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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

Murk

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Hrmm, would you have access to the full school in the form of spell-points per level? Or would each spell correspond to another like Fireball-Haste, and switching from evocation to transmutation gives you the appropriate spell?

Sounds... kinda needlessly complicated... but I guess we don't have much to go off of besides his use of the word "suites" in quotation marks.
 

Lord Andre

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Think mage schools from D&D but only one activated at a time. So if you're currently on conjuration, you have to switch to evocation to cast a fireball. If you can do this at will as Sawyer implies than it's kind of meaningless. Or maybe switching itself has a kool-down. YEAH !!!

Actually, in one place he said you'd be able to switch LESS frequently than you could rest in Baldur's Gate.

That would be good news. I'm confident Obsidian can make a good game, I'm less sure about good combat mechanics. Actually it's not even the mechanics I'm worried about it's the difficulty. Good mechanics mean nothing if encounters are piss easy and artificial hardcore mods are not incline. If I had my way, a typical biodrone would be unable to pass the first dungeon. I hate retard-friendly games.
 

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Think mage schools from D&D but only one activated at a time. So if you're currently on conjuration, you have to switch to evocation to cast a fireball. If you can do this at will as Sawyer implies than it's kind of meaningless. Or maybe switching itself has a kool-down. YEAH !!!

Actually, in one place he said you'd be able to switch LESS frequently than you could rest in Baldur's Gate.

That would be good news. I'm confident Obsidian can make a good game, I'm less sure about good combat mechanics. Actually it's not even the mechanics I'm worried about it's the difficulty. Good mechanics mean nothing if encounters are piss easy and artificial hardcore mods are not incline. If I had my way, a typical biodrone would be unable to pass the first dungeon. I hate retard-friendly games.

Here's where he said it: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60372-vancian-magic-system/page__st__180#entry1216618

Actually though he contradicted what he said on his Formspring, where he said it would be GREATER frequency (not sure how that makes sense). Asking for clarifications.
 

Murk

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I am noticing an interesting concurrence with people who are in this "order of obsidian" and either poorly reasoned, articulated, or just plain bad posts.
 

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So surely kool-downs are similarly flawed by game balance, and not inherently, since an ability could take a game-day to cool down, and then you'd still have Vancian-style considerations in using abilities (aside from tailoring your prepared spell-list)? Cool downs are made popamole by being meaninglessly short, Vancian is made popamole by devaluing resting.
 

Grimlorn

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The problem with the chance of attack is you can just quicksave and reload until you rest without being interrupted. There's also the ability to simply walk back to a city and rest there. Although, walking too much can suck. Much better to at least remove resting in caves/dungeons. But then walking back and forth from dungeons to towns and back again is pretty annoying in IWD. Starting to understand VD's hate for walking in RPGs.
 

Murk

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So surely kool-downs are similarly flawed by game balance, and not inherently, since an ability could take a game-day to cool down, and then you'd still have Vancian-style considerations in using abilities (aside from tailoring your prepared spell-list)? Cool downs are made popamole by being meaninglessly short, Vancian is made popamole by devaluing resting.

I don't disagree, but my point is that if the only complaint against Vancian casting is blast-rest-blast-rest-blasting then just make it so characters can't sleep every 10 minutes. Games have done this plenty of times, and it sounds ridiculous anyway, "Well, I just woke up and said 5 words to cause fire, I'm gonna go crash for another 8 hours specifically".
 

Lord Andre

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I am noticing an interesting concurrence with people who are in this "order of obsidian" and either poorly reasoned, articulated, or just plain bad posts.

Well, normal people don't need a "Dumbledore's Army" sticker under their avatar to feel important...so what you are left with is retards and children. The children are the better posters.
 

groke

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So surely kool-downs are similarly flawed by game balance, and not inherently, since an ability could take a game-day to cool down, and then you'd still have Vancian-style considerations in using abilities (aside from tailoring your prepared spell-list)? Cool downs are made popamole by being meaninglessly short, Vancian is made popamole by devaluing resting.

