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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

wormix

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I wonder if the health/stamina system will be used for enemies too. This would mean that you'd end up knocking out enemies without killing them. Forcing you to go around and slit everyones throats in cold blood, or just strip them naked and tie them up?

Also just because you're knocked out doesn't mean certain enemies couldn't keep attacking you while you're defenseless.
 

Snerf

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I wonder if the health/stamina system will be used for enemies too. This would mean that you'd end up knocking out enemies without killing them. Forcing you to go around and slit everyones throats in cold blood, or just strip them naked and tie them up?

I didn't realize we were still talking about romances. :smug:
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I wonder if the health/stamina system will be used for enemies too.

I don't see why not.

Also just because you're knocked out doesn't mean certain enemies couldn't keep attacking you while you're defenseless.

Sure, this already happened in SoZ. Wasn't that huge of a problem (if you see it as a problem)
 

Volrath

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I never managed to suffer through the generic and unbelievably shitty original campaign of NWN2 to reach the well done expansions so many people are fond of. I've owned the game since years ago, but uninstalled it in disgust after the first fifteen minutes of generic scenery, generic elves, generic barmaids, generic music, generic (and cheesy) dialog... Christ, that was awful. That it was salvaged in any way seems a miracle.

My respect for Obsidian somehow survived NWN2. I pretty much worship the ground any prominent Fallout and Fallout 2 developers walk on, so they could shit down my throat and I'd probably still buy their games.
Just play Mask of the Betrayer at least once. Just fucking once.
 

jewboy

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I'm really having trouble deciding whether I should upgrade from the lowest GOG download tier to the $65 pre-order for the retail box + paper manual + jewel cased DVD with the paypal option. Most of the things I've read about the combat system sound to me like bad ideas and no game yet made that has used similar ideas has had enjoyable combat. It really comes down to how much I trust Obsidian. Both in their abilities and in their vision. I mean, they aren't Black Isle anymore. I would have trusted Black Isle enough to pre-order the retail version. The game has MCA, Tim Cain, and George Ziets as designers. Sawyer too, but I'm kind of neutral on him. Although I did enjoy IWD2 combat until it got too repetitive, he hasn't really proven himself yet IMO.

I'm confident that the story will be good, at least by computer game standards, but what if they pull another Alpha Brotocol? Good story (I assume), but awful, tedious combat. It does appear that they are at least thinking about compromising between us and the Biodrones. That sort of thing doesn't usually end well. If they really are aiming for a cross between Torment and BG2 that at least would show that their vision is a good one, but the combat doesn't sound like it's going to be anything like either of those games. It may be that originally they planned on something pretty close to IWD combat with a PS:T story, but were swayed by the very active and vocal Biodrones who seem to greatly outnumber the people who actually liked the Black Isle games just as they were without being nextgenned. I suppose the combat could end up being something like a cross between Dragon Age and Icewind Dale II.

It has to be remembered that they are at least claiming that they are planning to spend all of the kickstarter money on production costs. They are hoping to make their real profits on the retail release through Steam, GOG, and possibly retail store sales or directly from their own web store. Even small compromises in terms of making the game more mainstream friendly might pay off big at that time. Things like spending a bit more development time on the romances for the Biodrones and trying to shoehorn in some fast paced real time combat for the Dungeon Seige 3 / Diablo audience. Of course the Biodrones also like fast paced combat (like DA1/2) and probably won't ever be playing with auto-pause engaged. I'm sure it's going to be awfully tempting for Obsidian to put some of that in so that the game is more accessible to a wider audience. Of course Josh has his own ideas which I guess are closer to 4th Ed. D&D and Darklands than the IE games. In terms of combat that seems to be their real vision. I haven't played either of those. So I'm not sure what I think about it.
 

wormix

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I wonder if the health/stamina system will be used for enemies too.
I don't see why not.
Yeah, just I can't think of any RPG where you end up knocking enemies out from normal combat instead of killing them.

Also just because you're knocked out doesn't mean certain enemies couldn't keep attacking you while you're defenseless.

