Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Arkeus]

The entire savecumming argument that culminates into this view Arkeus, is fallacious.

We do NOT play games to be punished but rather to enjoy them. Challenge is a part of SOME of these games. Save-reload exists to prohibit completely out of hand mistakes and NOT escaping some statistics. That can easily be solved WITHOUT all the mucking about with game mechanics by clever encounter design.

Yes. And adding something like "probability of enemy appearing on clicking rest button" or "probability of character dying on trying yo disarm trap" is BAD encounter design.

 

[Tigranes]

I agree that they should be using this opportunity (of no D&D) to actually make melee fighting interesting. At the very least they should buck the trend wherein fighters only ever deal HP damage, or at best, imitate the kind of status effects and other types of damage non-fighters can do. This is where stamina/health dynamic can be used for the good kind of complexity as well. I would be pretty disappointed if they passed up this opportunity - it's the kind of 'innovation' that should really have been done before, but hasn't except in bits and pieces.

Stamina/health can become a euphemism for Halo-like shields & KOTOR autoresurrection, or it can become a challenging and complex mechanic that fits well. It depends on the specifics (and the differences between Normal & Hard+Expert). I'd like to see it done well, e.g. where losing health actually translates into a fearful attrition, reviving stamina-downed party members is actually hard (and not 'walk over there and cast my basic stamina-heal spell and oop they're back again'), etc. At the moment I can see it tipping into either side, which is to say I like the potential of the idea, but not everything that's been said about it fills me with confidence.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

Will he implement grapples, trips, disarming, feints, acrobatics ? No. Instead we will have soul powered falcon punches, omni slashes and other comic book shenanigans.

That's what you don't actually know anything about yet. And even so, an omni slash could just be a whirlwind attack, and a falcon punch just like that monk feat.

Well, could be. We don't know, neither mechanics or names. Again you are raging at a construct of your own wild imagination.

 

[Shadenuat]

Stamina is NOT a bad mechanics. Regenerating stamina IN combat is.

Not if regular and special attacks would actually use a large chunk of it.

 

[Arkeus]

I would certainly say so. I just don't like your 'colorful' left/right analogy.

*cough cough* this isn't my analogy, you might have confused me with someone else.

 

[Hormalakh]

I agree that they should be using this opportunity (of no D&D) to actually make melee fighting interesting. At the very least they should buck the trend wherein fighters only ever deal HP damage, or at best, imitate the kind of status effects and other types of damage non-fighters can do. This is where stamina/health dynamic can be used for the good kind of complexity as well. I would be pretty disappointed if they passed up this opportunity - it's the kind of 'innovation' that should really have been done before, but hasn't except in bits and pieces.

Stamina/health can become a euphemism for Halo-like shields & KOTOR autoresurrection, or it can become a challenging and complex mechanic that fits well. It depends on the specifics (and the differences between Normal & Hard+Expert). I'd like to see it done well, e.g. where losing health actually translates into a fearful attrition, reviving stamina-downed party members is actually hard (and not 'walk over there and cast my basic stamina-heal spell and oop they're back again'), etc. At the moment I can see it tipping into either side, which is to say I like the potential of the idea, but not everything that's been said about it fills me with confidence.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Tigranes]

Stamina is NOT a bad mechanics. Regenerating stamina IN combat is. Stamina has been used Brilliantly before. Here as of now all it appears to do is to become another gauge of hitpoint capacity. If that is changed to rather more resource/action FOR EXAMPLE LIKE IN DARKLANDS it might work. Although to be honest this is just one of the problems

I agree in that I can't see where stamina regenerating in combat is positive in and of itself. I don't, however, see it as a gamebreaker unless it was ridiculously high; in that case it would make most other aspects of the system trivial. My current guess is that stamina regenerates and is relatively easy to heal in the current iteration because (1) stamina gets taken down very fast - e.g. taking down 100 stamina is much, much easier than knocking off 100 HP in an IE game; (2) the 100 stamina you just lost might be relatively easy to recover, but the 50? 30? 20? whatever health you lost at the same time, you are going to have to carry for the rest of the dungeon, and it is significant.

In other words, a dogmatic "stamina regenerates? FUCKKKKK" makes no sense, we have to see how the components work together. Is stamina regeneration something that trivialises other mechanisms (e.g. so that even KOs rarely happen, or stamina healing is way too easy)? Is stamina regeneration a supporting mechanism in order to ensure that stamina is very easily depleted, and to more clearly differentiate between pretty much expendable stamina damage and serious business health damage? And, of course, could the latter positive aspects be implemented without having to resort to stamina regeneration, or would it, for example, be too brutal otherwise?

Without knowing more, what I think I'd like is for each class's basic stamina healing ability to be augmented, if necessary, for balance, rather than have stamina regeneration in battle. Or at least, defer the latter ability into learned passives / actives. Having it as a given doesn't seem necessary.

