Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[ChristofferC]

Looks like a tranny.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Something looks very wrong about that gal's head, but I can't put my finger on it.

There might be something a bit off in the jaw and cheek structure, but I notice that her eyes look strange. It's like they're spaced weirdly or not necessarily lined up properly as you'd expect given the way she's looking.

 

[Jaesun]

That was fan art from the Obsidian forums actually.

 

[tuluse]

There might be something a bit off in the jaw and cheek structure, but I notice that her eyes look strange. It's like they're spaced weirdly or not necessarily lined up properly as you'd expect given the way she's looking.

I think they're not pointed at the same point, and possibly the futher away one needs to be smaller, I think the perspective is messed up.

That was fan art from the Obsidian forums actually.

Despite the complaints, this looks better than any concept art Obsidian has shown us.

 

[Infinitron]

Hmm, back in October, Bobby Null addressed one of my pet concerns, PE's monster variety: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61...ariety-unacceptable/page__st__20#entry1240746

Adam and I discussed this a while back. Our goal is to get a large assortment of creature types in PE. There is a huge list of requested creature types ( I made the list myself) and I am sure they won't all make it into the first game, but we should be able to get quite a few of them in. Undoubtedly, Josh will want to change some creatures on the list as the lore of PE continues to get fleshed out.

Here are a few things to remember.

1. Our camera angle will allow us to make faster creatures. They won't need to be in cinematic cut scenes and the textures of the models will not need to be as detailed.
2. With the camera angle, the rigs should require fewer animations to make them look good.
3. We aren't as concerned about memory as newer CRPGs since we are PC exclusive. Having too many creatures types loaded at any given time creates real memory concerns on consoles. This is a big reason why you don't see combat encounters with 5 or 6 creature types (animation rigs) in most AAA console games. It's also one of the reasons you see smaller party sizes in those games.

There is always a trade off. I'm sure the large creatures in Dragon Age (that grappled party members) required a ton of animation support and testing. I'd guess this is one of the many reasons the creature variety was a little on the sparse side as the OP mentions.

Lastly, as the PE world gets bigger (with expansions and sequels) our bestiary will continue to grow. For example, BG2 benefited from the entire creature library of BG1.

 

[Cosmo]

Something looks very wrong about that gal's head, but I can't put my finger on it.

The head's way too big and she has no shoulders. She's a human head on a dwarven body basically.

 

[toro]

... I am sure they won't all make it into the first game ...

They want a franchise.

 

[suejak]

They have been very up-front about that.

 

[GarfunkeL]

from day 1, yeah. And if that was Rob throwing a fit, what do you call when VD went on a rampage?

 

[Infinitron]

Hormalakh's post: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62969-sawyerism-and-high-level-design/

 

[Blaine]

Here's my take on it, Infinitron:

Spoiler

The developers write a manual.

Spoiler

The players read that manual.

Spoiler

If some players can't infer how to manipulate core game mechanics through the application of minimal brainpower, they are functionally retarded and should choke to death on their own vomit.

That post (and Sawyer's musings) are all very well conceived and written, but it ultimately boils down to impatient, functionally illiterate subhumans who have to sprint around everywhere furiously masturbating, Tweeting that they took a shit, checking their iPhone every three minutes, and impulsively snapping pictures of cats and food. If these people were all gassed by the reincarnation of Hitler, I would have a week-long orgasm.

 

[Hormalakh]

The problem Blaine, is that Sawyer will start to build for those people. The furiously masturbating type. And then experts will be left to clean up their vomit-ridden shit-filled games. Something has to be done.

I've been thinking about this from last night and how not utilizing the manual really should be grounds for "don't give a fuck." At the end of the day, it didn't really affect me: I was able to figure out most of the rest of the stuff myself. But playing PnP did make BG2 a richer experience (shit there are actually things called Drow and people play this stuff in RL! I wonder if all that shit Haer D'alis was saying could actually make sense? What's this "Planescape?" OMFG) I think that players who do have a half-decent manual have a lot going for them, and those who don't use it, are ultimately losing out not because the developers did anything wrong. If they don't RTFM, then that's their fault. Devs shouldn't design for them. But if certain concepts and topics don't make sense to a majority of your players (those that actually RTFM) then there is something wrong with the way you wrote it. A lot of these games are concepts building on other concepts. Either we let the newfags in on a few secrets, and still watch them struggle, or we leave them out there without some toilet paper to wipe themselves. We don't get any decent newfags who enjoy RPGs.

