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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

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Holy shit. Looks like VotS was right. This is not looking good at all. It's hard for me to believe that Tim "ToEE" Cain thinks cooldowns are a viable option. This sort of comment reminds me that Sawyer doesn't have much of a track record. He hasn't proven himself like Avellone or Cain.

Proven himself with what? Icewind Dale, NWN2 and New Vegas don't count?
 

TwinkieGorilla

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Twinkie, how about an example where a game fails to be art because of that stuff you wrote ?

My point is less about anything "failing" as anything (art or otherwise) and rather how a game like New Vegas succeeded with what I considered a more mature approach. Like I said though, I personally don't have a big problem with it. At least not enough of one where I'd donate money to a misguided attempt at rallying for equality. I usually just roll my eyes when a skin-tight ass stares me down (ME2). I mean, it's a bit juvey is all.
 

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BTW, there are some very smart people posting in that thread ATM in favor of the anti-cooldown, pro-Vancian side. Good reading. I hope they're Codexers.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Holy shit. Looks like VotS was right. This is not looking good at all. It's hard for me to believe that Tim "ToEE" Cain thinks cooldowns are a viable option. This sort of comment reminds me that Sawyer doesn't have much of a track record. He hasn't proven himself like Avellone or Cain.

Proven himself with what? Icewind Dale, NWN2 and New Vegas don't count?
Icewind Dale, that game practically made itself. NWN2 was pretty meh. Also, both these games had character systems pre-built.

New Vegas was good writing wise, and an improvement on Fallout 3, but the mechanics were still pretty shit.

So as a system creator, no he has not proven himself at all.
 

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It pains me to see Jimbob waste the remaining few points of his sanity on someone like Nigro.

Jimbob, mein freund, think of your health.
 

groke

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I think it's funny that Sawyer would back 'vidya vs. womyn' and then have metal-tits as P:E's second piece of released concept art.

It pains me to see Jimbob waste the remaining few points of his sanity on someone like Nigro.

Jimbob, mein freund, think of your health.

Let him go, we'll get another comic out of his therapy treatment
 

Murk

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Motherfuckers need to quit posting this "DURR I SAW TI DONE RIGHT IN OTHER GAME THAT'S KINDA LIKE D&D BUT NOT QUITE ITS --goes on to explain sorcerer/bard casting from d&d-- SEE MUCH BETTER GIVES TACTICS"

Idiots. If you don't know, then just keep your fucking mouths shut.
 

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The problem with the comment is that he isn't willing to rule out MMOG game mechanics. Stuff that was designed so that every class could be perfectly balanced for PvP combat and measured in DPS. Mechanics that are the darling of precisely the kinds of games that this game is not supposed to be. Ruling that out is dogmatic in the same way that ruling out real time without pause is dogmatic. It's a twitch popamole mechanic. It was designed for fast action combat not for slow strategic pseudo-turn-based combat. The people who are for it are the same people who think Dragon Age and Skyrim are two of the greatest games ever made. Maybe not as good as WoW, but still very good. And they anticipating Dragon Age 2014 and Elder Scrolls 2015 even more than they are some nostalgia project for old geezers. I mean, cmon... How is a game with cooldown based combat going to do the following:

Project Eternity aims to recapture the magic, imagination, depth, and nostalgia of classic RPG's that we enjoyed making - and playing. At Obsidian, we have the people responsible for many of those classic games and we want to bring those games back… and that’s why we’re here - we need your help to make it a reality!
 

tuluse

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His idea for suites of memorized magic sounds more interesting than any other idea I've heard so far.

Probably because he didn't give any details so I'm imagining the best it could be instead of what were likely to get.
 

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Good comment here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60372-vancian-magic-system/page__st__340#entry1217723

Tuco Benedicto said:
i just think that, like for pretty much anything, there's some virtuous middle way that can be reached.
In a system similar to D&D NO, casters shouldn't be able to cast at every turn, exactly like a cleric shouldn't be able to waste his healing spell too frequently (this also prevents to design encounters around the "tank & spank" principle).
I'm not sure why you are trying to imply that what applies for a class should be true for every other one. That's not the case, and that's why party based games are awesome: they can offer interesting subdivision of roles.
Clearly a warrior "cleave" doesn't need to be set on a cooldown as high as a mage fireball, capable by itself to clean a battlefield.And clearly the guy that can clean the battlefiled in a very specific, unique circumstance doesn't need to be as active and as powerful as the other members of the party at any other moment.