I don't disagree, but my point is that if the only complaint against Vancian casting is blast-rest-blast-rest-blasting then just make it so characters can't sleep every 10 minutes. Games have done this plenty of times, and it sounds ridiculous anyway, "Well, I just woke up and said 5 words to cause fire, I'm gonna go crash for another 8 hours specifically".

Well, I wasn't intending to voice a complaint against Vancian, just that it's application can just as easily become popamole as kkkool-downs. I think strictly-controlled resting usually improves a Vancian system, though. KotC did this fantastically, but I don't expect Obsidian to make a game where I have to reload an encounter 30 times because the only fireplace in the dungeon I was unexpectedly trapped in has a goddamn dragon between me and it.
 

Keshik

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Ah great, Merin is back. Dude sure likes blabbing on about straw men.
 

tuluse

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So surely kool-downs are similarly flawed by game balance, and not inherently, since an ability could take a game-day to cool down, and then you'd still have Vancian-style considerations in using abilities (aside from tailoring your prepared spell-list)? Cool downs are made popamole by being meaninglessly short, Vancian is made popamole by devaluing resting.

I don't disagree, but my point is that if the only complaint against Vancian casting is blast-rest-blast-rest-blasting then just make it so characters can't sleep every 10 minutes. Games have done this plenty of times, and it sounds ridiculous anyway, "Well, I just woke up and said 5 words to cause fire, I'm gonna go crash for another 8 hours specifically".
You know what's funny? if you follow 3.5E* strictly, you can only cast your spells once per day, regardless of how many times you rest in said day. I think you also only need 1 hour of rest to get them back in most cases, but it has to be the next day.

*This might be new to pathfinder, but I'm pretty sure they're the same.
 

Lord Andre

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reload an encounter 30 times because the only fireplace in the dungeon I was unexpectedly trapped in has a goddamn dragon between me and it.

Good times !

Another thing about cooldowns that rubs me the wrong way is the fact that it's a gateway drug to jrpgs. I don't want my fighters doing omnislashes no matter how much soul mojo they have.
 

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http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60372-vancian-magic-system/page__st__360#entry1217913

Replaying Baldur's Gate now, and I must say, D&D magic system is just plain awful! Seriously, you start with ONE spell. You cast it and you're useless until you sleep again. This was maybe fine when you were in a pen paper game and never got more than a couple fights in an evening, but in a computer game it's awful. Now you're level 3, and woopdydoo, you hav 3 or 4 spells (depending on house rules, magic items, etc). Yes, I know magic users seem to get overpowered at high level, but the balance is just wrong. All classes in a game (any that have classes) should be fun at every single level, players should never have to struggle with beginning of a game with the hope that it gets better later.

What I'd like is "Other" here. Not really a mana pool (the concept is just too stereotypical I think). Have a power/energy/fatigue pool. You can blow it all in a big inefficient burst of magic, or have a lot of smaller attacks. If you run low it will regenerate over the course of the fight as well, it's just there to slow you down and from being overpowered. No need to rest overnight, or an hour, or even 10 minutes. Absolutely you should be recharged by the time you get to the next fight. Of course if it's been a long day or you're badly hurt then it regenerates much slower.

That is a magic user should play somewhat similar to a melee or ranged fighter. If a level 1 fighter can shoot 20 arrows one after the other limited only by agility and stamina, then a level 1 magic user should be able to do the equivalent and be limited by power or stamina. And when characters of any class run out of stamina they're not useless they just need to slow down the attacks and catch a breath (no potions unless you're in a hurry).

I'd like to see fewer "spells" (or really just magical effects as opposed to cooking recipes), and they vary when being cast from low power to high power, or change effect to be single target or multiple target, a one shot or a continuous effect, etc. Don't burden the player with an overload of information about magic, some game manuals have 3/4s or more devoted just to spells. Keep it simpler and accessible.

