Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Delterius]

i really don't think you guys are getting it. this inventory isn't a step down. it's actually a step up. choices you make in managing inventory with his system actually matter (when they're supposed to) - in dungeons and combat situations. there isn't a logical reason why he would limit access to gear otherwise. and hence, why he is doing it this way.

you CAN access the loot that matters BUT ONLY if you put it in TOP OF STASH. If you think it doesn't matter, stash it. If you thnik it matters, then TOP OF STASH IT or EQUIP it. IF you don't have TOP OF STASH space, then you gotta stash something to make space for it. otherwise you go back to camp before you can use that unidentified sword.

Force the game to un-pause when you access the inventory window. Bam, the IE games force you to use the quickslots wisely.

The stash's purpose is so you can loot everything that isn't bolted and sell it for minimum, pointless, profit.

 

[evdk]

Hormalakh
As I have mentioned previously, to put my aspie tendencies to rest I need some explanation for this stash mechanic that I would not deem completely retarded. Otherwise I find the inventory design pretty meh, but nothing to riot about. I certainly don't mind the shared out of combat inventory. If the inventory turns out to be a list one though, I will lead the mob myself :D

 

[Hormalakh]

yeah... the unpause thing was a great idea. that didn't piss people off to no end.

 

[Delterius]

yeah... the unpause thing was a great idea. that didn't piss people off to no end.

I don't think it actually happened, hence why it didn't piss anyone. And if it did, you can always add X more quickslots - though it would be unnecessary, IMO.

Nonetheless, the argument is that you can add thinking to inventory management without everything Sawyer is doing.

 

[Kirtai]

STASHing stuff is magically a silent and safe procedure, while UNSTASHing is a noise, time consuming and dangerous process, gotcha.

It's kinda reminding me of the bags of holding from the Ethshar books. You can easily shove stuff in them quickly but only the most recent item is accessible. If you want item 9 of the 300+ you put in, better have some time and space to pull out everything after it.

 

[Hormalakh]

Delterius it pissed me off. AND yes it did happen. they tried that.

evdk "Hey guys can you hold up while I look for my long sword +1 in my backpack. it will only take 10 minutes. I gotta dump everything out...HEY GUYS WHERE YOU GOING?! JUST WAIT UPPPPPP!! What do you mean I should have been prepared? It's in here somewhere isn't it?"

 

[Delterius]

Delterius it pissed me off

Why?

 

[Captain Shrek]

It depends on what you mean by junk loot - if you mean true worthless filler trash, then I have no argument - get rid of it.

On the other hand, there can be a purpose to having lots of, say, iron daggers available - by hiding the valuable items in a pile of non-valuable items, we don't put a big blinking light over something saying "This is important!" (Think some of the Gold Box games where much of the time you had to have to guess, try to carry everything, or make sure you had the appropriate non-combat spell ready in order to tell which of those long swords / daggers, if any, was special.).

Removing the extra 'iron daggers' in this case would remove that decision making regarding if it is worth it to use non-combat identification abilities/spells/items in place of options that would help you in a fight and/or trying to figure out from the pile of loot if it makes sense to use those abilities or if there is other information you can glean to pick out the special or useful equipment without them.

Not getting rid of it, though, leads to some people being OCD about collecting and selling as much as possible. Of course, I don't think that just making a place where you can dump everything and sort it out later is the best solution to that "problem".

I would say that this entire Finding good item in a pile of trash idea is not nice. Simply because it smacks of a mini game and a bad minigame at that. Removing such things completely is in line with reducing annoyance.

 

[Jaesun]

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

What if they called the stash a bag of holding [ETA: just saw Kirtai beat me to this and did it better. curses.].

Or they said you have a permanent, if small, one-way stash portal powered by souls or whatever.

Here's how you deal with the OCD looter problem; every piece of equipment held by enemies is dropped for looting, down to their underwear, but there's a very high chance its so busted up you have to repair it to sell it and it will cost as much to repair as you would get selling it fully repaired. Worth keeping if its useful, but not as a profit source.

