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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

coffeetable

Savant
Joined
Dec 18, 2012
Messages
446
two tidbits incidentally related to pe
- nathan grayson is gone from rps
- dragon age has been pushed back to nov 18th
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
16,394
3 die 6 rolls for a nice distribution of possible rolls with the most common being 10 or 11. Making the average 10.5.

With 4d6 drop lowest you wind up with 13 being the most common result.

Going further into average roll results with 4d6 drop lowest for six attributes you typically wind up with:

16, 14, 13, 12, 10, and a 9.

Once you know those numbers you can then design a system that mimics those results via a point buy system. Usually point buy systems allow for that exact distribution or something very close to it. Then the game system balance is designed around those results.

From there the evolution of point-buy systems (which remove the randomness that many people dislike) wound up having, typically, 28 points to use or 25 points if it was a 'pathfinder' (in pathfinder the price of an attribute increase goes up as the attribute goes up so to go from 10 to 11 is one point to go from 11 to 12 is 2 points meaning that to raise from 10 to 12 is a total of 3 points) system which limited how low you could drop a stat in favour of extra stats.

And... from all of this we wind up with the attribute generation systems that we find in many games.

I get that this is D&D legacy. My point is that it was good simplification of system for people who don't have CPU for a brain that would need to calculate several things at same time in each part of turn, making it chore to play. But this is computer game, you don't need simplify math for people because CPU does all that complex stuff for you. I mean you can if you want take those points upon which for example attack is made and calculate it yourself but there is no point to it as CPU presents answer for that instantaneously. So you could increase complexity of system, creating more depth to it at same time making it easy to understand at basic level as player don't need to actually do the math but know what happens in good/bad result of changing those stats.

I don't think rolling dices for main stats for creating characters is best part of D&D. I mean sure it is part of roleplaying if we create character which is unknown to us and which will be only ruled by law of probability. Which means roll dice for character creation is only really needed when you don't want to create yourself character and leave it to statistics hoping you won't end up with completely bland character with 13 int trying to be a mage.

Sure there is something enticing about it from RP perspective and i do love to play like that from time to time but system itself could be easily reproduced (statistical probability of it) without using actual dices like for example creating system on inverted part of parabole which is moved to only +x,+y where x is for example stat from 1 to 10 and y is chance to get that stat. So like in roll dice case you would get mostly 4-6 where 1 or 10 would be very rare. With it you have clean system without weird fluctuations like 1-18 because that is best for dices not for actual gameplay.

I get that PoE is back to good old days of BG Torment and so on. But they can't use D&D and frankly people remember those games from D&D2,5e not 3,5 which by all acounts only ToEE get right (with problems). So they are creating game based on successful RPG from using completely different mechanics at core to their system which they base on later D&D which no game beside ToEE (which was turn based !!) got right.

And they have partially did what i wrote above with for example turns-rounds system compared to D&D.

Mind you this is not critique of system in PoE. I can't criticize it as i haven't played it yet. It\s more of opinion piece of how PnP RPG and cRPG world are different and how each of those worlds have both ups and downs. Namely PnP RPG world needs to simplify systems behind it because players can't spend 99% of their time doing math where due to our brains and lack of linearity GMs can create any scenario they wish, where cRPG can create deep gameplay system with complex math showing results to player instantaneously at a cost of flexibility and completely predetermined path/paths made by devs.

So my point of this piece is that with cRPG system designers should use those ups that power of CPU gives them. If you for example shoot in PnP you need to have very simplistic math because anything more than few stats to take into account would create complex string of actions that needs to be calculated where for example shooting in cRPG could take as many variables as it wants like wind speed, curvature of planet, mass of bullet, friction of air, temperature of air, rotation of bullet, and so on to deliver deep ballistic system which later can be translated into simple form of % to hit instantly and suddenly rising intelligence for sniper is valid as dude who has high int could better shoot at long distances, perception then can be used to determine if sniper can even see object at a distance. Or mage that draws power of magic via his stamina where for example his endurance is important to pool of stamina, strength is important to somatic elements of spells over long time, charisma to linguistic elements of spells, dexterity to complexity of somatic elements and thus very important for high level complex spells and so on and so forth.

So creating system in which all stats matter because you have instant result for every math calculation creates situation in which amount of specialization of classes rises exponentially without even need of abilities that changes rules that governs player character. Suddenly you can create mage that specializes in long battles a War Mage which has big reservoir of stamina for spells and high strength to cast somatic spells over long period of time hours or even days of battle. Or you can create mage that specializes in non somatic spells charisma driven at cost of type of spells he can use he can empower those above what is available to all rounder. Then you can add abilities, perks, traits, equipment and stuff and suddenly you have shit ton of various build you can explore for weeks, months or years which would never be available for PnP game due to finite amount of human patience to solving math problems when you are playing PnP.