Arcane and divine should be the same thing. If you are going to split into two then why not split into 3 or 4 or 20? Never understood that binary divide, too much like medievalism, exoteric vs esoteric, too much like D&D.

:retarded:
 

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UPDATE: Mega-Dungeon!!! http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/319868

Update #13: 50K Backers Brings New Mega Dungeon, Stretch Goals and More! (PayPal Too!)

Update #13 · Oct. 01, 2012

Happy Monday! We've reached 50,000 backers, and have a special reward for everyone. Details below. Also coming this week, we have more updates about the development and creation of the game. Tomorrow, Justin Bell will discuss the process for composing the music for our trailer video. On Wednesday, Josh will update with more details about the game's design, and we are going to unveil a awesome art piece that we’ve been working on.

Oh, PayPal is also coming on Wednesday!

The 50,000 Backer Reward

We are very excited to announce a reward to all backers that have helped us come this far. Today we are introducing The Endless Paths of Od Nua - a new dungeon experience for Project Eternity:

In the western reaches of the Dyrwood lies the Endless Paths, an ancient network of cobbled trails that wind through arches of dense overgrowth, twisting within the confines of a high castle wall as they make their way to the gates of iron-shuttered towers that jut forth from the interior. In ages past, the towers rising from the gardens to pierce the canopy of the forest once marked the dominion of the castle's relentless, crazed builder: Od Nua. But the courses of Od Nua's madness run far below the surface, stretching forever deeper into wandering catacombs and bone-cramped oubliettes unseen by living eyes for centuries. The Endless Paths, as the old Glanfathans call them, cannot be walked by the living, but the storytellers say with certainty that many strong souls have found a permanent home beneath the grieving creator's estate.

Most else that is said and written of the place is fiction or conjecture, more likely to have sprouted from the svef-enhanced imaginations of bored and boasting mercenaries than from any seed of truth. Hosts of lost souls that relentlessly stalk the living, cathedral-sized tombs overflowing with the restless victims of a horrific plague, lightless chambers sealing in the remnants of Od Nua's failed experiments. Most legends converge on a common theme: that under the castle rest myriad forgotten vaults of death and darkness glittering with Od Nua's enchanted creations and the abandoned treasure of ill-fated interlopers. So great is the fear of the castle's denizens that even drunken and drug-cheered adventurers do not joke of setting foot on the paths, lest their souls join the eternal ranks of those that have gone before them.

The current plan is to make The Endless Paths with three subterranean levels, but it can grow larger with your help. For every 2,500 additional backers, the depths of Od Nua’s castle become deeper, which means one additional level will be added to the vaults. Continue to spread the word about Project Eternity, and let's see how big we can makeThe Endless Paths!

Crafting and Enchanting at $2.4 Million

We also have a new stretch goal at $2.4 million dollars to announce: Crafting and Enchanting!

3e92858f946d1553164a19b11c1d1164_large.jpg


Crafting and enchanting in Project Eternity will allow players to use objects and materials they find during exploration to both create consumable items like potions and scrolls as well as give their gear custom upgrades that can't be accomplished by other means. This system is intended to be easy to use and very flexible, allowing players to customize many aspects of what they can create or alter. Whether it's brewing basic potions from herbs and minerals commonly found throughout the world or upgrading a humble broadsword into a custom-named, magically-imbued weapon of distinctive and legendary power, we want to give players the ability to make it. On the development side of things, we also want to make the system as data-driven as possible, allowing us to easily extend our list of recipes in the future.

Each stretch goal we hit not only adds new features to the game like crafting, but also makes the game larger by adding more content, quests, dialogue, and characters. Together, we've already added two new races, companions and classes, along with a player house. $2.2 million is very close which adds a new faction and region, and there are more exciting stretch goals planned if we make it past $2.4 million and beyond.