After all, if you've just stabbed a dude to death, his armor is probably shit (if it wasn't shit already).

 

[Captain Shrek]

How about this:

Make it a dialogue/interaction option:

There is a pileand on encountering it, a dialogue tells you what you see and if you have the right spell/ability ready you make the right choice or else pick up the trash.

 

[evdk]

Delterius it pissed me off. AND yes it did happen. they tried that.

evdk "Hey guys can you hold up while I look for my long sword +1 in my backpack. it will only take 10 minutes. I gotta dump everything out...HEY GUYS WHERE YOU GOING?! JUST WAIT UPPPPPP!! What do you mean I should have been prepared? It's in here somewhere isn't it?"

So, lads, if we really want to take on the Red Dragon, we should maybe take our fire resistant gear out of storage. So let's just stop for a few minutes and get it from the bags... guys? Guys?
*five minutes later*
THE FIRE IT BUUUURNS!

Oh shush, you!

 

[tuluse]

BG1 couldn't be paused while looking at the inventory. I think all other IE games you could.

 

[Delterius]

Delterius it pissed me off

Why?

I'm not actually just trying to annoy you, I'm going somewhere with this.

It depends on what you mean by junk loot - if you mean true worthless filler trash, then I have no argument - get rid of it.

On the other hand, there can be a purpose to having lots of, say, iron daggers available - by hiding the valuable items in a pile of non-valuable items, we don't put a big blinking light over something saying "This is important!" (Think some of the Gold Box games where much of the time you had to have to guess, try to carry everything, or make sure you had the appropriate non-combat spell ready in order to tell which of those long swords / daggers, if any, was special.).

Removing the extra 'iron daggers' in this case would remove that decision making regarding if it is worth it to use non-combat identification abilities/spells/items in place of options that would help you in a fight and/or trying to figure out from the pile of loot if it makes sense to use those abilities or if there is other information you can glean to pick out the special or useful equipment without them.

Not getting rid of it, though, leads to some people being OCD about collecting and selling as much as possible. Of course, I don't think that just making a place where you can dump everything and sort it out later is the best solution to that "problem".

I would say that this entire Finding good item in a pile of trash idea is not nice. Simply because it smacks of a mini game and a bad minigame at that. Removing such things completely is in line with reducing annoyance.

Agreed, but I think something of his point still stands. When a bandit dies and you can actually interact with all of his equipment, it adds to the atmosphere of the game. Makes it less artificial. And the devs could do something with it, even though his example wasn't the best.

Removing less useful loot doesn't seem like a interesting solution to it and I still find it silly that anyone ever tried to loot everything in the IE games. Most of it was junk in the form of noob weapons. Essentially, this is a non issue.

 

[Hormalakh]

Or have merchants not buy your trash like Arcanum did. Or maybe they run out of money. Like Arcanum did.

evdk "Dude we knew we were going to be in Dragon's cavern. We all already equipped our fire armor. Why are you so fucking slow?" ANY SORT of reason could work. If you need several armors lay them out in your top of stash. Otherwise everything else is going into the unholy cesspool and abyss of STASH.

Delterius I know you're trying to make a point. the guys at codex are pretty smart. they already got your point.

 

[Delterius]

Here's how you deal with the OCD looter problem; every piece of equipment held by enemies is dropped for looting, down to their underwear, but there's a very high chance its so busted up you have to repair it to sell it and it will cost as much to repair as you would get selling it fully repaired. Worth keeping if its useful, but not as a profit source.

After all, if you've just stabbed a dude to death, his armor is probably shit (if it wasn't shit already).

Sounds like the codexian solution to CRPG Romance, starve 'em to death. Sounds interesting.

 

[Grunker]

This debate is a prime example of why fixing shit that ain't broken is a terrible idea.

 

[Delterius]

Heh.

