Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Cosmo]

What is this? Egalitarian quest distribution movement or something?

As often you're a pain and you're trying too hard.
No, it's a question of dealing with quest structure before dealing with the quests themselves. That way pacing problems don't occur, quests are interwoven and interrelated, and so are the different locations and the game world feels more coherent and alive.

 

[Cursed Beaver]

It's called "pacing", people. Look it up. It's kind of important.

That would be the case in a linear story.
But that's not the case here. You take on different quest, most of the time in the order you want.
If most of the activity/action start in a city, then you'll spend a lot more time in the city. Or at least, most of the adventure (==quest) will start in the city.

The world is more coherent/alive when the city is the biggest, most dense hub. It must feel like an agglomeration.

 

[Brayko]

It's called "pacing", people. Look it up. It's kind of important.

Refers to the linear pacing of NW2: Laughs hysterically.

 

[Cosmo]

It's called "pacing", people. Look it up. It's kind of important.

That would be the case in a linear story.

o_O You'll have to think a little bit more.

It's called "pacing", people. Look it up. It's kind of important.

Refers to the linear pacing of NW2: Laughs hysterically.

OC was mediocre, no point in denying that.

 

[Cosmo]

 

[J_C]

o_O You'll have to think a little bit more.

You know someone is out of arguments when these are the only answers from him. Admit it, there is no problem here. There are lot of quests in the game, but they don't present a problem. They are not forced onto you, they are not linear.

 

[Infinitron]

That would be the case in a linear story.
But that's not the case here. You take on different quest, most of the time in the order you want.
If most of the activity/action start in a city, then you'll spend a lot more time in the city. Or at least, most of the adventure (==quest) will start in the city.

The world is more coherent/alive when the city is the biggest, most dense hub. It must feel like an agglomeration.

I don't agree. Pacing is important in a non-linear story as well. You don't frontload a fuckton of content at once. You let things build up gradually.

 

[Cosmo]

You know someone is out of arguments when these are the only answers from him. Admit it, there is no problem here.

You think there's no pacing in a non-linear RPG ? Really ? You truly think it's not a design concern when building locations, placing quest-givers, deciding density of quest-critical NPCs versus non-critical ones ?
Pacing in a linear game obeys to timing ; it's just more a problem of designing the world (and its space) in a non-linear one. But it exists nonetheless, and it's just as important.

Concerning Schreck i certainly won't let myself be stunlocked into a debate with him. First i know how these end and second i find his whole persona way too painful to bear, even when he's right. Which makes it a personal issue i guess.

 

[Brayko]

Well it gives away something of your flexibility if you can't handle it.

 

[Cursed Beaver]

That would be the case in a linear story.
But that's not the case here. You take on different quest, most of the time in the order you want.
If most of the activity/action start in a city, then you'll spend a lot more time in the city. Or at least, most of the adventure (==quest) will start in the city.

The world is more coherent/alive when the city is the biggest, most dense hub. It must feel like an agglomeration.

I don't agree. Pacing is important in a non-linear story as well. You don't frontload a fuckton of content at once. You let things build up gradually.

Sure. Pace is always important. In a linear RPG, equal density is important for the pace.

But in this case, an unequal distribution of quest density wouldn't have a negative effect on the pacing.

And I'm speaking of spatial density (areas), not time density (course of the game).

 

[Infinitron]

Sure. In a linear RPG, equal density is important for the pace.

But in this case, an unequal distribution of quest density wouldn't have a negative effect on the pacing.

And I'm speaking of spatial density (areas), not time density (course of the game).

Those two things are intertwined. If you stuff an area with side quests, players will naturally spend more time in that area, which will affect your game's sense of pacing.

 

[Duraframe300]

Sawyer says he wants characters to sound "naturalistic", that means if the character is a flamboyant one, then he/she would speak flamboyantly, and if not, no. I don't see how that would be "unrealistic".

And we don't even know if he's writing any characters, so any concerns here would be confusing.