Sure, this already happened in SoZ. Wasn't that huge of a problem (if you see it as a problem)
Not a problem, could make certain enemies vastly more dangerous without giving them inflated damage. Didn't know that happened in SoZ, haven't actually played it...
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I'm confident that the story will be good, at least by computer game standards, but what if they pull another Alpha Brotocol? Good story (I assume), but awful, tedious combat. It does appear that they are at least thinking about compromising between us and the Biodrones. That sort of thing doesn't usually end well. If they really are aiming for a cross between Torment and BG2 that at least would show that their vision is a good one, but the combat doesn't sound like it's going to be anything like either of those games. It may be that originally they planned on something pretty close to IWD combat with a PS:T story, but were swayed by the very active and vocal Biodrones who seem to greatly outnumber the people who actually liked the Black Isle games just as they were without being nextgenned. I suppose the combat could end up being something like a cross between Dragon Age and Icewind Dale II.

I don't believe they've been swayed by anything. The mechanics are pretty obviously a product of things that Josh Sawyer has been thinking about for years.
 

Storyfag

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I wonder if the health/stamina system will be used for enemies too.

I don't see why not.
There's no real point to it though. RPG enemies don't have any long term endurance concerns. They only appear in one encounter, where they either die or defeat the player.

See, you're getting it wrong. This is the perfect chance to enrich the typical RPG experience - you could get the option of sparing defeated enemies, resulting in Weird Shit(tm) happening later to you on their behalf :smug:
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
There's no real point to it though. RPG enemies don't have any long term endurance concerns. They only appear in one encounter, where they either die or defeat the player.

Hmm. You know what? This is worth asking Josh about.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
See, you're getting it wrong. This is the perfect chance to enrich the typical RPG experience - you could get the option of sparing defeated enemies, resulting in Weird Shit(tm) happening later to you on their behalf :smug:
Just like Alpha Protocol right? :M
 

Semper

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MCA Project: Eternity
Also spells are on cooldown and insta-regen between encounters; so that you have all your best spells (And abilities) always available each encounter. [...] This is important since you will ALWAYS have the most powerful spells/abilities on at the start.

:retarded: aren't the best spells usually the ones within the top tiers which are limited by rest and not cd? at least if they create a linear spell progression... i agree that cd on the lower tiers has a chance to make those spells rather useless, but claiming that you'll have your best spells always available is completely wrong.

Stamina is essentially the main target of the attacks since health can't be lost within this model quickly. So stamina is replacing classical health. Health is really a substitute for the wounding system as opposed to HPs; it boils down to how many wounds you can take.

who said that every type of damage targets stamina first? what if there're spells or abilities which drain hp without touching stamina at all? what if the lower your hp the slower your stamina recovers? what if such effects like days without sleep, being encumbered, heavy armor and poisons drain your stamina? we know nothing in detail about the system they've in mind, and there are lots of mechanics to enhance it.
 

wormix

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It's not just long term concerns though. Whether an enemy priest can restore his knocked out allies with a spell changes any encounter involving a priest.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Key to understanding Captain Shrek: He assumes the absolute worst is true until it is explicitly denied, with no regard to context or common sense.

I sent Josh a question on his Formspring, hopefully he replies.
 

Jasede

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What I really miss in RPGs is enemy clerics resurrecting their fallen allies, and enemy necromancers raising them as zombies or skeletons or something. It'd make fights a lot harder if you don't kill the cleric first and add a new layer of strategy to them because of course, going for the cleric first leaves the rogues, fighters and wizards free reign to rain destruction upon you.
 

Captain Shrek

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Key to understanding Captain Shrek: He assumes the absolute worst is true until it is explicitly denied, with no regard to context or common sense.

I sent Josh a question on his Formspring, hopefully he replies.


Key to understanding Infinitron: He thinks Bik and Darklands had COD regen system. Excusable since he actually never played them.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Key to understanding Captain Shrek: He assumes the absolute worst is true until it is explicitly denied, with no regard to context or common sense.

I sent Josh a question on his Formspring, hopefully he replies.


Key to understanding Infinitron: He thinks Bik and Darklands had COD regen system. Excusable since he actually never played them.

For the record: I've played through BaK at least three times. Haven't played Darklands.
 

Jaesun

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MCA Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech
What I really miss in RPGs is enemy clerics resurrecting their fallen allies, and enemy necromancers raising them as zombies or skeletons or something. It'd make fights a lot harder if you don't kill the cleric first and add a new layer of strategy to them because of course, going for the cleric first leaves the rogues, fighters and wizards free reign to rain destruction upon you.