Sorry for this Think-Thank dump.

edit:

It is also not only about main stats but about every system math problem involved like calculating armor, hp, actions, spell power and so on.
 
Last edited:

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
There is a thumbnail of an in-game area and it looks amazing.

2657891-poe.jpg


By the way, Perkel, all stats matter for all classes in PoE...though perhaps not in the way you imagined. :troll:
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
16,394
Let's see first if that is the case.

I imagine there will be some connections between stats but there will be dump stats in the end.
 

set

Arcane
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
944
http://qlcrew.com/ 25 minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm going to be mentally bouncing off the walls until tomorrow. :(
I like how they're looking at fuckin' Hearthstone when in the past they said they wouldn't QL f2p games because they didn't need it (they're fuckin' free afterall).
 

Doctor Sbaitso

SO, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR PROBLEMS.
Patron
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Messages
3,351
Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands
Oh look and area with a circular something as the focal point in the center... just like every other area.

Seriously what is up with that?
 

set

Arcane
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
944
3 die 6 rolls for a nice distribution of possible rolls with the most common being 10 or 11. Making the average 10.5.

With 4d6 drop lowest you wind up with 13 being the most common result.

Going further into average roll results with 4d6 drop lowest for six attributes you typically wind up with:

16, 14, 13, 12, 10, and a 9.

Once you know those numbers you can then design a system that mimics those results via a point buy system. Usually point buy systems allow for that exact distribution or something very close to it. Then the game system balance is designed around those results.

From there the evolution of point-buy systems (which remove the randomness that many people dislike) wound up having, typically, 28 points to use or 25 points if it was a 'pathfinder' (in pathfinder the price of an attribute increase goes up as the attribute goes up so to go from 10 to 11 is one point to go from 11 to 12 is 2 points meaning that to raise from 10 to 12 is a total of 3 points) system which limited how low you could drop a stat in favour of extra stats.

And... from all of this we wind up with the attribute generation systems that we find in many games.

I get that this is D&D legacy. My point is that it was good simplification of system for people who don't have CPU for a brain that would need to calculate several things at same time in each part of turn, making it chore to play. But this is computer game, you don't need simplify math for people because CPU does all that complex stuff for you. I mean you can if you want take those points upon which for example attack is made and calculate it yourself but there is no point to it as CPU presents answer for that instantaneously. So you could increase complexity of system, creating more depth to it at same time making it easy to understand at basic level as player don't need to actually do the math but know what happens in good/bad result of changing those stats.

I don't think rolling dices for main stats for creating characters is best part of D&D. I mean sure it is part of roleplaying if we create character which is unknown to us and which will be only ruled by law of probability. Which means roll dice for character creation is only really needed when you don't want to create yourself character and leave it to statistics hoping you won't end up with completely bland character with 13 int trying to be a mage.

Sure there is something enticing about it from RP perspective and i do love to play like that from time to time but system itself could be easily reproduced (statistical probability of it) without using actual dices like for example creating system on inverted part of parabole which is moved to only +x,+y where x is for example stat from 1 to 10 and y is chance to get that stat. So like in roll dice case you would get mostly 4-6 where 1 or 10 would be very rare. With it you have clean system without weird fluctuations like 1-18 because that is best for dices not for actual gameplay.

I get that PoE is back to good old days of BG Torment and so on. But they can't use D&D and frankly people remember those games from D&D2,5e not 3,5 which by all acounts only ToEE get right (with problems). So they are creating game based on successful RPG from using completely different mechanics at core to their system which they base on later D&D which no game beside ToEE (which was turn based !!) got right.

And they have partially did what i wrote above with for example turns-rounds system compared to D&D.

Mind you this is not critique of system in PoE. I can't criticize it as i haven't played it yet. It\s more of opinion piece of how PnP RPG and cRPG world are different and how each of those worlds have both ups and downs. Namely PnP RPG world needs to simplify systems behind it because players can't spend 99% of their time doing math where due to our brains and lack of linearity GMs can create any scenario they wish, where cRPG can create deep gameplay system with complex math showing results to player instantaneously at a cost of flexibility and completely predetermined path/paths made by devs.

So my point of this piece is that with cRPG system designers should use those ups that power of CPU gives them. If you for example shoot in PnP you need to have very simplistic math because anything more than few stats to take into account would create complex string of actions that needs to be calculated where for example shooting in cRPG could take as many variables as it wants like wind speed, curvature of planet, mass of bullet, friction of air, temperature of air, rotation of bullet, and so on to deliver deep ballistic system which later can be translated into simple form of % to hit instantly and suddenly rising intelligence for sniper is valid as dude who has high int could better shoot at long distances, perception then can be used to determine if sniper can even see object at a distance. Or mage that draws power of magic via his stamina where for example his endurance is important to pool of stamina, strength is important to somatic elements of spells over long time, charisma to linguistic elements of spells, dexterity to complexity of somatic elements and thus very important for high level complex spells and so on and so forth.