I'm not saying make the game easy or retarded; just keep in mind not everyone is an oldfag. Manuals are only one step towards re-educating the manboons.

 

[Jasede]

That's the sad thing you hinted at there...
We never needed to read the manual. It was easy enough to figure these things out because by gum, these games weren't rocket science.

That isn't to say as younger people we didn't love reading manuals. Still, I'm sure a lot of you had some pirated games given to you by your big brother, with no manual or anything, and you still played them comfortably: Syndicate, Theme Hospital, Dungeon Keeper and so on. It's easy enough to pick these things up just by paying a bit of attention.

 

[Hormalakh]

Yeah, Jasede seriously... Sawyer shouldn't be building games for these kinds of people:

I think many of you would be blown away by how often players will look directly at a description of an option, pause, seem to analyze it, and then select it without putting 2 and 2 together until much later.

When that happens and the error results in, let's say, ~15 minutes of lost time, as a designer I go, "Hey dummy, pay attention." When that happens and the error goes unnoticed for 5... 10... 20 hours, the problem is so far in the past that I would rather just sigh and slide an emergency exit button toward them.

As a non-system-related example, in Fallout: New Vegas, we pop up a message box before the end of the game. It says (paraphrased) HEY MAN THIS IS THE END OF THE GAME. IF YOU WANT TO KEEP PLAYING, YOU SHOULD NOT START THIS. BECAUSE IT IS THE END. AND THE GAME WILL BE OVER. Even so, a huge number of people missed it or claimed to have missed it, so we later had to hard-code in an extra auto-save game at that point.

I could take some sort of grumpy tough-guy attitude and say "Well, tough poo poo," but I don't think that's beneficial to me or the player.

But what to do? I mean Sawyer says its not beneficial to him or the player. But what if his design of the game around that player, breaks it for all his other players?

 

[hiver]

Idiocracy happening right before your eyes.

The number of intellectually lazy people is simply greater than the opposite. In the blind economy system based on profit, that we have - only the end result counts.
Therefore it adapts itself to the majority and the amount of money.


btw ive never read a single manual, never played any PnP, and yet i played most of famous crpgs just fine, never abusing the crutches or even knowing what some stats meant. Guess im a genius?
Nor do i think that crpgs are even trying to emulate PnP, despite people blathering about it, or that it is something they should be doing.

cRPGs became something different then PnP emulations. Despite drawing so much inspirations and mechanics from that system, despite early games trying to emulate some parts of it. Despite many devs being inspired by it.
A new form of gaming environment/media.

There is no going back either.
(NWN tried to do that and look how well loved it was and is - for it. TOEE tried to do it and it ended up being a lesser game because of it, superb TB combat and art notwithstanding).

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Guess im a genious?

This is almost too perfect. 100% hiverific.

 

[Hormalakh]

Anyway, yeah I agree. I think Fallout didn't have the same pitfalls that BG and its D&D based games had because they were new systems and decent, honest "geniouses" like you weren't expected to know a whole system. But a lot of the D&D games really did try to emulate to the best of their ability the PnP route. That's why we have crappy RTwP with rounds and all that.

Luckily, we're moving away from that and I think a lot of the issues I had with previous RPGs will diminish. But at the same time, I think that as an RPG continues down its sequels, a lot of things become more and more "accepted" and newer players go WTF. Maybe the retards playing FONV who needed the "end of game autosave" were playing based on how Fallout 3 was made and so they were in a different mindset. It's just something I think devs need to keep in mind.

Be right back, gotta go water my plants with some Brawndo. It's got electrolytes I hear.

 

[Infinitron]

Funny thing is Fallout 3 also went into endgame mode without warning you.

