Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Blaine]

Obsidian's efforts to make Bethesda's mechanics less popamole in New Vegas were nothing short of heroic. It was certainly a much better game than F3 in the ways that matter most.

Obsidian's track record isn't perfect. New Vegas and KotOR II are the only games of theirs I give two shits about, although I'm told you can skip the fuck-terrible parts of NWN2 and get to the good expansion bits, so I may add that to the list someday. Imperfect track record aside, I think Project Eternity's got many things going for it: It's not built on the assets of someone else's franchise, they'll be designing their own setting and mechanics from scratch, they've assembled an impressive stable of crunchy nerds with respectable portfolios, the PE team is smaller and more focused, and it's a PC-only game purposely intended to appeal to old-school (as in late 1990s) cRPG fans.

You can't say most of that about any of the other games Obsidian's developed, so I think this time we could potentially end up with a polished gem featuring satisfying, non-popamole combat. Knocking on wood as we speak.

 

[Murk]

This is all true IFF you are the same mental capacity as Sylvius the Mad.

Not true at all. Think about a game like The Witcher in which the characters have a lot of knowledge that the player does not -- things like how Geralt and Zoltan are old friends, or that Fisstech is a cocaine like drug, etc. In such cases discussion between PC and NPC isn't always transparent in its significance -- that's when such tags come into effect. Now, if you want a game that does not have such tags then what you really want is an option to turn off the feedback for that. I believe the news bits on PE have mentioned that there will be varying levels of feedback for PE and one is to turn off the skill-check tags.

 

[Murk]

What? I hadn't read the books before playing the game, doesn't change that Geralt knew Zoltan and that the characters have knowledge, that is out-of-context to the player, and as such sometimes warrants a meta-game tag to warn the player. When you do the Vizima Confidential quest the characters also have knowledge of things that the player has no way of knowing about because they happened outside of game time, period. Such things are often explained to the player but in cases like you saving Zoltan Chivay from the angry mob... well, the player may react differently when they do not know that Zoltan is important to Geralt, it may influence them to help him more often than if he was "just another dwarf".

Ideally, such things are avoided but in cases where the narrative requires characters to have knowledge outside of player knowledge there are degrees of meta-game indicators to the player.

 

[Grimlorn]

What? I hadn't read the books before playing the game, doesn't change that Geralt knew Zoltan and that the characters have knowledge, that is out-of-context to the player, and as such sometimes warrants a meta-game tag to warn the player.

Ideally, such things are avoided but in cases where the narrative requires characters to have knowledge outside of player knowledge there are degrees of meta-game indicators to the player.

It's been awhile since I played the game but Geralt had amnesia and had come back from the dead so that's why he didn't know anyone he knew. He just knew some of the basics about Witcher stuff and that was it. It's pretty much the same thing with TNO.

 

[Murk]

He remembered Fisstech well enough, including some strange adventure in which a person got poisoned by a fly, and how to best take it.

Look, you get the point -- if in-game characters have knowledge about things that influence the actual gameplay that the player has no way of knowing, there should be something to warn the player about it. If you want to argue about some kind of "hardcore" option to turn off the warning tags, fine, but hiding things from the player then going HAHAHAHAHA YOU IDIOT because there was no way to know what the game was doing is not good design.

 

[Infinitron]

He remembered Fisstech well enough, including some strange adventure in which a person got poisoned by a fly, and how to best take it.

That's actually something you can read about in a book, or get told about by the hospital's gardener. If you don't do either, Geralt doesn't know it.

 

[Murk]

Mikayel

Dude.

The game made it obvious as to who was a friend and who was a foe and who was bad and who was good. It is clear from the get go that Zoltan and Triss and the other read haired girl are friends. You DO NOT NEED TAGS to tell you that. I am serious. What is wrong here, I don't get. Can you show me SOME line from the game (in CONTEXT please) where you thought you needed explicit tags to make a right choice? I can't remember a single instance.

Hrmm, perhaps I didn't realize that the gardner said that then. Bad example indeed. My apologies.

Well, screw the examples. Getting to the point of skill-check tags -- if I don't think they're a bad idea. If you want a level of feedback available so that you can hide those things, that's fine, but if the game is going to punish you for something you had no idea was a potential consequence -- that's bad. The Witcher example was bad, as I didn't realize how it had been built up by in-game interaction.

I could site old jRPGs and how they'd just do a shit job of telling you where to go or what to do, but that's not a good idea either as those are usually shit games anyway. I donno, I guess what I mean is if a player is going to be held to some consequence based on the choice they made, they should know (as a player) that the choice is in fact a choice and not just fluff text. Skill-tags do a good job of letting you know that. It's gamey, but then so is the concept of AC, min-maxing, and games altogether.

 

[Surf Solar]

No, but I've watched my roommate play it. It seemed very typical: a nice story with interesting characters in a lame engine with annoying combat. If Obsidian only got the combat right they'd be the equivalent of Looking Glass Studios, but for RPGs.

Dead Money is fucking awesome Jasede. I agree to all of your points in the quote but you should give it a try. IMO it will be right up your alley.