So creating system in which all stats matter because you have instant result for every math calculation creates situation in which amount of specialization of classes rises exponentially without even need of abilities that changes rules that governs player character. Suddenly you can create mage that specializes in long battles a War Mage which has big reservoir of stamina for spells and high strength to cast somatic spells over long period of time hours or even days of battle. Or you can create mage that specializes in non somatic spells charisma driven at cost of type of spells he can use he can empower those above what is available to all rounder. Then you can add abilities, perks, traits, equipment and stuff and suddenly you have shit ton of various build you can explore for weeks, months or years which would never be available for PnP game due to finite amount of human patience to solving math problems when you are playing PnP.

Sorry for this Think-Thank dump.

edit:

It is also not only about main stats but about every system math problem involved like calculating armor, hp, actions, spell power and so on.

There's a problem. I agree that CPU means you can have more complex rules, but at the end of the day players need to play with those rules. If your game rules are obtuse, it's difficult for a player to perform:

Attribute comparisons (Do I become a STR warrior or an AGI warrior?)
Item comparisons (Do I pick up an item that is +1 STR, +3 AGI or +3 AGI, +10 HP?)
Long-term planning (Does my damage scale into the late game? What happens against high armor opponents? What happens if I don't get enough hit chance for the late game?)

If you make comparisons and calculations complex, you're asking humans to play your game in one window, Excel opened in the other. It can work for MP games, because this information is disseminated rapidly to players by other players, but not in a SP game.

I would say, leverage a simple attribute system -- always. The attribute system is core to the entire game. The CPU is great because it hand juggle lots of stuff at once, allowing for more mechanics than PnP can usually offer --- but we still need to keep mechanics and calculations human-readable whever possible.

A 0 to 20 range of attributes is pretty good, because if you have 5 attributes that means 50 degrees of freedom - (It's good to start out with assuming players get a maximum of 50% of the points it would require to maximize every attribute, and then to slowly tweak down from there to find the ideal attribute spread for builds and items). If you add a sixth attribute and keep the cap at 50 points, you're straining things just enough that players can specialize in one or two attributes, or go evenly spread across the board, this is a pretty good strategy, as it's tough to design an RPG to handle players performing 3-4 stat specializations at the same time (it's easy to build a game around STR, INT, AGI, END and STR/INT, STR/AGI, AGI/INT, etc. but not so much when players can reliably specialize in STR/INT/END, STR/AGI/END, etc. - this becomes too cumbersome to support in unique ways).

Then again, World of Darkness's attribute system is quite different from D&D's, and it works. But I'd say it works because it's designed around exponential costs and exponential gains, meaning, it limits specialization, rewards specialization, and allows some degree of balanced characters to be created.

Critically, it's important to make it easy to design character concepts around their stats. A STR/INT character maybe a zealous arcane warrior, A STR/AGI a typical brute or maybe a blacksmith or ranger, A WIS/STR a paladin, A WIS/AGI a ranger or a crafter, An AGi/INT a rogue-mage hybrid, etc. It's more amorphous when you let players define their class's strengths to be too broad - you get Skyrim syndrome, where you're a Wizard-Knight-Thief-Who-Just-Doesn't-Use-Bows-But-Does-Everything-Else-Fine.
 
Last edited:

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,878
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Oh look and area with a circular something as the focal point in the center... just like every other area.

Seriously what is up with that?

Asset re-use and likely something to do with Engwithan architecture - all of which has been circular based.

BG2 had A LOT of circle style rooms and maps as well.
 

dukeofwhales

Cipher
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
423
http://qlcrew.com/ 25 minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm going to be mentally bouncing off the walls until tomorrow. :(
I like how they're looking at fuckin' Hearthstone when in the past they said they wouldn't QL f2p games because they didn't need it (they're fuckin' free afterall).

Hearthstone is free money for video makers. Even the most banal of videos from well known makers gets hundreds of thousands of views. TotalBuscuit has said that the only reason he keeps making Hearthstone videos is that it makes him so much money for barely any effort.
 

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
You're cheering for PoE to have shitty writing/narration?

They already confirmed it will have a narrator.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
16,394
There's a problem. I agree that CPU means you can have more complex rules, but at the end of the day players need to play with those rules. If your game rules are obtuse, it's difficult for a player to perform:

Attribute comparisons (Do I become a STR warrior or an AGI warrior?)
Item comparisons (Do I pick up an item that is +1 STR, +3 AGI or +3 AGI, +10 HP?)
Long-term planning (Does my damage scale into the late game? What happens against high armor opponents? What happens if I don't get enough hit chance for the late game?)