 

[Shadenuat]

It probably will lead to kiting all all other games that have this regen.

Sawyer stated he wanted to do something with kiting, although I don't see kiting as evil; it is as viable tactic as any other. Ancient mongols say hello.

I don't, however, see it as a gamebreaker unless it was ridiculously high

It would probably be that way outside of combat as an implementation of "5 minutes rest", while in combat abilities with cooldowns and daily abilities will handle spikes in it's regeneration.

 

[Lord Andre]

Will he implement grapples, trips, disarming, feints, acrobatics ? No. Instead we will have soul powered falcon punches, omni slashes and other comic book shenanigans.

That's what you don't actually know anything about yet. And even so, an omni slash could just be a whirlwind attack, and a falcon punch just like that monk feat.

Well, could be. We don't know, neither mechanics or names. Again you are raging at a construct of your own wild imagination.

It's an opinion based on an educated guess you fucking twat. The whole point of the thread is SPECULATING about Obsidian's upcoming game. SPECULATING, you dumb bitch, not fapping blindly about it.

 

[undecaf]

Do we know how fast the regen is or what controls it (and the total amount of stamina)?

Surely, they'd not make it something that goes constantly visibly up and down like a yo-yo during combat.

Who knows, though.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

Will he implement grapples, trips, disarming, feints, acrobatics ? No. Instead we will have soul powered falcon punches, omni slashes and other comic book shenanigans.

That's what you don't actually know anything about yet. And even so, an omni slash could just be a whirlwind attack, and a falcon punch just like that monk feat.

Well, could be. We don't know, neither mechanics or names. Again you are raging at a construct of your own wild imagination.

It's an opinion based on an educated guess you fucking twat. The whole point of the thread is SPECULATING about Obsidian's upcoming game. SPECULATING, you dumb bitch, not fapping blindly about it.

You weren't speculating you fucking tard, you are very obnoxiously and retardedly stating tonnes of unsupported statements without ever adding a qualifier such as "may" or "most likely" or even reasons why you think this. That's not educated guessing, nor speculating, that's just blind raging, which is a common thing to do for newfags that wants to fit in.

 

[Shadenuat]

Realism is a terrible argument.

"Fucktard" is't much better, but you seem to find it a worthy one. And it was't about people riding horses, but the fact that holding enemy somehow, retreating, regrouping, catching breath and fighting again is not unnatural for combat. The fact of kiting happens because of enemy AI and pathfinding, game mechanics is just something which can add to "degeneracy".

 

[Lord Andre]

Will he implement grapples, trips, disarming, feints, acrobatics ? No. Instead we will have soul powered falcon punches, omni slashes and other comic book shenanigans.

That's what you don't actually know anything about yet. And even so, an omni slash could just be a whirlwind attack, and a falcon punch just like that monk feat.

Well, could be. We don't know, neither mechanics or names. Again you are raging at a construct of your own wild imagination.

It's an opinion based on an educated guess you fucking twat. The whole point of the thread is SPECULATING about Obsidian's upcoming game. SPECULATING, you dumb bitch, not fapping blindly about it.

You weren't speculating you fucking tard, you are very obnoxiously and retardedly stating tonnes of unsupported statements without ever adding a qualifier such as "may" or "most likely" or even reasons why you think this. That's not educated guessing, nor speculating, that's just blind raging, which is a common thing to do for newfags that wants to fit in.

Look you stupid broad, if that's what you think, it's your fucking opinion, but it's fucking annoying when you try to silence others for speaking their piece. Now fuck off back to the kitchen.

 

[Shadenuat]

You in fact admit that it is degenerate because of AI or any other reason.

I admit that there exist natural, strategic kiting and exploitable, degenerative kiting. Regenerating stamina does't mean first would instantly turn into the second, unless every monster in game will have less speed than CHARNAME with bow and boots of speed with some sort of infinite root spell.
Baldur's Gate did not have regenerating stamina, but one could solo it with a sling/bow or whatever.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

Silencing retards is fucking essential for a good forum. Of course I will tell an idiot that his opinion is stupid, that's what this site is founded upon. Also you need to update your herostratus.txt

 

[Captain Shrek]

You in fact admit that it is degenerate because of AI or any other reason.

I admit that there exist natural, strategic kiting and exploitable, degenerative kiting. Regenerating stamina does't mean first would instantly turn into the second, unless every monster in game will have less speed than CHARNAME with bow and boots of speed with some sort of infinite root spell.
Baldur's Gate did not have regenerating stamina, but one could solo it with a sling/bow or whatever.

That is because of another issue I have. Which is real time games. These games make time a resource. The more time you can spend WITHOUT getting hurt the more time you can cause damage.

TB games don't/can't allow this. In IE games because of the area design you have an opportunity to run away from combat most of the time to actually pull off Kiting without regen. In regen games this might (And does) become worse since now you don't need to exist areas or use 'squad tactics (two guys kiting)' to accomplish the same.