Anyway, I essentially already described my ideal situation on a RTwP game when I pointed how BG2 is better than DAO: everyone in your party should essentially rely on standard autoattack (plus eventual use of passive traits if they fit), with the player deciding who's targeting who and moving where... And *then* on top of this very basic layer you should have a fair amount of very situational abilities for each character. The ability to interrupt a cast, to deal a big burst of damage on a cooldown, to use a daily ability and to cast very decisive spells from a limited, precious pool of resources.

I've sent a link to it to Josh Sawyer on his Formspring, asking for his opinion. I think a lot of the venom in the cooldowns argument would be removed, if Sawyer confirmed that the combat would not devolve into button pushing for AWESOME special abilities, cooldowns or no cooldowns.
 

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Vancian is harder to turn into popamole than cooldowns. And since I trust Obsidian to write good but not to design good, I see vancian as a fail safe against Sawyer going full retard.
 

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Proven himself with what? Icewind Dale, NWN2 and New Vegas don't count?

IWD was okay. I admit the combat was fun, but it was straight 2nd Ed. D&D. NWN2 sucked except for MotB. FONV was really only good due to the story. The combat was iffy at best. It was more of a "good for what it is" kind of thing in terms of the non-story aspects. None of it compares to PS:T in terms of story or ToEE in terms of combat. I'd feel a lot better if Sawyer would leave the game mechanics to Cain and the story to Avellone.
 

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We are over 50k backers. I'm looking forward to the big surprise they promised us! :bounce:
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Proven himself with what? Icewind Dale, NWN2 and New Vegas don't count?

IWD was okay. I admit the combat was fun, but it was straight 2nd Ed. D&D. NWN2 sucked except for MotB. FONV was really only good due to the story. The combat was iffy at best. It was more of a "good for what it is" kind of thing in terms of the non-story aspects. None of it compares to PS:T in terms of story or ToEE in terms of combat. I'd feel a lot better if Sawyer would leave the game mechanics to Cain and the story to Avellone.
And MCA's changes to DnD for PS:T were actually pretty interesting compared what's usually done. With the custom spells, making wisdom super important, getting an attribute point with each level, and being able to switch classes nearly at will.
 

Lord Andre

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Vancian is harder to turn into popamole than cooldowns. And since I trust Obsidian to write good but not to design good, I see vancian as a fail safe against Sawyer going full retard.

Vancian is very easy to turn popamole! Look:

Rest anywhere.

See? done.

Well said. Still, rest=possible enemy attack and cooldowns=no rest needed at all...
 

Alex

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His idea for suites of memorized magic sounds more interesting than any other idea I've heard so far.

Probably because he didn't give any details so I'm imagining the best it could be instead of what were likely to get.

I dunno. The idea sound to me like that game that allows you to play magic only with pre-selected decks. Maybe it will be very nice if they actually make some cool mechanics that make it feel more like part of the setting. Like, for example, the suite you get depend on your mood, which would be like the color of your soul. So, in order to take death spells, you have to take appropriate choices for it in dialog, and it slowly tarnishes your soul in a permanent way. Still, I would be a lot more open to the idea if I didn't think they are designing it mechanics first, adapting the setting to fit with it. I mean, nothing wrong with this kind of design, but I like the other way around a lot more.
 

Lord Andre

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Think mage schools from D&D but only one activated at a time. So if you're currently on conjuration, you have to switch to evocation to cast a fireball. If you can do this at will as Sawyer implies than it's kind of meaningless. Or maybe switching itself has a kool-down. YEAH !!!
 

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Think mage schools from D&D but only one activated at a time. So if you're currently on conjuration, you have to switch to evocation to cast a fireball. If you can do this at will as Sawyer implies than it's kind of meaningless. Or maybe switching itself has a kool-down. YEAH !!!

Actually, in one place he said you'd be able to switch LESS frequently than you could rest in Baldur's Gate.
 

Murk

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The rest anywhere is a separate mechanic. In a table-top game the DM can easily fuck with your shit if need be, in a cRPG they need either a "you wake up to your party members' screams, to see a brigand turn to you with a crossbow raised, your last thoughts are "at least I did not soil myself" as the arrow slides through your throat, causing a chain of events that result in a rather malodorous corpse".

Or something. Point is, rest anywhere is not an inherent flaw in Vancian casting, it's a flaw in game balance.
 

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