I actually have no idea what he really meant anyway. He said people qualified his writting ''dry'' , which led me to believe that it wasn't actually ''naturalistic'', but more unecessary serious.

They're not.
Did you play New Vegas? Arcade is a good example here, since he is very sarcastic and more on the humerous side. He really means *naturalistic* as in how people act natural. Not *everything has to be serious*.

 

[Cursed Beaver]

Sawyer says he wants characters to sound "naturalistic", that means if the character is a flamboyant one, then he/she would speak flamboyantly, and if not, no. I don't see how that would be "unrealistic".

And we don't even know if he's writing any characters, so any concerns here would be confusing.

I actually have no idea what he really meant anyway. He said people qualified his writting ''dry'' , which led me to believe that it wasn't actually ''naturalistic'', but more unecessary serious.

They're not.
Did you play New Vegas? Arcade is a good example here, since he is very sarcastic and more on the humerous side. He really means *naturalistic* as in how people act natural. Not *everything has to be serious*.

''Acting natural'' if it plays out like in new Vegas will actually be completely inappropriate in Project Eternity.

Acting ''natural'' in a world where you are a Magician that can throw fireballs with his mind isn't the same thing. Same for a powerfull warrior that can wistand the blow of a gigantic hammer, and shatter a stone elemental with his sword.

A lot of characters should indeed be flamboyant and extravagant. Much more than in a desolate post-apoc setting.

Baldur's Gate 2 got it right, I believe. Now the writing could be of a better quality, but the tone was good.

 

[Lancehead]

I for one am glad they aren't just trying to make BG II-2, but trying to get a balance of IE games. Considering the strengths of Obsidian, going for Athkatla quest density (tm) would be to the detriment of the game.

 

[Lancehead]

wut what?

 

[J_C]

wut what wut

 

[Lancehead]

I don't get your question's relevance here. I'm talking about how cramming a shitton of quests into one area can degrade the quality of said quests content.

 

[Roguey]

Even Bioware thought Athkatla had too much content.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131493/baldurs_gate_ii_the_anatomy_of_a_.php?page=2

In retrospect, it would have been very helpful to have this finished set of guidelines at the start of the project, rather than at the end. A number of decisions that were made very early in the development of Baldur's Gate II did not follow the guidelines and could not be undone. Most noteworthy was Chapter 2 of the game - it included a story segment that was similar to those in other chapters, but in Chapter 2 the player could also access all of the class-specific subquests. This led to Chapter 2 potentially dwarfing all other chapters in length because the players could spend 60 hours doing subquests. We needed to put the subquests at a point where all players could access them equally, but end result was that it bloated an early section of the game. In the end there was nothing we could do to fix the chapter disparity so we simply worked around it.
...
In a project as content rich as Baldur's Gate II, we didn't really have to worry about cutting content. While we shipped with nearly all the features we originally planned, we did start cutting quests and characters well before the final testing phase. We still ended up with over 200 hundred hours of gameplay.

In retrospect we should have started this process many months earlier. One of the dangers of development is that game developers have a tendency to always add content if they are given time. They don't naturally spend time limiting and polishing content; instead, more time means more stuff. It's wise to use that prioritized feature list to hone the work (of course ours was informal, which made it a little difficult).

We learned to look at our target date and adjust our content development accordingly. In many ways, quality is more important than quantity. Even though Baldur's Gate II was bigger than Baldur's Gate, the actual content was much better quality - we just didn't realize how much more we had made in BG2 until it was too late!
...
Summary: What could have been better:

• Fragmentation of team communication
• Content bloat (Game too big)
• Lack of early Quality Assurance
• Late asset delivery - audio and sound
• Poor coordination of localization (translation)
• Multi-player - non pausing dialog, non-protagonist characters

 

[Lancehead]

Captain Shrek: Reading Comprehension - Critical failure.

First you said this:

I for one am glad they aren't just trying to make BG II-2, but trying to get a balance of IE games.

Meaning, YOU do not like BG1/2 but like IWD1/2 (why?). While it is generally agreed that BGs are far superior to IWDs. Yeah, can't prove that. Take a poll or something.