That would entirely depend on the world setting. First are there even zombies, and second, are there spells that exist that do raise fallen comrades from the dead and serve the cleric.

I would however assume this will be in the world of PE, but we don't know.
 

Captain Shrek

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:retarded: aren't the best spells usually the ones within the top tiers which are limited by rest and not cd? at least if they create a linear spell progression... i agree that cd on the lower tiers has a chance to make those spells rather useless, but claiming that you'll have your best spells always available is completely wrong.

Retard detected. All spells are on cooldown (and probably all the time) and insta regen at the end of the combat.



who said that every type of damage targets stamina first?

I didn't. Must be your mind playing tricks.

what if there're spells or abilities which drain hp without touching stamina at all? what if the lower your hp the slower your stamina recovers?

But as has been discussed earlier in this thread, there are more problems with continuously regenerating stamina than simply being a health shield (Assuming it is; but we will have to wait for that to be explained).

Still, for a second let us assume stamina is not health shield.

FACTS:

It has been mentioned that stamina will be lost during combat when you are hit and so will be health and that, there will be no rest spamming.

Case 1: So suppose your Health affects max stamina as you suggest:

The first implication of that is you will be at a suboptimal combat level before next encounter. There will be NO way to get to optimal without consumables (potions?/Kits?/food?) or rest. Now tell me how this situation is NOT exactly analogous to IE games where you had used up spells for mages and depleted health for other chars? These are the same reasons to which the entire anti-rest-spamming argument still apply. You will still do rest spamming if allowed under these assumptions if you are so inclined. Essentially the new system is simply a stand in for the old system except it has a stamina regeneration and cooldowns to spam your best attack per encounter unlike the tactical combat in IE games where you had to plan beforehand on how to use your resources. Not to mention with the regenerating resource of stamina if there are abilities related to that, you will also spam those based on the stamina "cooldown".

Case 2: So suppose your Health does NOT affect max stamina as you suggest:

Then the combat will be EVEN less tactical with your best attacks remaining at full strength throughout the encounter chain.

The problem as I see it, is that this system purportedly is designed to avoid rest-spamming, which in fact is an artificial issue (As in it does not really exist) and can be easily averted by good encounter design. The new system turns the game into spam-fest no matter how you cut it, simply because you are almost certainly using your best attacks per encounter even if at lowered potential (case 1).

This is exactly against IE game spirit (except Escape from planet tournament) where the planning required to actually see through the game was the charm of it's combat mechanics. It had faults, no doubt. But nothing so severe as to merit overhaul except for probably in the high magic setting (which is probably still in PE, we can't tell right now).

what if such effects like days without sleep, being encumbered, heavy armor and poisons drains your stamina? we know nothing in detail about the system they've in mind, and there are lots of mechanics to enhance it.

Hurr.

The system is designed to avoid non-existent rest spamming in IE games == > You will NOT NEED TO REST SPAM IN PE.
 

wormix

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Because of the rest button in BaK, the game really should have restored stamina out of combat. Or removed the rest button.
 
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What I really miss in RPGs is enemy clerics resurrecting their fallen allies, and enemy necromancers raising them as zombies or skeletons or something. It'd make fights a lot harder if you don't kill the cleric first and add a new layer of strategy to them because of course, going for the cleric first leaves the rogues, fighters and wizards free reign to rain destruction upon you.

The healer is always the primary target anyway...because even if he isn't raising anyone, he's still healing / buffing them.

:retarded: aren't the best spells usually the ones within the top tiers which are limited by rest and not cd? at least if they create a linear spell progression... i agree that cd on the lower tiers has a chance to make those spells rather useless, but claiming that you'll have your best spells always available is completely wrong.

Retard detected. All spells are on cooldown (and probably all the time) and insta regen at the end of the combat.



It has been stated multiple times that this isn't the case.
 

NOVD

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I think Obsidian is trying to split things up into sort of "encounter" resources, like stamina and the lower-level magic spells, and "daily" resources like health and the grimoire spells. There are also going to be abilities tied to the stamina system. They mentioned the barbarian class having an ability where he can mitigate damage to his stamina but not his health.
 

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