 

[Murk]

Well written's pretty subjective tho, it's like a question of balance and if something like a skill tag simplifies the whole process then why not? I just don't see the real cost other than you becoming aware that you will need to use a skill-check. I mean, think about this situation in which you are sent to a rival gang-boss.

Gang Boss NPC: "Well, you walked all the way here in the middle of the night for a reason, what do you want?"

You:
A: "You should stop what you're doing, otherwise bad things might happen... [Intimidate]
B: "I think I have an idea that can benefit us both..."
C: "Look, this ends. NOW."
D: "I'm sick of working for Salazar, offer me a better deal."
E: "I think you should stop, bad things might happen if the feud continues..."

Option A is an intimidate check, and failing it causes a fight to break out -- if there's no tag what's to let you know that's an intimidate check and not just a conversation like option E? The tag makes a world of difference, and in games that have 90% non-skill-check dialog and 10% skill check dialog they should be denoted.

Then think about VtM - Bloodlines. You could flirt with Jeanette or you could use seduction lines, the difference (in the player picking up on it) was shown based on font. Maybe you don't want to risk trying to seduce with your paltry seduction skill but you want to flirt, the tag let's you know WHAT you're doing.

Having said that, the option to use the skill should always be present and the likelihood of success should be hidden, so you don't know if its a sure fire thing or not but an actual attempt handled by a virtual die roll + skill modifier. Or whatever.

 

[Spectacle]

I refer to this as the "Garfield Effect"—the Sunday morning newspaper comic "Garfield" being one of the worst offenders in terms of rehashing the same tired characters and ideas decade after decade.

Garfield's actually somewhat amusing if you cover up his thought balloons.

Even more amusing if you cover up the entire damn cat.

 

[almondblight]

Eh, Garfield without Garfield is just depressing to me. Without the thought balloons, I actually find them amusing.

http://www.truthandbeautybombs.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=4997&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

 

[evdk]

Some nice trolling going on in this thread... that or utter dumbuckery, you decide!

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61960-play-pe-with-a-controller/

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Fuck you, Jon. Kickstarter is the best thing ever.

 

[Infinitron]

Some nice trolling going on in this thread... that or utter dumbuckery, you decide!

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61960-play-pe-with-a-controller/

lrn 2 trackball couchfags

 

[villain of the story]

Some nice trolling going on in this thread... that or utter dumbuckery, you decide!

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61960-play-pe-with-a-controller/

lrn 2 trackball couchfags

It's depressing that the only gamepad with a trackball ever that was to be ended up not being.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/485185897/trackball-pc-game-controller

 

[evdk]

Some nice trolling going on in this thread... that or utter dumbuckery, you decide!

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61960-play-pe-with-a-controller/

lrn 2 trackball couchfags

I just learned to use mouse on the couch, much more convenient for me.

 

[Infinitron]

Interesting medieval swordplay geekery post: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61951-two-handed-swords/

 

[Andyman Messiah]

Well, this thread sure is interesting.

Alright, I'm going back to coughing up blood. See ya!

 

[Blaine]

Some nice trolling going on in this thread... that or utter dumbuckery, you decide!

I play my games on my laptop. Long gone are the days when I could set up a desktop at a desk and pla for hours and hours. Things change once you grow up.

That's odd. When I grew up, I purchased a tower PC, an ergonomic computer desk, a nice hard-surface mouse pad and a wired laser mouse.

I was unaware that grownups are required to play games on laptops while sitting on the couch.

 

[Captain Shrek]

This thread just 404'd.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Some nice trolling going on in this thread... that or utter dumbuckery, you decide!

I play my games on my laptop. Long gone are the days when I could set up a desktop at a desk and pla for hours and hours. Things change once you grow up.

That's odd. When I grew up, I purchased a tower PC, an ergonomic computer desk, a nice hard-surface mouse pad and a wired laser mouse.

I was unaware that grownups are required to play games on laptops while sitting on the couch.

Student detected. I am 25, play on a laptop and on the bed or the table that came with my furnished appt. Can't afford a gaming PC or get a good table/chair combo because I keep moving.

 

[evdk]

This thread just 404'd.

 

[Sensuki]

I see my interview is finding it's way around the internet.

Who the fuck are those people?

I posted a thread on the Project Eternity forums asking if anyone wanted to contribute to the questions, this was one of the requests that one of the posters asked for. I don't agree with it myself but the aim of using that comment was more to try and provoke a comment about the map style that Sawyer was looking at going for. In hindsight I should have just asked that as a question.

Personally I hope it's exactly like Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale. A large tactical map where I can navigate to if I want to move my party to a location on the map without scrolling, and that I can have open while I watch them move on the screen.

Mini-maps suck, and there's a few other derps by the interviewer besides that but overall some of the questions are very fucking interesting and Josh gives some interesting answers as well.

I just wanted to know what other things you thought were derps (Not taking that negatively per se, some of the things I can probably explain). Glad you liked some of the questions though.

 

[Captain Shrek]

This thread just 404'd.

The page number .

 

[Jasede]

evdk needs reinforcements
calling all able-bodied men to track down idiocy and fight it with words and fire