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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

Hormalakh

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Sawyer on Miss and Hit V. 2.0

PE will have control-loss effects (stuns/roots/charms), though their durations will probably not be as long as A/D&D counterparts (which are often really, really long).



Last week, we implemented a full miss mechanic at the bottom end of graze, as I described earlier in the thread. It's really an "out of bounds" effect and doesn't occur often unless the difference between the attacker's Accuracy and the target's defense is large. This would allow you to build a "dodge" or "block" oriented character that boosts avoidance and that was the primary motivating factor in introducing the mechanic (supporting a character concept). Damage is still pretty heavily normalized since misses are the exception and only start becoming more common as full hits become less likely (which also makes critical hits impossible). At the other end of the spectrum, if the attacker has a large Accuracy advantage over the target defense, misses become impossible and critical hits become more common.



Think of Accuracy vs. defenses as being a sliding window where perfectly matched values result in a small chance to fully miss, a small chance to critically hit, and large chances to hit and graze. As the Accuracy and defenses move out of alignment, the worst and best cases shift in a directly proportional fashion. The typical "attacker is outclassed" situation will result in a lot of grazes, some hits, some misses, no crits. The typical "defender is outlcassed" situation will result in a lot of hits, some crits, some grazes, no misses.

....

Even when an attacker's Accuracy is completely outclassed by the target's defense, there's always a 5% chance to score a (normal) hit. In the opposite direction, even the greatest Accuracy advantage still allows a 5% chance to graze.

....

PE's crits are not currently ultra-devastating because it's 150% max damage and the damage ranges are smaller than they are in A/D&D. Crits are still powerful, but don't compare to a 3E max damage greataxe crit.

From OEI forums. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63091-josh-sawyer-on-miss-and-hit/page-16
 

Hormalakh

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The conversation continues there. You can join us or if you guys have specific questions and don't have OEI forums/can't be bothered, I can ask them. Lemme know. He left.

Q:
How is this playing Josh, as compared to what you had before? Do you find this to be more or less fun than it was without misses at all?

A:
It hasn't currently had a big impact on "fun feel" in part because the target Accuracy/defense values are pretty close in our test level. Personally, I don't think it will dramatically change the extreme imbalance situations because everything's skewed in either system. Attacking a target with high defenses in the hopes that your low Accuracy grazes will wear it down wasn't much of a viable strategy before; it becomes less so in this system.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Can you ask if the game is going to have magic or special attacks that use touch AC or something similar?
 

imweasel

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Yeah, this is way better. Major Incline. :D

They also implemented it rather quickly after all the whining started.M:
 

Roguey

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This would allow you to build a "dodge" or "block" oriented character that boosts avoidance and that was the primary motivating factor in introducing the mechanic (supporting a character concept).
I like how he keeps emphasizing this. All "Armchair people take a hike, role players can stay."
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I have yet to see him write about supporting my character concept for a wizened old wizard who can't hit hard enough to damage but can get his hands on his enemies for touch attacks.
:rpgcodex:
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/416717326558184002

Josh Sawyer said:
What is your support for unarmed combat shaping up like? The idea of playing an unarmed karate master in most RPGs seems really appealing but I usually end up disappointed because your fists don't have stats or the ability pool is low.
Monks can use "normal" weapons but their default unequipped weapon state is different from other characters. I.e., their unarmed attacks have elevated stats that make them a viable (and attractive) alternative to using other weapons.

PE monks aren't quasi-Asian, though they are unarmed fighters and tend to wear light or no armor. They aren't considered exotic in the Dyrwood and other than their unarmed fighting techniques, they do not use special weapons.

Many of their special abilities are unlocked via mortification of the flesh, i.e. as they take incoming Stamina damage, they immediately convert a portion of it into a resource they can use to power things like stun attacks. Damage absorbed in this way does not influence Health and is a motivating factor for ability-oriented monk characters to wear lighter (or no) armor, though they can certainly be overpowered by heavily damaging attacks.
 

Hormalakh

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I like how he keeps emphasizing this. All "Armchair people take a hike, role players can stay."

Yeah I appreciate that he listens to people.

I have yet to see him write about supporting my character concept for a wizened old wizard who can't hit hard enough to damage but can get his hands on his enemies for touch attacks.
:rpgcodex:

I think there was a discussion about this a couple of months ago, but I can't find any evidence right now that he is trying to allow this character concept. I do think his iea that a mage wearing plate armor was along these lines: give them enough defense to survive a little at the front lines. Also his ideas about "accuracy" and how it works with defense seem to allow this as well. But don't quote me.
 

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I think there was a discussion about this a couple of months ago, but I can't find any evidence right now that he is trying to allow this character concept. I do think his iea that a mage wearing plate armor was along these lines: give them enough defense to survive a little at the front lines. Also his ideas about "accuracy" and how it works with defense seem to allow this as well. But don't quote me.

Well, if a touch magic attack hits with full power for both "grazes" and "hits", then that character concept should work nicely, yes.

Alternatively it could use an entirely separate to-hit system (unlikely), or even no to-hit system at all (ie it always hits, and the only risk is having to get up close)
 

Hormalakh

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A whole bunch of stuff being said. tuluse I asked your question, let's see if there's a response.

Yes, there will be a combat state.



Also, to build upon the previous comment re: crits when armor is high: crits do make a larger difference when armor is high, but they're effectively helping you to dig out of a hole. The most damage you'll do is in a situation where the target has no DT and you score a crit. Once DT starts being applied, your damage goes down linearly per-hit until it hits the minimum threshold. If you're already being maxed out by DT, a crit can help you bump out of that, but the best case is still going to be worse than if the target were wearing no armor.