This Immersion argument does not stand up to a serious inquiry.

Every bandit can not be interesting. Neither through the immersion argument you'd really go through all his gear every time you kill one.

Well, you do go through all their gear every time you loot their pocket for arrows, gold coins or possible jewelry. And I just think that people kinda expect that from the IE successor.

I know you're trying to make a point. the guys at codex are pretty smart. they already got your point.

Are you sure? Its the internet, people only get your point when they agree with you. So you scream it in different ways until your superior intellect and taste is finally revealed.

 

[evdk]

evdk "Dude we knew we were going to be in Dragon's cavern. We all already equipped our fire armor. Why are you so fucking slow?" ANY SORT of reason could work.

You have not mentioned one that would not be dumb yet.
There is only one solution left now:

 

[Hormalakh]

It's not "fixing." It's implementing game ideas.Strategy and tactics. C&C. Shit we want.

I really think that camping will be very different than in other IE games. I think he's going for a darklands approach. Camping will be a big deal with people having to stand watch, and people resting, and people memorizing spells, and going through your stash. There'll be a picture of a campsite in the background and you'll get a list of options of things to do.

Like I said, I don't think the actual reason is important. Shrek doesn't care about realism. evdk does. Who the fuck should Sawyer listen to?

The way I see it, it gives a good "perk" option for players later in the game. Something like "be able to open stash outside of camp."

 

[Grunker]

Dreaming are we?

 

[Captain Shrek]

Heh.

This Immersion argument does not stand up to a serious inquiry.

Every bandit can not be interesting. Neither through the immersion argument you'd really go through all his gear every time you kill one.

Well, you do go through all their gear every time you loot their pocket for arrows, gold coins or possible jewelry. And I just think that people kinda expect that from the IE successor.

Are you not changing the argument? First you argued that this is required for immersion. When pointed out that this does not hold, you put up an argument that it is justified from IE games. I think it was wrong in IE games too but much less wrong because of the dearth of magical items.

 

[Hormalakh]

Dreaming are we?

Nope, he's said stuff to this effect already. Roguey can you help me out here? I need sources. I know you got them. he's talked about goign this approach, hasn't he?

Edit: I sent him a question on Formspring. He probably won't answer, but it's worth a shot.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

Or have merchants not buy your trash like Arcanum did. Or maybe they run out of money. Like Arcanum did.

That would work too. The key point is the hight chance of the equipment turning into trash via breaking in the fight, which I don't think I've seen used to discourage OCD looting (I was inspired by my recent IW2 game, where there's a quest involving returning some bracers to a goblin. If you kill the goblin afterwards the bracers end up broken. [actually they break as soon as you return them, as I learned through pickpocketing])

Merchants running out of money works too, which leads to the cash/barter combination which I think was referred to earlier in the threat. Nethack and Fallout jump out as games that used this pretty well too.

 

[Delterius]

Heh.

This Immersion argument does not stand up to a serious inquiry.

Every bandit can not be interesting. Neither through the immersion argument you'd really go through all his gear every time you kill one.

Well, you do go through all their gear every time you loot their pocket for arrows, gold coins or possible jewelry. And I just think that people kinda expect that from the IE successor.

Are you not changing the argument? First you argued that this is required for immersion. When pointed out that this does not hold, you put up an argument that it is justified from IE games. I think it was wrong in IE games too but much less wrong because of the dearth of magical items.

Not really, I'm still arguing that it adds to the game's atmosphere, but there are far too many ways for the developer to detail the gameworld. Meaning that not one of these ways should be held as special or necessary, especially something as small as this (which is where I agree with you, immersion arguments rarely hold water). However, I wonder if its not a basic funcionality that people expect from a IE successor.

Dreaming are we?

Nope, he's said stuff to this effect already. Roguey can you help me out here? I need sources. I know you got them. he's talked about goign this approach, hasn't he?

As far as I know, he wants to improve the resting mechanics. But nothing so detailed.