 

[Blaine]

Hormalakh: Fallout was originally meant to utilize GURPS 3rd Edition, which is (or was, back when I played tabletop RPGs) my favorite system. It was skill-based, generic, modular and easy to tailor to one's needs with a bit of work.

But in 1996, FUCKING CHRISTIANS ( FretRider and Humanity has risen!, this means you) thought RPGs were the Devil, as seen in Jack Chick tracts. They still do think that, but in the mid-nineties it was a much bigger deal.

For that reason, Steve Jackson of Steve Jackson Games decided not to associate GURPS with Fallout, because there was too much violence, drug abuse, cursing, evil cults, and so on in the game. Thus was born S.P.E.C.I.A.L.

 

[hiver]

A simple Firefox spell checker mistake to look over, for someone who isnt native to englimsh. But i guess Twinklie must get any ego boost he can.

Maybe brawndo will help in realizing that spelling mistake doesnt really fit. Though i doubt it.
-
Btw, Fallout had the same "pitfalls" as BG and others, proven by tonnes of complaints about the most silly stuff which can be understood without any manual or tutorial, based solely on playing the game and seeing what works and what doesnt.

 

[Hormalakh]

HAHA. We're mixing religion and RPGs. Isn't that /gd/? But yes, you're right: it was supposed to be GURPS, but I'm glad it wasn't. I think part of Fallout's success was having its own system.

It's also ironic, because I played Fallout 2 before playing Fallout 1 and had no trouble with the system. I played Fallout 1 many years later.

I'm not sure what the hell it was with D&D...

hiver....wait you weren't being ironic with the word "genious?" Dammit I thought you were. I guess you should never assume anything about anyone's intelligence.

 

[Grunker]

GURPS 3rd Edition, which is [...] my favorite system.

4th edition is an improvement, but since you don't play P&P anymore, you're excused for that slight oversight.

 

[Guido Fawkes]

Hormalakh: Fallout was originally meant to utilize GURPS 3rd Edition, which is (or was, back when I played tabletop RPGs) my favorite system. It was skill-based, generic, modular and easy to tailor to one's needs with a bit of work.

But in 1996, FUCKING CHRISTIANS ( FretRider and Humanity has risen!, this means you) thought RPGs were the Devil, as seen in Jack Chick tracts. They still do think that, but in the mid-nineties it was a much bigger deal.

For that reason, Steve Jackson of Steve Jackson Games decided not to associate GURPS with Fallout, because there was too much violence, drug abuse, cursing, evil cults, and so on in the game. Thus was born S.P.E.C.I.A.L.

What a load of baloney. Interplay abandoned GURPS because of pricing issues with the license. Even I know that.

 

[Grunker]

How fortunate that this very Forum has conducted an interview with Sean Punch, the line editor of GURPS, asking him about this very concern!:

Fallout 1 was initially supposed to utilize GURPS for its rule system, but in the end it did not. The only information we have been able to find on the subject is that SJ Games were concerned about the amount of blood and gore in the game. Can you tell us more about why a GURPS Fallout failed to happen?

SP: Ultimately, the issue was that the license didn't word the approval process in a way that was good for either party, and it was simply easier to design a new RPG engine than to redo the licensing agreement and all of the approvals. That might sound extreme, but the RPG elements of a CRPG are minor next to the storyboards, level designs, visuals, audio, and all that other good stuff. Whether the specific concern that led to the discovery of the approval issue was somebody at SJ Games disliking blood and gore, I cannot say -- I did not then and do not now handle licensing, and I never saw so much as a screenshot at the time. I can say that geeky guys at my own pay grade on both sides regretted seeing the plug pulled, but apparently my bosses and their bosses viewed that as the right move for financial reasons. To this day, I remain skeptical of claims that a single cut scene, loading screen, dialog line, etc. caused the parting of ways.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=8172

There seems to be little support for either of your claims, though incidentally a bit for FretRider's.

 

[Hormalakh]

Stick to the fucking topic. Keep your religion discussions in GD. Thanks.