Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Brayko]

You mean bugs? Yeah, I can imagine that Sawyer might be worried about that considering Obsidian's track record in regards to bugs.

I'll refer to Dungeon Siege 3 whenever the "B" word comes up.

 

[Zeriel]

Am I the only person who still likes the traditional role of a healing/support class in RPGs that are supposed to be... well... traditional? I feel like Don Quixote tilting against windmills with how every RPG developer now wants to generalize every character class/role.

 

[Excidium]

Am I the only person who still likes the traditional role of a healing/support class in RPGs that are supposed to be... well... traditional? I feel like Don Quixote tilting against windmills with how every RPG developer now wants to generalize every character class/role.

You mean clerics kicking ass full of buffs and druids mauling people as bears and causing thunderstorms? That's what support classes used to be instead of sitting behind filling HP bars.

 

[Zeriel]

Clerics in D&D weren't combat-useless pussies, while still being able to heal. In fact, in later editions they were regarded as generally overpowered.

 

[Infinitron]

Am I the only person who still likes the traditional role of a healing/support class in RPGs that are supposed to be... well... traditional? I feel like Don Quixote tilting against windmills with how every RPG developer now wants to generalize every character class/role.

I guess D&D clerics aren't traditional then?

 

[Zeriel]

Am I the only person who still likes the traditional role of a healing/support class in RPGs that are supposed to be... well... traditional? I feel like Don Quixote tilting against windmills with how every RPG developer now wants to generalize every character class/role.

I guess D&D clerics aren't traditional then?

In relation to doing away with spells like Cure Light Wounds, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

 

[Lord Andre]

I have no doubt that Sawyer can make a good combat system. That (to me) is a given. What I'm peeved about is that he probably can't deliver a great combat system. To me, narrative coherence is important above all. I think the setting and story should dictate game mechanics, otherwise, when combat begins, I feel that I am transported to a different game. I don't want combat to feel like a mini-game that I play to move the story forward, I want the combat to be seamlessly integrated with the rest of the game.
This is the point where I absolutely cannot agree with Sawyer, as from his interviews, it seems to me that, he considers gameplay mechanics to take priority over setting established rules. (ex: see inventory, miss mechanic).

J_C: Drop it. I know you're used to receive some kool kredit privileges from everybody, because you do those interviews but it means nothing to me. And to set the record straight: race, sex, sexual orientation, political affiliation, religion or JOINING DATE are not, were not and will not ever be relevant to the content of someone's post. This joining date meme has become stale for a lot of time now and the fact that it seems that you actually believe in it makes you look like a retard. If you don't agree with someone, argue your point, otherwise you're just another shitposter screaming shitposter at the top of his lungs.

 

[Infinitron]

So according to you the way to create a "great" combat system is to allow the guys writing the story and setting to dictate its mechanics? Okay...

There are plenty of RPGs that work the way you describe. Most of them have combat that is easily broken and exploited. I say give Sawyer a chance to make his combatfag RPG. Who knows, maybe you'll even like it.

 

[Excidium]

So according to you the way to create a "great" combat system is to allow the guys writing the story and setting to dictate its mechanics? Okay...

That's now what he means at all...he means that the fluff and the mechanics have to be connected.

 

[Gozma]

There is no chance Sawyer will make anything worse than BG/NWN2 RTw/P.

 

[Infinitron]

That's now what he means at all...he means that the fluff and the mechanics have to be connected.

But it is. He says "create a plausible fantasy world first and let the combat mechanics flow from that". Maybe I'd be more convinced by that if the primary example of a "worldbuilding"-based approach towards game design in our time wasn't The Elder Scrolls series. See that mountain? You can climb it!

 

[Lancehead]

Well, they seem to be using Souls as the pervasive concept to connect combat, story, and setting.

 

[Excidium]

That's now what he means at all...he means that the fluff and the mechanics have to be connected.

But it is. He says "create a plausible fantasy world first and let the combat mechanics flow from that". Maybe I'd be more convinced by that if the primary example of a "worldbuilding"-based approach towards game design in our time wasn't The Elder Scrolls series. See that mountain? You can climb it!

It's something that goes both ways. The mechanics should dictate the world-building as much as the other way around. Like, you don't make a combat system where everyone can survive being stabbed half a dozen times with no consequence besides HP loss that you can heal by sleeping and then sell it as a gritty post-apocalypse game.

 

[Brayko]

There is no chance Sawyer will make anything worse than BG/NWN2 RTw/P.

The issue there is that BG and NWN2 use DnD rules, which is fundamentally a turn-based system, so of course it's flawed.

 

[Lord Andre]

What Excidium said. And if they don't commit the sin of high-magic setting fagotry, then it's not a problem. If something would be really broken cut it from the fluff first. Some things however are rooted hard in the setting because they are basic concepts - like a backpack. If the backpack is damaging gameplay then upgrade it to a bag of holding and integrate it into the fluff. But abstractions like the one way portal back pack with no explanation damage suspension of disbelief, and once that is negated it is only a matter of time 'till I get bored and the game becomes a chore.