No, it does not mean that, it means exactly what I said, that I'm glad they aren't just making BG II-2. It can be interpreted, however, with better comprehension, that I may consider a better balance of IE games (what P:E seems to aim for) better than BG II.

Then this:

Considering the strengths of Obsidian, going for Athkatla quest density (tm) would be to the detriment of the game.

Meaning you had no real problem with "quest density" of BG2 but thought Obsidian could not manage it. (Why?)

Indeed, I didn't have any issue with Athkatla's quest density in BG II. But it follows, from above, that I prefer a different density for P:E since I prefer them not make BG II-2.

And, no, it's not about whether Obsidian can manage said density, but about what it may mean for the quality of those quests. In terms of overarching nature of them, in terms of good C&C, in terms of worldbuilding, in terms of NPCs and places etc. In other words, what Obsidian have been historically good at (also called "strengths").

And then finally:

I'm talking about how cramming a shitton of quests into one area can degrade the quality of said quests content.

Meaning:

Uh oh. I realize I am making stupid statements out there, let me shift goalposts.

Now go read this post again and earlier posts I made a couple of pages back, then maybe you see that you mean what was not meant, that there is no shifting of goal posts, and that my argument in a nutshell is (and has been) that too much content in one place would result in decrease in the quality of that content and would be utilising Obsidian's strengths not-ideally.

One final note, just in case: My arguments are in regards to quest content.

 

[Lilura]

Its worth noting that many players would want to track down Irenicus and/or rescue Imoen ASAP, and so they can simply raise the money (20,000gp, reduced to 15,000, very easy to do), advance to chapter 3 and take out the rival thieves guild (not hard), then go straight to Spellhold.
The "chapter 2" quests Bioware are talking about in Roguey's quote are quests you can optionally do in Chapter 2, 3 or even chapter 6 (post-Underdark).

I'll also repeat that I don't object at all to Athkatla's quest density, just to the forced interjection of many larger quests by the givers of them.

 

[Rake]

Sawyer's points are valid. He didn't say that P:E will have less content than BG2, he just said that it will be more spread out among 2 big cities and the wilderness.
Also don't forget thet P:E will only give XP for quest completion and not for kills. That alone should ensure that the game will have the same if not more quests than BG2.
After all in order to go and explore ruins and the countyside, you will need to have an objective. Empty maps won't cut it. That removes the problem of BG1 empty wilderness maps that was the worst part of the game.
Also, like Roguey's post says, Chapter 2 was half the game. If part of the side quests were only available after you left the Underdark, nothing would be lost and the pacing would be much better. And the game would not feel like it is on rails from Spellhold and after.( and that IS a common criticism)

 

[felipepepe]

I agree that one would spend days on chapter 2, then the others would look short on comparisson... but so what? And what's the alternative to that? Lock half of the quests to only appear after returning from Underdark? Players had already entered every goddamn house and alley in the game, making the go through everything again because MAYBE now there's a NPC with a new quest would feel very tiring and a pointless gating.

In the end, the whole thing is: BG2 had a non-orthodox pacing. It still had one of the most interesting cities in gaming, but apparently that's not what matters, just BALANCE...

 

[Brzęczyszczykiewicz]

I liked Athkatla quest density.

Summary: What could have been better:

• Content bloat (Game too big)

lol. Yeah it should have been 5 hours long like modern shooters.

• Poor coordination of localization (translation)

Polish voice acting in BG2 was better than original.

 

[Cyberarmy]

I had no problems about number of quest(both side and main) in Athkatla but they can overwhelm player really quick.

 

[Lancehead]

I agree that one would spend days on chapter 2, then the others would look short on comparisson... but so what? And what's the alternative to that? Lock half of the quests to only appear after returning from Underdark? Players had already entered every goddamn house and alley in the game, making the go through everything again because MAYBE now there's a NPC with a new quest would feel very tiring and a pointless gating.

Where are you getting this from Sawyer's post? He said he wants to spread out content, probably so that all areas are reasonably filled with content.