New Add-Ons

Additionally, we have two new add-ons for you:
  • Add an Early Access Beta Key for $25. The beta key is the same reward at the $110 and up levels, but now you can add it as an extra at the lower tiers.
  • Add a Digital Strategy Guide for $7. The digital strategy guide is also included in the $80 and up levels, but now you can add it as an extra at the lower tiers. This will cost more when we ship the game, so get in on the opportunity to save!
As a quick tutorial on how to add add-ons, go to the Project Eternity Kickstarter site and hit the Manage Your Pledge button. The reward tier you had already picked will still be selected and the amount will be in the big box at the top. All you need to do is add the dollar amount that covers the add-ons you would like to your pledge and enter the new total number. For instance, if you are at the $35 Pledge level and want to add the Beta Key, you would enter $60 as your total pledge. We’ll send you a fulfillment survey after the Kickstarter period is over and you can specify what you wanted to do with any excess monies added.

Thank you!

Update by Adam Brennecke and Josh Sawyer

FORUMS: Join in the discussion for Update #13!
 

evdk

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I hope the Beta access as an upgrade won't come to bite them in the ass with people downgrading from the more pricey tiers.

EDIT: Also the fact that the dungeon gets bigger with more people pledging will probably force me to dress up in rags and start preaching on a street corner in Prague about the virtues of Project Eternity.
 

Murk

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You know what's funny? if you follow 3.5E* strictly, you can only cast your spells once per day, regardless of how many times you rest in said day. I think you also only need 1 hour of rest to get them back in most cases, but it has to be the next day.

*This might be new to pathfinder, but I'm pretty sure they're the same.

I've played with similar rules, albeit not in Pathfinder, but no -- it's 8 hours of sleep. Elves, that do not sleep and only need 4 hours of trancing to stay coherent, still need to trance for 8 hours to regain spells as well.
 

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I hope the Beta access as an upgrade won't come to bite them in the ass with people downgrading from the more pricey tiers.

Well, if it does it'll show up on the graphs. I guess they think they can gain more than they lose.

On the development side of things, we also want to make the system as data-driven as possible, allowing us to easily extend our list of recipes in the future.

lol DLC
 

Murk

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Well, I wasn't intending to voice a complaint against Vancian, just that it's application can just as easily become popamole as kkkool-downs. I think strictly-controlled resting usually improves a Vancian system, though. KotC did this fantastically,

We agree then.

but I don't expect Obsidian to make a game where I have to reload an encounter 30 times because the only fireplace in the dungeon I was unexpectedly trapped in has a goddamn dragon between me and it.

If only mein freund, if only.
 

Murk

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Ah great, Merin is back. Dude sure likes blabbing on about straw men.

It amazes me how much time he/she can spend to quoting and finding posts but not the 5 minutes necessary to understand what the fuck I said.
 

HanoverF

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For some reason I had thought crafting and enchanting were already in. It's kinda hard to get excited about a dungeon for a game we still have so little info about, not that I'm complaining.
 

tuluse

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You know what's funny? if you follow 3.5E* strictly, you can only cast your spells once per day, regardless of how many times you rest in said day. I think you also only need 1 hour of rest to get them back in most cases, but it has to be the next day.

*This might be new to pathfinder, but I'm pretty sure they're the same.

I've played with similar rules, albeit not in Pathfinder, but no -- it's 8 hours of sleep. Elves, that do not sleep and only need 4 hours of trancing to stay coherent, still need to trance for 8 hours to regain spells as well.
I just looked it up. You're right about arcane magic. I was thinking of divine magic. Clerics only need to spend 1 hour per day praying to get their spells back.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric
 

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Josh has responded to my question on Formspring: http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/377213823058210236


I think that every character should be able to have a reliable, repeatable default action and some characters may largely rely on using a default action modified by modal properties (e.g. 3E's Power Attack).

I think that the pacing of different characters actually *should* be asynchronous because that will likely cause different tactical considerations for what those characters do in combat. I also think it would be good if players could opt to make individual characters more or less high-maintenance. The default spellcaster in Project Eternity may not require new inputs every six seconds, but if a player wants to build one that does, I don't think allowing the player to push the character in that direction is a bad thing.
 

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