Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[sea]

Sawyer didn't say anything specifically about Unity, but he did say combat states can be tricky and he wanted to avoid situations were players could cheese their way into "ending" combat to regen their spells instantly.

There's really only two ways to handle this: stopping the player from leaving an area/resting while in combat or in a combat zone, or forcing the player into combat with all enemies in a pre-defined zone or squad until they are all dead. I'm not sure I like either. "Cheese tactics" aren't necessarily evil and in fact being able to lure enemies out one by one, provided they have some sort of intelligent defense mechanism against abuse (not just brute force rules), should be part of the game to facilitate more indirect play-styles than "all out battle all the time." Such things are almost necessary for stealth approaches for example, otherwise you just backstab and then you're fucked in having to fight 10 more guys because the team activated and got sic'd on your ass.

 

[Frusciante]

Just out of curiosity: where does the antipathy to Sawyer as a game/combat designer come from? Did he previously mess up some game's (IWD/IWD2?) combat system? Or is it just the combat design for PE that you guys dont like?

I'm not an expert on combat systems etc, I only know if I like it or not when I'm actually playing. But in general, isnt it impossible to say something meaningfull this early in development? I mean they will iterate on their design and change so much that we have no idea how its going to play when everything comes together. Also, Tim Cain is equally responsible for the combat design in PE. I think these two guys together should know how to design something good, right?

 

[Arkeus]

Sawyer has mentionned escape mechanics more than once in the kickstarter and on the forums, so i do think there are actually ways to get out of combat state.

 

[Excidium]

Sawyer has mentionned escape mechanics more than once in the kickstarter and on the forums, so i do think there are actually ways to get out of combat state.

Those escape mechanisms are to get out of melee engagements without the enemy getting free attacks.

 

[Arkeus]

Those escape mechanisms are to get out of melee engagements without the enemy getting free attacks.

Pretty sure he was talking about escaping in order to rest, or even escaping a dungeon.

 

[Infinitron]

Those escape mechanisms are to get out of melee engagements without the enemy getting free attacks.

Pretty sure he was talking about escaping in order to rest, or even escaping a dungeon.

He mentioned such things but he didn't call them "escape mechanics". He said it would be possible to retreat from combat. Just like it was possible in Baldur's Gate. That's hardly a "mechanic".

 

[Excidium]

Those escape mechanisms are to get out of melee engagements without the enemy getting free attacks.

Pretty sure he was talking about escaping in order to rest, or even escaping a dungeon.

What escape abilities are you talking about? I'm referring to this update http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/415136

 

[Brayko]

Just out of curiosity: where does the antipathy to Sawyer as a game/combat designer come from? Did he previously mess up some game's (IWD/IWD2?) combat system? Or is it just the combat design for PE that you guys dont like?

I'm not an expert on combat systems etc, I only know if I like it or not when I'm actually playing. But in general, isnt it impossible to say something meaningfull this early in development? I mean they will iterate on their design and change so much that we have no idea how its going to play when everything comes together. Also, Tim Cain is equally responsible for the combat design in PE. I think these two guys together should know how to design something good, right?

The Codex only likes new developers that nobody has heard of coming out of nowhere and promising stuff like "Turn-based" or "Party-Based", and giving them the benefit of the doubt. Veteran designers get far more flak because at some point they HAVE proven themselves to be not as BRO as they would have liked. It's like a child who hates the creepy uncle because he ocaisionally gets a little touchy but deep down inside knows he means well for you, but runs off with a stranger with candy to spite him and try to prove that he's more honest, only finding out later how honest this stranger really is...

 

[Grunker]

As much as I dislike Sawyer's design philosophy I'm sure he can make an enjoyable combat system. At least I trust him on that more than I do the other kickstarter devs.

I think people are underestimating the efficiency of the system Sawyer seems to be creating because they are adverse to the way he treats the legacy he builds upon (and, maybe more so, to Roguey's trolling admiration of the man and the fact that she, too, pisses on that very legacy to rile up the residents), as well as his narrow focus on balance.

Anyone who puts as much time and dedication into understanding system design, and who obviously has his heart right in there with him on his quest to deliver a system that plays well, is bound to make something that will be immensely fun to play with. Sawyer attempts to understand what he works with, and he seems dedicated to understand his field and what makes it work. The same cannot be said for many RPG system designers in the world of video games. For most of these, core gameplay systems come first and the character system is an afterthought.