 

[Gozma]

I feel like the worst thing Sawyer might do is to find the fun stuff in BG/NWN2 combat and move it to the forefront while making obviously inane bullshit like casting a million buffs go away, even if the combat is still kinda stupid and broken at a fundamental level (like giving you incentives to pause a hundred times a second to manage pathfinding or whatever). That is just about exactly what he did with the combat mechanics in New Vegas wrt Fallout 3, in the base game and in his mod - it's still ultimately broken, but he took some obviously stupid problems out and molded the rules to make some of the fun parts (e.g. gunporn) rise to the top. If you like BG/NWN2 already then you are near-certain to like what is made of it.

 

[Infinitron]

What Excidium said. And if they don't commit the sin of high-magic setting fagotry, then it's not a problem. If something would be really broken cut it from the fluff first. Some things however are rooted hard in the setting because they are basic concepts - like a backpack. If the backpack is damaging gameplay then upgrade it to a bag of holding and integrate it into the fluff. But abstractions like the one way portal back pack with no explanation damage suspension of disbelief, and once that is negated it is only a matter of time 'till I get bored and the game becomes a chore.

I understand your concerns but you shouldn't conflate your personal sense of immersion with the depth and quality of the combat and other mechanics.

Anyway turn based combat isn't very immersive either so at least you have that.

 

[Excidium]

Goddamn Infinitron. You're such a retard sometimes.

 

[Lord Andre]

I understand your concerns but you shouldn't conflate your personal sense of immersion with the depth and quality of the combat and other mechanics.

Anyway turn based combat isn't very immersive either so at least you have that.

I understand I might come off as a story/setting fag from my previous posts but that is not the case. The extreme road is not the solution and I don't argue for it. All I'm saying is that fluff and gameplay should converge to a sweet spot that works. For example, turn-based is not immersion breaking as long as all inhabitants of the world are subjected to it. But if the party is subjected to an abstraction while the npcs are not then it sticks out.

The backpack is a minor thing in itself, however if it's indicative of a mindset and that mindset influences a lot of other minor details then those things add up. I just wish Sawyer would be more forgiving when it comes to fluff vs gameplay. And don't take that fluff for granted because when the afore mentioned sweet spot is reached it leaves room for creative solutions instead of scripted solutions.

I hope this clarifies my position better.

 

[Diablo169]

If the game is at the very least as enjoyable as the Icewind Dale series then it will be better then most of the titles release for years. As far as I'm concerned the only way is up. I just wish it had a larger team working on it.

 

[imweasel]

I feel like Don Quixote tilting against windmills with how every RPG developer now wants to generalize every character class/role.

Mo' 'tardation, mo' money.

while making obviously inane bullshit like casting a million buffs go away

And what is wrong with casting a few buffs, like protection from evil or haste, before a tough battle?

Last I checked this wasn't supposed to be a sequel to Arcanum (= just mindlessly whack the motherfucker until he falls over).

 

[Infinitron]

I understand your concerns but you shouldn't conflate your personal sense of immersion with the depth and quality of the combat and other mechanics.

Anyway turn based combat isn't very immersive either so at least you have that.

I understand I might come off as a story/setting fag from my previous posts but that is not the case. The extreme road is not the solution and I don't argue for it. All I'm saying is that fluff and gameplay should converge to a sweet spot that works. For example, turn-based is not immersion breaking as long as all inhabitants of the world are subjected to it. But if the party is subjected to an abstraction while the npcs are not then it sticks out.

The backpack is a minor thing in itself, however if it's indicative of a mindset and that mindset influences a lot of other minor details then those things add up. I just wish Sawyer would be more forgiving when it comes to fluff vs gameplay. And don't take that fluff for granted because when the afore mentioned sweet spot is reached it leaves room for creative solutions instead of scripted solutions.

I hope this clarifies my position better.

Fair enough. I don't think it will end up as extreme as you might think. In the end, this game isn't a one man show and even Josh probably isn't as dogmatic as he sometimes appears to be.

 

[J_C]

J_C: Drop it. I know you're used to receive some kool kredit privileges from everybody, because you do those interviews but it means nothing to me. And to set the record straight: race, sex, sexual orientation, political affiliation, religion or JOINING DATE are not, were not and will not ever be relevant to the content of someone's post. This joining date meme has become stale for a lot of time now and the fact that it seems that you actually believe in it makes you look like a retard. If you don't agree with someone, argue your point, otherwise you're just another shitposter screaming shitposter at the top of his lungs.

Really? You don't say! I honestly thought that the join date decided about a person's post being good or bad. Thank's for clearing that up for me, you are a genius.

I know you're used to receive some kool kredit privileges from everybody, because you do those interviews but it means nothing to me.

Please, this is also just a meme, everybody knows that I don't do interviews.

 

[Lord Andre]

Fair enough. I don't think it will end up as extreme as you might think. In the end, this game isn't a one man show and even Josh probably isn't as dogmatic as he sometimes appears to be.

I know it will be incline but once a very promising new game is announced I can't help but want it to be the absolute best it can be. Call me a micro-managing fag if you will.

J_C, whatever dude, just call me the white knight of newfags. Don't abuse ma' younglins.

 

[Excidium]

As much as I dislike Sawyer's design philosophy I'm sure he can make an enjoyable combat system. At least I trust him on that more than I do the other kickstarter devs.