it in 15 minutes, then your experience of "story" is probably being harmed.

That is of course an extreme case, and the story could still be good if you don't do that, but there's an argument to be made that "extreme openness" is at best orthogonal to "good story".

Of course, "non-extreme" openness, AKA plot branching "C&C lite", is a different matter, and its beneficiality to interactive storytelling is not in dispute.
 

deuxhero

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You do realize that Tutu, BGT and BG:EE seriously fuck up monster spawns (there are some fixes IIRC though)? In all my years of playing vanilla BG I don't remember ever running into dire wolves in that area.

They do? I'm amazed (well less so with EE...) 3 things can make the same fuck up and it is never fixed in multiple patches they have had.

Tutu and BGT couldn't fix it because it was hard-coded.

How does the engine import break it in the first place?
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Well even BG:EE devs weren't able to get the spawns the same as BG1 Vanilla. They re-did the spawn system to compensate. So I think the question "how?" remains unanswered.
 

Xor

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Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
BG1 and BG2 handle spawns differently, so Tutu and BGT can't just directly import them and have to basically fill in the spawn data themselves. There are multiple mods for BGT that further revamp the spawn system to be closer to vanilla BG1 (off the top of my head BGTweaks and BGSpawn).
 

Rake

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PS:T, KotOR 2 or MotB had attempts at narration as well, and all of them had better stories than Fallout.
I don't think those stories would be harmed with a more open structure.
Nor do i. But more open structure =! completely open Fallout style. MotB handled it fine for the most part. I agree a more open structure is something to strive for and enhances the narrative, but only up to a point.
Further than that you get diminishing rerurns as far as story is concerned.
Of course you get other benefits, and if you are willing to sacrifice story in the altar of more openness, roleplaying etc. then that's a valid approach.
 
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:shrug: Never bothered me as i think "Fallout style" isn't the best fit for a storyfag game.
It's actually the best fit because the best story is one without mandatory railroading. Fallout has a much better story than Baldur's Gate, despite the latter's attempts at serious narration.
Are you sure this isn't because Bioware vs Black Isle writing?
It's also because Fallout lets you actually role-play.

PS:T, KotOR 2 or MotB had attempts at narration as well, and all of them had better stories than Fallout.
I don't think those stories would be harmed with a more open structure.

I suspect that PS:T and KoTOR 2 actually would be hurt by it - maybe MotB to a lesser extent. The plot would be untouched, but it would lose any control over the pacing, and the emotional beats and pacing of PS:T and KoTOR are critical to them working.

It's one reason why the FPS-rogs with a 'enclosed but non-linear and highly details maps' focus like Deus Ex and System Shock 1-2 work better at a story level than open-world FPS-rpgs, even when the base plot and characters aren't necessarily superior (also compare Arkham Asylum v Arkham City). Open-world, just like sandbox, should be a design choice, not a universal goal. It works well for some games, but there are also games that benefit from a smaller world. This doesn't mean an absence of C+C - there are types of choices that are actually made more effective by PS:T's narrower focus (I can't see any of the repeated questions about the nature of man, nor all the random conversations that drop bits of info initially occasionally and at seemingly random moments, then more and more often, then building to a crescendo just before the point where the 'background lore' raises its head in-game - the lead-up to Ravel in particular - having the same impact in a more open game).
 
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Duraframe300

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Nothing interesting but I scoped that Roby Atadero has moved to the PE team after the completion of South Park. Perhaps that Gameplay Demonstration Sawyer gave him was convincing (afaik he'd never played a game of this type before)

Roby Atadero - Gameplay/UI Programming (March 2014) - http://www.linkedin.com/pub/roby-atadero/3a/b5a/ab

Wait, didn't I post about this?

I've really let go.

Btw: You can look up some of Robs work/what hes done here
http://www.robyatadero.com
 

Copper

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I think the distinction is that different setting work better for different stories. Obvious, but worth considering. Planescape is a game about history, exploring the past (mis)deeds of your previous incarnations. Arcanum (and to a lesser extent Fallout) is also mostly about history, but it's the history of the world - your character is inconsequential in that historic big picture, despite the initial 'Nasrudin 2.0' set up. Generally, the later works better for situations where you have total character creation, since you have more freedom to define your character against the world. Torment doesn't work without a very specific protagonist, either, and Kotor 2 is based on the assumption that you are a very specific Jedi.

The more choice you give players in character creation, the more choices they should have in terms of how, where and why they engage with the world and the story needs to be kept accessible from multiple points of view and interpretations.
 

Hormalakh

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these people have no clue what-so-ever. Build a game that will probably last for 5-10 years (like WoW) but then place it on platforms like PS3/4, which pretty much change every 2 years. Then don't put it on the most resilient platform ever: the PC.

Clueless really.


apparently that's a 10-year budget for 4 games over that lifespan. so in reality, it's probably something like 100 mil for each game. stilll a lot of money.
 
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Abelian

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Build a game that will probably last for 5-10 years (like WoW) but then place it on platforms like PS3/4, which pretty much change every 2 years. Then don't put it on the most resilient platform ever: the PC.

