Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[J_C]

BG2's style of dialogue were good FFS, if PE will have a dry, boring style, I'll cut my wrists. Meh, we can still count on Ziets and MCA. At least we will know which characters were written by Sawyer, and which are by others.

God forbid people talk like people in an RPG

You say that people in BG2 didn't?

 

[Excidium]

Yes? Most of them look like something out of a school play script.

 

[AN4RCHID]

Those were no problems in my book. BG2's style of dialogue were good FFS, if PE will have a dry, boring style, I'll cut my wrists. Meh, we can still count on Ziets and MCA. At least we will know which characters were written by Sawyer, and which are by others.

Arcade, Chief Hanlon, and Joshua Graham are boring characters? If PE has the same level of quality in dialogue as New Vegas I'll be fucking ecstatic.

 

[Cursed Beaver]

Yes? Most of them look like something out of a school play script.

So what? They were flamboyant, and it was always pleasant to read the dialogues.

There's no need for eveything to be stern buisness talk. In fact, that would be unrealistic.

 

[Lancehead]

Sawyer says he wants characters to sound "naturalistic", that means if the character is a flamboyant one, then he/she would speak flamboyantly, and if not, no. I don't see how that would be "unrealistic".

And we don't even know if he's writing any characters, so any concerns here would be confusing.

 

[Cursed Beaver]

Sawyer says he wants characters to sound "naturalistic", that means if the character is a flamboyant one, then he/she would speak flamboyantly, and if not, no. I don't see how that would be "unrealistic".

And we don't even know if he's writing any characters, so any concerns here would be confusing.

I actually have no idea what he really meant anyway. He said people qualified his writting ''dry'' , which led me to believe that it wasn't actually ''naturalistic'', but more unecessary serious.

Also, I always exepected most people in a fantasy setting to be extravagant. It makes sense considering the kind of power they can harness, and the kind of life they lead.
At least the mage/casters.

 

[Rivmusique]

Aedyrans have the opposite problem when they visit the Dyrwood. Their home climate is very hot and humid, so they are relatively underdressed for the Mediterranean/temperate climates of the Dyrwood.

Topless/bikini girls confirmed. Will the models have boob physics? Will they dance if you make it rain? Hopefully you can 'romance' some. Looking forward to the game way more now.

 

[Lilura]

Just two things Sawyer wrote in that post above:

Being required to find/save Imoen - I didn't like it then and I still don't. I wouldn't make the player rescue an NPC with whom he or she may or may not have a positive relationship. It's a very specific plot point and easy not to do. I understand that a lot of people have no problem with the rescue plot, which is totally fine, but I don't think that particular plot point need to be repeated in PE.

I sort of agree with this and Bioware confused themselves with this plotpoint, and bungled it all up. But straight after Imoen is taken and in the first few chapters they don't present Imoen's rescue as a requirement at all, they instead leave it up to the player what the primary motivation is of tracking down Irenicus.

This is pretty clear from the dialogues selections where you can choose your motivation to raid Spellhold as either avenging yourself on Irenicus or as saving Imoen.
There are even dialogues to off-handedly dismiss Imoen's plight, like for example when talking to the first Shadow Thief contact (Bayle).

The problem is that when you at first confront Irenicus in Spellhold Bioware suddenly FORCE you to care deeply for Imoen and so they rudely override the player's motivations up to that point. Then when she is freed they let you be cold and heartless of a childhood friend again by either ignoring her before you run Bodhi's gauntlet or by telling her to escape by herself.

So Bioware just got lazy or whatever and once again its just an illusion of choice like most of their "role-playing" dialogue in all their games.

Being flooded with quests in Athkatla - To be honest, I don't think this is a controversial opinion! I've seen many other players say the same thing. BG2 has a crazy amount of quests, which is great, but the density in Athkatla was a little too crazy. I think those quests should have been spread out of staggered in some other way. PE is going to have more of an exploration focus than BG2 (though not as much as BG), so I believe that will help spread out the content more.

I sort of diagree with this, I really enjoyed the density of the quests in Athkatla. The only problem is the way these quests were presented to the player: they were a forced interjection.
It was only when you had a few quests going through your mind and then got within proximity of a quest giver who would then verbally assault you, that things got facepalmy or a bit hectic.
Otherwise, I think they mostly succeeded to convey the hustle and bustle of a city teeming with activity and intrigue.
Athkatla felt alive, more alive with criss-crossing quests than 3d cities with popamole "Radiant" AI anyway.
So I guess if PE has cities with quest density akin to BG2 I wouldn't be put off at all, providing they weren't all forced on me.

 

[Cursed Beaver]

Otherwise, I think they mostly succeeded to convey the hustle and bustle of a city teeming with activity and intrigue.
Athkatla felt alive, more alive with criss-crossing quests than 3d cities with popamole "Radiant" AI anyway.
So I guess if PE has cities with quest density akin to BG2 I wouldn't be put off at all, providing they weren't all forced on me.

Completely agree.
I believe Athkatla was pretty much the crowning moment of the BG series, and by far what made the game so popular (along with the gorgeous artstyle and encounter system).
And actually the density of quest in this city was presented by many as the strong point of the game. Sawyer is deluding himself when he thinks this aspect was critisized.