...

I believe what I wrote before: a 150% max damage crit is not devastating. If the target had no armor, you'd be doing 21 damage on a hit vs. 9 (on average). 8 damage is a big jump from 1-2, but you're still doing less than average damage vs. a 0 DT target. Depending on what the circumstances are, you could achieve a similar (and more reliable) bump in damage over DT by using a two-handed weapon. If that's your damage when using a two-handed weapon, then yes, crits are pretty handy, but you're in a weird and uncommon circumstance.

....

tamina currently regenerates (very slowly) in combat, but we're likely to switch it to being post-combat only and very rapid. You'd have to rely on Stamina-healing abilities (e.g. the fighter's Surge [self only], priest's Recovery [AoE, lesser amount], or paladin's Revive [unconscious ally only, but immediately gives a big Stamina boost]) in combat, but would regain Stamina quickly once the combat state ended.



Some abilities or talents may help ameliorate the deficiencies of a certain damage type vs. armor, but our system doesn't reward hyperspecialization as in 2nd Ed. AD&D Combat & Tactics Mastery rules or 3E. I.e., you can't really be "heavily invested" in a specific type of weapon. Our specialization groups always bridge damage types, so if you have access to equivalent gear, there's not a negative incentive to equipping another type of weapon.



If you really want to have "the sword guy" who never switches to non-sword weapons, you're going to have to be more selective with what enemies he engages. In circumstances where every enemy is resistant to slashing weapons, you're going to be at a severe numerical disadvantage. One of the keys to designing good tactical encounters is to occasionally diminish a certain tactic so the player has to seek other approaches. If we allow you to build a big enough hammer that everything can be treated like a nail, that tactical element becomes irrelevant.



That said, our approach is not to say, "This is the tactic you must use now." as much as, "This is a bad tactic to use now." We believe the latter opens up more possibilities for the player than the former.

...

Well, I know I'm stretching your patience, Josh, but.. (you really don't have to answer)..

We know spells, based on the new update, will be or per encounter or per rest (seems cooldowns are out), but what about other abilities? Will they also be per encounter / per rest. For example fighter's Surge.

Cooldowns in the sense that most people use them were never really in. Per-encounter and per-rest will likely be the two common types of use limitations. A fighter's Surge would likely be (and is currently) per-encounter.

A lot said. Most of it needs context. here is that context. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63091-josh-sawyer-on-miss-and-hit/page-18 starts at page 16. don't waste your time reading earlier pages. a lot of arguing with nothing to show...hey that's like the Codex!
 

Captain Shrek

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Good. In combat regen of 'health' seems to be phased out. Tim Cain is starting to act up I guess.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Tim Cain? You mean the guy who designed games with such awesome systems like Fallout and Arcanum and most recently worked on an MMO before joining Obsidian? :smug:

Seriously, you people.
 

Roguey

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I'd say it's more like "they're playtesting and believe it will be more fun if it's done this other way" than a particular individual saying "Do it my way!"
 

Hormalakh

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I would rather haev Tim Cain any day of the week

I don't think Tim would go for you Captain Shrek, you're not his type. :lol:

On a more serious note, I've seen Tim's work and loved it. I haven't really play any of Josh's games. But reading through his comments and thoughts, I think I'd really like his games too. PE will pretty much tell me if Sawyer is worthy of the praise/criticism.
 

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If you really want to have "the sword guy" who never switches to non-sword weapons, you're going to have to be more selective with what enemies he engages. In circumstances where every enemy is resistant to slashing weapons, you're going to be at a severe numerical disadvantage. One of the keys to designing good tactical encounters is to occasionally diminish a certain tactic so the player has to seek other approaches. If we allow you to build a big enough hammer that everything can be treated like a nail, that tactical element becomes irrelevant.

This is music to my ears. Sweet, sweet, tactically-challenging and odd-character-build-justification music!
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I would rather haev Tim Cain any day of the week

I don't think Tim would go for you Captain Shrek, you're not his type. :lol:

On a more serious note, I've seen Tim's work and loved it. I haven't really play any of Josh's games. But reading through his comments and thoughts, I think I'd really like his games too. PE will pretty much tell me if Sawyer is worthy of the praise/criticism.

Meh, Sawyer has always been well respected on the Codex. There's a bit of revisionist history going on here these days, where he's been recast as this young upstart asshole that nobody ever really liked.

As for Tim, his games were first and foremost platforms for awesome content and C&C. Which is good, because those will also be the most important things in PE.
 

Hormalakh

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tuluse you have an answer:

saywer said:
Hey Josh, one more question: Is the game is going to have magic or special attacks that use touch AC or something similar? The idea here is to allow a character concept for a wizened old wizard who can't hit hard enough to damage but can get his hands on his enemies for touch attacks. Any thoughts?
PE wizards don't have a large inherent Accuracy gulf when it comes to melee attacks. In 3E/3.5, one of the reasons why AC becomes so inflated is because high BAB characters are making multiple attacks with -25% (typically) chance to hit per additional attack. In PE, some classes will have inherent (or purchased) Accuracy bonuses with certain attack/weapon types, but those bonuses will typically be static as levels increase. If a fighter and a wizard's melee accuracy are separated by N points at first level, they will likely be separated by something close to N points at higher levels (not accounting for optional specialization from Talents, better gear, etc.).



A separate touch AC isn't used in PE because armor doesn't directly contribute to standard melee/ranged defense (though shields do).

What's BAB?
 

Arkeus

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Base attack bonus. Basically BAB can be high (+1 every level), mid (15/20 iirc) or low (11/20 iirc), which means that as a Wizard level up he has more and more trouble using touch attack.
 

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