Clueless really savvy: rinse, repeat.
FTFY
 

Hormalakh

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yeah i thought it was 500 mil for one game. apparently that's not the case. it's goign to be rinse/repeat every 2.5 years at 125 mil a game.
 

Hormalakh

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Infinitron, this is for you:
From jesawyer.tumblr.com
battelbrotha asked: You've said on occasion that you get inspiration from things you enjoy, however I know Chris Avellone said the except opposite that he gets inspiration from things he hates. Have the two of you ever butted heads over these two opposite approaches while making PE?

Not specifically, no. When anyone on the team suggests removing or dramatically changing something they don’t personally like, I ask them how removing that element will make the game more enjoyable for our intended audience overall. None of us are going to personally buy a hundred thousand copies of the game when it’s released, so we need to think of the audience at large first.

Here’s a story of something I don’t personally like: casino games. In real life, I really dislike casinos. Traditional casino games like roulette and most incarnations of blackjack are structured against the players and toward the house. They prey on the worst tendencies of human beings to misunderstand probability and become caught up in addictive behavior. I can’t stand them and never personally play them.

That said, as much as it was like stabbing a dagger in my heart, there was no way I could have directed a Fallout game set in Las Vegas, New Vegas, or another other Vegas and not had gambling mini-games. New Vegas’ gambling games are mostly biased toward the player (Luck generally adds straight into your chances, pushing them away from the house). They capture the enjoyable aspects of gambling (getting lucky, which is much easier than IRL, being given perks by the casino, etc.) and even hitting a casino’s limit and being booted out is presented with grudging respect.

People playing F:NV didn’t need me to “deconstruct” gambling or “turn it on its head”. Like successfully charging ten armed raiders while armed with a tire iron, sweeping through the casinos of New Vegas on a whirlwind lucky blackjack streak is part of the same unlikely fantasy. My personal loathing of casino gambling wasn’t — and isn’t — particularly important.

Sure, it’s ideal if all of the designers’ personal tastes and preferences align with those of their audience, but that’s never the case. There’s a threshold of dissonance beyond which you should probably recognize that you and your audience are way out of sync (e.g. I have such a fundamental dislike of the zombie and mafia sub-genres that I don’t think I could successfully work on media in them). For everything else, it’s about balancing your personal tastes with those of the different segments of your audience. You want to enjoy what you’re working on, but you want the audience to enjoy it as well (unless you’re just making it for yourself, in which case, go nuts).

For me, it often comes back to a basic principle of creative work: do whatever you want in life. Just don’t expect anyone to pay or respect you for it. If you can get away with being a 21st century Diego Rivera, awesome. Most people can’t and unfortunately many are shocked to discover this.

nikobolas asked: Hey Josh, Will there be attribute requirements for high-level skills and/or perks? Like if you have a low Dexterity are you locked out of upgrading your Mechanics skill (or is it just a bad/weird idea)?

Attributes are not currently being used as prerequisites for Talents. If we do wind up using Attributes in that way, we will almost certainly allow later access to the Talent based on a level threshold. E.g. a Talent that requires 13 Dexterity or 8th Level.

Attributes do not currently affect Skills in any way. Skills advance on a triangular progression, so specialists do not dramatically outstrip generalists. That said, classes do have inherent bonuses to skills that are not counted when calculating advancement, so those bonuses become especially valuable at the upper range of a skill.

ghoulishvisage asked: How are you guys approaching level design on PE? A common complaint in modern games is that it feels like you're being squeezed along a corridor.

When I see level block outs that don’t have branches, my first request is to open the level up more. My ideal dungeon environment has multiple entrances/exits and can be traversed on several circuits. Bobby is also sensitive to “corridor hell” and tries to make sure that our levels open up into a number of distinct rooms. A good mix of halls and rooms of various sizes with multiple points of ingress/egress promotes more interesting exploration and tactical options for the player.
 

Hormalakh

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also
silkvalley asked: Is there a distinction between weapon accuracy and spell accuracy? Does a wizard start with the same value for both? Bonus question: Hit points (stamina/health) -- will it be handled smiliarly to defenses and accuracy, classes start with different HP, but have a unified progression?

Characters have a base Accuracy that is modified by level, Dexterity, Talents, weapons, and a few other things. Wizard Accuracy is inherently low but most of their spells have a good bonus built in. So when a wizard is swinging a sword or zapping with a wand, their hit percentage is not very high. When they cast spells, their Accuracy total is much, much better.
 

Hormalakh

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math is fun. triangular progression for those of us who forgot it or never learned it. even as engineers.

http://www.mathsisfun.com/algebra/triangular-numbers.html

I hope their gUI for skill levels is shown exactly like that: in triangles where you stack up the points and everytime your triangle height increases by one, your level increases by one. Visual descriptions of things can help show things very quickly and are effective tools. Use them Obsidian.
 
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uaciaut

Augur
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Feb 18, 2013
Messages
505
yeah i thought it was 500 mil for one game. apparently that's not the case. it's goign to be rinse/repeat every 2.5 years at 125 mil a game.

That (125) split into 2 for Fargo and Sawyer would be more than enough to make a p fucking sweet game, idk why you think one would need 250mil for game, past a certain point it's just overkill and there's not much you can probably add that's meaningful.
 

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