 

[Cosmo]

Sawyer is deluding himself when he thinks this aspect was critisized.

No one's deluded, there are too many quests in this town, especially when we compare it to the rest of the world. Sometimes it feels right, and sometimes it feels like choking on one too many turkish delight...
You have to understand that design-wise, there's always room for improvement : the points he raised, which are quite valid, can testify to that.

 

[Cursed Beaver]

Sawyer is deluding himself when he thinks this aspect was critisized.

No one's deluded, precisely because he alone, and as a designer (i.e. not only a player, which would be blinded by his first-hand experience), is criticizing it.
You have to understand that design-wise, there's always room for improvement : the points he raised, which are quite valid, can testify to that.

Being flooded with quests in Athkatla - To be honest, I don't think is a controversial opinion! I've seen many other players say the same thing.

He is deluding himself. Athkatla's design, and especially it's quest density was and is still praised. He thinks this was actually a widely accepted critisism.

Design wise there's always room for improvement, but what sawyer is proposing in this particular case is more akin to degrading than improving.

 

[Lancehead]

Considering Obsidian writers put more thought and care into quests than most, having the quest density of Athkatla may well be a negative depending on your perspective, i.e. more fleshed out quests with good C&C vs. plenty of combat.

 

[Cosmo]

bler

I changed my message : i had not seen the formspring quote...

By the way you may as well use explanations and arguments instead of judging on mere intent.

He thinks this was actually a widely accepted critisism.

Well it is. At least widely enough that it's far from being an anomaly. So take a deep breath and suck it.

 

[Lancehead]

Also, people need to keep in mind P:E has two big cities. If one wants quest density close to Athkatla, you can easily expect plenty of filler and repetitive quests.

 

[Cosmo]

Except here there will be an overarching quest structure that will help to paint a coherent, seamless world (think New Vegas).
In that light, individual quests will hopefully feel more like exploring a new side of the world's situation, rather than just missions piling on top of each other without any true link.

 

[Cursed Beaver]

Also, people need to keep in mind P:E has two big cities. If one wants quest density close to Athkatla, you can easily expect plenty of filler and repetitive quests.

Indeed.

In the end, the quest density must be coherent : in a thriving city, there should be a ton of activity, intrigues... and therefore a much bigger quest density.

More spread out quest would only take away some of the uniqueness of the locations. A city must feel like a city, and be much more filled in quest than the countryside.

But it seems the disagreement is wether or not the amount of quest in Athkatla was overkill.

 

[Cosmo]

No disagreement to be had : it was to a certain number of people.
Not you ? Well that's all well and good but you just can't discount other people's opinions. Especially when you're using nothing else than opinions yourself.

 

[Arkeus]

That reminds me of the argument of 'how can romance be bad? don't do them if you don't want to'.

Anyway, the problem in Akathla (though it was also a 'fun' problem) is that every single house had a quest, if not more than one. it was packed FULL, really.

 

[J_C]

This entire debate is unsound. How can more content be overkill? It's just there! Don't do it, if you don't want it.

And it wasn't even annoying in BG2. The quest givers usually didn't just pull you into a conversation (stripping the player of control). They were just there. If the player wanted to talk to them, and doing their quest, the possibility was there. But it wasn't forced.

That reminds me of the argument of 'how can romance be bad? don't do them if you don't want to'.

Anyway, the problem in Akathla (though it was also a 'fun' problem) is that every single house had a quest, if not more than one. it was packed FULL, really.

Romance is not bad in itself, even the Codex agrees with this. Badly written into your face romance is bad.

 

[Cursed Beaver]

No disagreement to be had : it was to a certain number of people. Not you ? Well that's well and good but you can't discount other people's opinions. Especially when you're using nothing else than opinions yourself.

Yes. It's up to discussion. But are there stuff can be considered objectively good in an RPG ?

If so, then what was objectively good in Baldur's Gate 2 shouldn't be changed. And the debate would be wether or not quest density in Athkatla was optimal.

 

[Cosmo]

This entire debate is unsound. How can more content be overkill? It's just there! Don't do it, if you don't want it.

The game had its way of forcing you into it (encounters in the street that lock you in dialog for example).
But the point is relative rather than absolute : Atkhatla was too full compared to the rest of the world.

 

[Brayko]

I'm actually with J_C on this one. None of the stuff he mentions were problems in BG2, I enjoyed the writing in that game, even if the voice acting was poor. The only one I kinda agree with was the saving Imoen quest. The "quest density" in Athkatla was great although it could have been less random, but it works great for whimsical questers like myself.

 

[Zeriel]

Yeah, Sawyer's notion of "quest density" as a problem in BG2 (as opposed to the strong merit I see it as) kind of destroyed a lot of my hope for Project Eternity. There's nothing so dispiriting as a game designer who wants to fix what isn't broken.

 

[Cosmo]

It wasn't broken, it was simply lacking in certain design areas.

 

[Infinitron]

It's called "pacing", people. Look it up. It's kind of important.