If you make comparisons and calculations complex, you're asking humans to play your game in one window, Excel opened in the other. It can work for MP games, because this information is disseminated rapidly to players by other players, but not in a SP game.

I would say, leverage a simple attribute system -- always. The attribute system is core to the entire game. The CPU is great because it hand juggle lots of stuff at once, allowing for more mechanics than PnP can usually offer --- but we still need to keep mechanics and calculations human-readable whever possible.

A 0 to 20 range of attributes is pretty good, because if you have 5 attributes that means 50 degrees of freedom - (It's good to start out with assuming players get a maximum of 50% of the points it would require to maximize every attribute, and then to slowly tweak down from there to find the ideal attribute spread for builds and items). If you add a sixth attribute and keep the cap at 50 points, you're straining things just enough that players can specialize in one or two attributes, or go evenly spread across the board, this is a pretty good strategy, as it's tough to design an RPG to handle players performing 3-4 stat specializations at the same time (it's easy to build a game around STR, INT, AGI, END and STR/INT, STR/AGI, AGI/INT, etc. but not so much when players can reliably specialize in STR/INT/END, STR/AGI/END, etc. - this becomes too cumbersome to support in unique ways).

Then again, World of Darkness's attribute system is quite different from D&D's, and it works. But I'd say it works because it's designed around exponential costs and exponential gains, meaning, it limits specialization, rewards specialization, and allows some degree of balanced characters to be created.

Critically, it's important to make it easy to design character concepts around their stats. A STR/INT character maybe a zealous arcane warrior, A STR/AGI a typical brute or maybe a blacksmith or ranger, A WIS/STR a paladin, A WIS/AGI a ranger or a crafter, An AGi/INT a rogue-mage hybrid, etc. It's more amorphous when you let players define their class's strengths to be too broad - you get Skyrim syndrome, where you're a Wizard-Knight-Thief-Who-Just-Doesn't-Use-Bows-But-Does-Everything-Else-Fine.

You are using case of too complex system. My point was simply about deepening system because player doesn't need to do complex math every time his turns comes.

Take for example environmental conditions and how this affects combat. In PnP game you would need add extra complexity for bow mechanic to shoot in bad weather which would be cumber-stone to player calculate every shoot.

But in cRPG player don't need to calculate it AND he does know that bad weather = worse bow accuracy.

Same with stats. In PnP like for example D&D3,5 weapons atribute is either STR or DEX. Never both or other atributes (unless you take ability).
It's created that way because it is far easier to calculate aspect of attack from single attribute than some more complex mix of str dex int.

As you play cRPG you don't need to do math behind everything. You just need to know more or less equation behind it. And that is only the case if you want to know completely system behind it. Because you can as well play game without knowing that as you can learn what works and what not. Higher STR ? more damage done with blunt weapons, Higher DX ? better accuracy, Better Int ? More crits, better parrying, positioning etc.

Just take a look at Fallout Tactics or JA2. Both of those games would be unplayable in paper form as their system is far more complex, making players it chore to play and yet people understand it and anyone can tell you those systems are excellent. You don't lose time to count anything in those games beside simple %tohit marker on your enemy and more or less positioning of your troops.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,995
"Josh and obsidian won't put thoughts/words in the mind/mouth of the player. So there won't be any narration telling you what the MC thinks."

\Yes, they will. It won't be a free for all.
 

deuxhero

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
12,064
Location
Flowery Land
Looks like fucking Baldur's Gate. Even the stances of the NPCs is 100% Baldur's Gate. That gives me a major fucking hard on.


yeah... but will it have this?



I hope this kind of storytelling will make a comeback.


I forgot how bored and "I don't want to be here, but money is money" the BG narrator sounded.

And seriously, what's the fuck was with BG always saying "foster father". Regardless of who they are, where they are from, what they think of Gorion ect they will ALWAYS say the exact same "foster father" title, as through Bioware had an editor go through and check for this (even though you and thou are mixed casually...). Just "guardian" would have been a better title and not look as horrible when EVERYONE uses it.
 
Last edited:

Abelian

Somebody's Alt
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
2,289
even though you and thou are mixed casually
Fun linguistic fact: in the middle ages, "thee"/"thou" was the second person singular and "you" was second person plural, but also used as a form of respect as in other languages. It's just that "thee"/"thou" fell out of use.

Of course, all this doesn't mean that BG did it correctly, as there were characters such as Safana who had much more archaic speech than the rest.

Another fun fact: the narrator is Sarevok's voice actor. I think he sounds solemn/ominous rather than bored. It's obvious he's trying to put some intonation in his speech.
 

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