 

[Lord Andre]

Silencing retards is fucking essential for a good forum. Of course I will tell an idiot that his opinion is stupid, that's what this site is founded upon. Also you need to update your herostratus.txt

Shut up. Your opinion is stupid. Done and done.

 

[Shadenuat]

TB games don't/can't allow this.

Debatable. Some do, particularly ones where you have control over growth of the amount of actions character could take. You can easely kite in Fallout, for example. Arcanum added stamina to that (a regenerating one!), which actually made more sense cause now you could not run and gun forever and every shot from you, and in you, drained stamina (let's leave the fact that everything was shit because 742 stamina potions).

In regen games this might (And does) become worse since now you don't need to exist areas or use 'squad tactics (two guys kiting)' to accomplish the same.

Why? Because "regenerating shield"? Potions do the same. And do we even know if stamina in PE will regenerate _on the move_? Maybe regen will just stop when you run, like in Diablo 2.

 

[Tigranes]

I agree in that I can't see where stamina regenerating in combat is positive in and of itself. I don't, however, see it as a gamebreaker unless it was ridiculously high; in that case it would make most other aspects of the system trivial. My current guess is that stamina regenerates and is relatively easy to heal in the current iteration because (1) stamina gets taken down very fast - e.g. taking down 100 stamina is much, much easier than knocking off 100 HP in an IE game; (2) the 100 stamina you just lost might be relatively easy to recover, but the 50? 30? 20? whatever health you lost at the same time, you are going to have to carry for the rest of the dungeon, and it is significant.

In other words, a dogmatic "stamina regenerates? FUCKKKKK" makes no sense, we have to see how the components work together. Is stamina regeneration something that trivialises other mechanisms (e.g. so that even KOs rarely happen, or stamina healing is way too easy)? Is stamina regeneration a supporting mechanism in order to ensure that stamina is very easily depleted, and to more clearly differentiate between pretty much expendable stamina damage and serious business health damage? And, of course, could the latter positive aspects be implemented without having to resort to stamina regeneration, or would it, for example, be too brutal otherwise?

Without knowing more, what I think I'd like is for each class's basic stamina healing ability to be augmented, if necessary, for balance, rather than have stamina regeneration in battle. Or at least, defer the latter ability into learned passives / actives. Having it as a given doesn't seem necessary.

The argument is NOT as simple. If you read the thread a lot of posts talk about why regen is a probelm by itself.

Heh. Sure.

 

[Captain Shrek]

TB games don't/can't allow this.

Debatable. Some do, particularly ones where you have control over growth of the amount of actions character could take. You can easely kite in Fallout, for example. Arcanum added stamina to that (a regenerating one!), which actually made more sense cause now you could not run and gun forever and every shot from you, and in you, drained stamina (let's leave the fact that everything was shit because 742 stamina potions).

In regen games this might (And does) become worse since now you don't need to exist areas or use 'squad tactics (two guys kiting)' to accomplish the same.

Why? Because "regenerating shield"? Potions do the same. And do we even know if stamina in PE will regenerate _on the move_? Maybe regen will just stop when you run, like in Diablo 2.

I admit that Kiting was possible in Fallout and that was BAD. I can't buy the potions argument because that is sheer poor design to allow it to be used so. There are a lot of ways of stopping that. Like in Witcher where the game simply did NOT allow you to drink potions mid combat. Please understand that I am NOT defending any of the older games against PE.

Maybe regen will just stop when you run, like in Diablo 2

Well that is certainly NOT the direction I would like to see PE go anyway. Although i would prefer NO regen at all and the simple solution of better encounter design.

 

[Rostere]

TB games don't/can't allow this.

Debatable. Some do, particularly ones where you have control over growth of the amount of actions character could take. You can easely kite in Fallout, for example. Arcanum added stamina to that (a regenerating one!), which actually made more sense cause now you could not run and gun forever and every shot from you, and in you, drained stamina (let's leave the fact that everything was shit because 742 stamina potions).

Yes, I was just going to post about how I thought the Stamina system in Arcanum made a lot of sense. Now balancing it, on the other hand...

 

[Grunker]

As for potions, what the fuck is wrong with BG's approach? Healings potions are sub-par and cost a round to use. Emergencies only.

oh right no rounds gg

 

[tuluse]

As for potions, what the fuck is wrong with BG's approach? Healings potions are sub-par and cost a round to use. Emergencies only.

oh right no rounds gg

You don't need rounds to emulate this. Just making drinking a potion take enough time.

 

[Shadenuat]

oh right no rounds gg

but COOLdowns

 

[Shadenuat]

Is there something I am not getting right?

The fact that you're one leg into plane of insanity to name one

On a more a serious note - what applause? People flock around Sawyer picking on his body at every hint of change from IE roots.
Who really pledged to Obsidian expecting a great combat mechanics?
And why stamina instantly turns RTwP into dirty rogue for you?