For this reason alone I think Project Eternity will be surperior to many other RPGs in the system-department.

I have a great deal of hope that Project Eternity will be a good game, also because of Sawyer and the way he approaches design. I have no problem reconciling this with my disdain for his Icarus-esque quest for True Balance (tm) and his disapproval of the giants on whose shoulders he is standing.

EDIT: Quotes like this one:

I am not primarily interested in telling stories. I am a game designer and my primary interest is in making games.

which Roguey posted make me hopeful. We need more RPG designers who are first and foremost concerned with the mechanics of their game.

 

[Infinitron]

Just out of curiosity: where does the antipathy to Sawyer as a game/combat designer come from? Did he previously mess up some game's (IWD/IWD2?) combat system? Or is it just the combat design for PE that you guys dont like?

I'm not an expert on combat systems etc, I only know if I like it or not when I'm actually playing. But in general, isnt it impossible to say something meaningfull this early in development? I mean they will iterate on their design and change so much that we have no idea how its going to play when everything comes together. Also, Tim Cain is equally responsible for the combat design in PE. I think these two guys together should know how to design something good, right?

There is some butthurt from way back when concerning Sawyer's designs for the original cancelled Fallout 3, and to be fair, his design philosophy is less appropriate for a Fallout game than it is for an Infinity Engine-like game.

I don't think most of the antipathy is coming from people who were around back then, though.

 

[Arkeus]

He mentioned such things but he didn't call them "escape mechanics". He said it would be possible to retreat from combat. Just like it was possible in Baldur's Gate. That's hardly a "mechanic".

I'd have to re-read all of the updates/etc, which i am way too lazy to do, but i am pretty sure he framed the retreats from combats as special mechanisms aided by certain abilities/items.

I also seem to remember something about creating noise/shadow in order to help sneaking?

Roguey, are you here?

 

[Grunker]

^ Infinitron: Honestly I think most of the current disdain is less from anything he's done before and more for the reasons I posted (Roguey's trolling and his own disdain for everyone who doesn't think like himself).

 

[Roguey]

Why would something like combat states be impossible with Unity? Does he think that one of the most versatile engines in common use today is not capable of a simple variable check to see if the player is in combat or not? Can't you just like, put a check in the main game loop that sees if there are any hostile enemies within X distance of the player, and depending on the result, start or end combat?

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60875-merged-cooldown-thread/page-27#entry1220528

The amount of time that a spell level lockout should last isn't something for which I have a solid answer. It could work in a manner similar to 4E where the end of an "encounter" resets the lockout on the majority of abilities, but "combat" states in engines is something that, in my experience, is often triggered on/off in weird ways. If a lockout lasts for something like 30 seconds or 45 seconds, that lockout will likely last longer than the remainder of the combat, but not so long that the player would have a compelling incentive to "spam stand", which I agree is bad. Whether the answer is a timed lockout or a combat state-released lockout, I'm not sure.

I'd say the designer with over a decade of experience knows more about not making promises he's not sure he can keep than the amateur.

It's something that goes both ways. The mechanics should dictate the world-building as much as the other way around. Like, you don't make a combat system where everyone can survive being stabbed half a dozen times with no consequence besides HP loss that you can heal by sleeping and then sell it as a gritty post-apocalypse game.

Lots of people seem to love Fallout though?

In the end, this game isn't a one man show and even Josh probably isn't as dogmatic as he sometimes appears to be.

Josh and Tim are the only people working on systems and I wouldn't be surprised if Tim's more of an idea guy whose ideas have to be filtered through Sawyer's vision.

 

[Lancehead]

^ Infinitron: Honestly I think most of the current disdain is less from anything he's done before and more for the reasons I posted (Roguey's trolling and his own disdain for everyone who doesn't think like himself).

I think a lot of the things Sawyer says that upset people is mainly due to what he believes his duties are as a designer - i.e. making a game that's enjoyable to most of the target audience as opposed making a game that he wants to make. And P:E's target audience goes well beyond the Codex, and he will cater to them too. For example, the unlimited space backpack inventory.

 

[SCO]

"unlimited space backpack inventory"

 

[Duraframe300]

Just out of curiosity: where does the antipathy to Sawyer as a game/combat designer come from? Did he previously mess up some game's (IWD/IWD2?) combat system? Or is it just the combat design for PE that you guys dont like?

Sawyer has a *special* way with words. While I wasn't around for most of it I have heard tales about all the legendary arguments people had with him even when he was just a web-guy on the Black Isle/Interplay forums.

Meaning most of the controversy is about what he says and how he says it that just rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Not because of his actual work.

 

[Infinitron]

^ Infinitron: Honestly I think most of the current disdain is less from anything he's done before and more for the reasons I posted (Roguey's trolling and his own disdain for everyone who doesn't think like himself).

I think a lot of the things Sawyer says that upset people is mainly due to what he believes his duties are as a designer - i.e. making a game that's enjoyable to most of the target audience as opposed making a game that he wants to make. And P:E's target audience goes well beyond the Codex, and he will cater to them too. For example, the unlimited space backpack inventory.

I don't think any of PE's target audience particularly cares about inventory mechanics. They'll take whatever they're given.

Anyway, what unlimited backpack are you referring to? The "stash" is unlimited but you can't access it outside of towns.

 

[Arkeus]

"unlimited space backpack inventory"

Yeah, there are three inventories in the game:
-top of the pack, which is basically your belt, and can be accessible at any time
-backpack, which is basically the traditional BG inventory and can only be accessed out of combat
-unlimited space, which can only be opened in "safe areas".[/quote]

 

[SCO]

"unlimited space backpack inventory"

 

[Brayko]

Yeah it's a blast having to stop mid-dungeon/quest and sell all the shit in your backpack, and encountering more shit on the way back. With huge dungeons promised for PE all the better.

 

[Lancehead]

Uh, I don't think any of PE's target audience particularly cares about inventory mechanics. They'll take whatever they're given.

Anyway, what unlimited backpack are you referring to? The "stash" is unlimited but you can't access it outside of towns.

Yes, the stash. It's possible most of the P:E backers don't care too much about that, but the point is he made the unlimited aspect of it because he thinks people love to loot everything, which I'm sure most people will do given the option.

Most importantly, it doesn't prevent you from doing what adventurers love to do most: loot everything they find that isn't bolted down.

 

[Diablo169]

They might even have a lore reason behind it, if you can have a bag of holding in Dungeons and Dragons I don't see why they can't explain it as something similar here if needed.

 

[imweasel]

Sawyer made some rather unorthodox proposals for P:E, i.e. the no missing mechanic, cooldowns, etc.

He is also an egotisitical hypocrite who thinks that he is the motherfucking RPG design Messiah. He has never proven himself as a low level designer, yet he states that most other RPG designers have no fucking idea what they are doing.
BTW: He generally criticizes other designers for implementing bad RPG elements in their games, yet he loves Shitrim, which is also not only ironic but quite hilarious.

 

[Delterius]

They might even have a lore reason behind it, if you can have a bag of holding in Dungeons and Dragons I don't see why they can't explain it as something similar here if needed.

Better yet, they could just call the stash a beast of burden that doesn't appear on the screen. It would be just as abstract but at least it would make sense. However, it appears Sawyer specifically doesn't want the 'stash' to be accessible, even though that should be irrelevant. The sort of thing the player is going to send there are useless vendor trash anyway.

One might say that without calling it anything, be it a bag of holding (that might not be a actual thing in P:E's setting) or a beast of burden allows Obsidian to leave the stash as a unlimited resource. But, really, the combination of 'top of the pack' 'backpacks' and a 'beast of burden' that isn't unlimited could add to a effectively unlimited inventory that you won't be able to fill unless you have issues with looting or the game just throws millions of filler encounters and loot at you.

 

[Infinitron]

They might even have a lore reason behind it, if you can have a bag of holding in Dungeons and Dragons I don't see why they can't explain it as something similar here if needed.

Better yet, they could just call the stash a beast of burden that doesn't appear on the screen. It would be just as abstract but at least it would make sense. However, it appears Sawyer specifically doesn't want the 'stash' to be accessible, even though that should be irrelevant. The sort of thing the player is going to send there are useless vendor trash anyway.

Thing is, we don't know how much "useless vendor trash" this game will even have. Baldur's Gate and its ilk constantly bombarded with you miscellaneous gemstones, jewelry, scrolls and potions, but PE might be a different sort of game in that respect.