Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Blaine]

It's intellectually dishonest to simply state the truth that BG1/2 were far more succesfull than PS:T was?

It is when you're Roguey and every word you type is disingenuous and meant to serve some agenda.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fractal_wrongness

Debating with a person who is fractally wrong leads to infinite regress, as every refutation you make of that person's opinions will lead to a rejoinder, full of half-truths, leaps of poor logic, and outright lies, that requires just as much refutation to debunk as the first one. It is as impossible to convince a fractally wrong person of anything as it is to walk around the edge of the Mandelbrot set in finite time.

Does that remind you of anyone? A certain someone who frequents this thread, perhaps? Hmmm? A person of the Josh Sawyer admirer persuasion, quite possibly? Hmmm?

Just curious.

 

[Roguey]

Barely. 419 more kickstarter backers.

And yet that's a massive change from "outsold by a ridiculous margin", isn't it?

419 backers is a small margin, but there are also an additional $190,000 (Kickstarter only) to consider. That's 5% more monies raised—still a small margin, but the point is that P:E was edged out.

What we're discussing re: sales figures is why both of the BG games outsold Planescape: Torment. Comparatively speaking, the reasons I gave are completely valid. BG was generic fantasy, it was Forgotten Realms, it featured familiar races, familiar monsters, familiar mechanics, and was marketed to kingdom come. It was mainstream, for a lack of a better term, whereas Fallout and Planescape are niche. And personally, I do believe it sold poorly given how beloved it ultimately became.

The tables have turned now, however. Its reputation solidified, T:ToN can and quite possibly will overshadow your generic perfect cRPG to end all cRPGs.

I'm not going to pretend to know why the BGs outsold Torment, since people are strange and their motivations vary. However, a super-infinity engine game that combines the best features of BG+PST+IWD sounds like it has greater potential than just a regular old Torment successor to me. The more people it can potentially appeal to the better.

 

[Blaine]

The more people it can potentially appeal to the better.

— Roguey, absolutely not an agent of the decline

 

[Surf Solar]

It's intellectually dishonest to simply state the truth that BG1/2 were far more succesfull than PS:T was?

It is when you're Roguey and every word you type is disingenuous and meant to serve some agenda.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fractal_wrongness

Debating with a person who is fractally wrong leads to infinite regress, as every refutation you make of that person's opinions will lead to a rejoinder, full of half-truths, leaps of poor logic, and outright lies, that requires just as much refutation to debunk as the first one. It is as impossible to convince a fractally wrong person of anything as it is to walk around the edge of the Mandelbrot set in finite time.

Does that remind you of anyone? A certain someone who frequents this thread, perhaps? Hmmm? A person of the Josh Sawyer admirer persuasion, quite possibly? Hmmm?

Just curious.

Unlike you, I'm not on a personal crusade against Roguey, so I don't find his/her comment that loaded as you do.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Roguey, lacking any ability to form opinions or independent thoughts, equates a game that sells well to a good game. Just like its god, Sawyer.

 

[Jaesun]

BG and BGII sold well because of three words: Dungeons and Dragons.

 

[tuluse]

BG and BGII sold well because of three words: Dungeons and Dragons.

Which Icewind Dale and Planescape: Torment also had.

 

[suejak]

BG and BGII sold well because of three words: Dungeons and Dragons.

Which Icewind Dale and Planescape: Torment also had.

Dungeons and Dragons: Forgotten Realms

Icewind Dale sold fine, btw.

 

[Aeschylus]

BG and BGII sold well because of three words: Dungeons and Dragons.

Which Icewind Dale and Planescape: Torment also had.

Dungeons and Dragons: Forgotten Realms

Icewind Dale sold fine, btw.

IWD is also Forgotten Realms.

 

[tuluse]

Dungeons and Dragons: Forgotten Realms

Icewind Dale sold fine, btw.

So did PS:T, look at the quote right above "it was profitable". The question isn't whether a game meets a minimum requirement to "sell fine", but why BG was so much more popular.

 

[Rake]

Romances...

 

[Broseph]

Dungeons and Dragons: Forgotten Realms

Icewind Dale sold fine, btw.

So did PS:T, look at the quote right above "it was profitable". The question isn't whether a game meets a minimum requirement to "sell fine", but why BG was so much more popular.

Generic fantasy sells.

 

[suejak]

I really don't get what's so hard to understand. BG and IWD did markedly better than Torment for very obvious reasons.

IWD and IWD2 were considered "slam dunk" titles even while in development. That's how reliable Infinity-style D&D generic fantasy was at the time.

 

[Jaesun]

I really don't get what's so hard to understand. BG and IWD did markedly better than Torment for very obvious reasons.

What obvious reasons?

 

[Mangoose]

Dungeons and Dragons: Forgotten Realms

Icewind Dale sold fine, btw.

So did PS:T, look at the quote right above "it was profitable". The question isn't whether a game meets a minimum requirement to "sell fine", but why BG was so much more popular.

Generic fantasy sells.

Not to mention the protagonist of PS:T was even less generic, in that you were forced to play an ugly scarred male motherfucker, instead of being able to create your own generic plane-walking Legolas.

 

[Lancehead]

I do think the balance of variety in content played a part in BG games popularity compared to IWD which was all combat, and PST which was all story.

 

[Mangoose]

I do think the balance of variety in content played a part in BG games popularity compared to IWD which was all combat, and PST which was all story.

So, you're saying that the BG games had broader appeal than IWD and PST, because it had a broader variety of content which attracted a broader audience? And that BG and IWD were more "generic fantasy," which has a larger audience than PST's type of setting, and thus a larger audience = broader appeal? And perhaps broader appeal = more sales?

Gosh it almost seems obvious when you think about it

 

[Blaine]

Roguey, lacking any ability to form opinions or independent thoughts, equates a game that sells well to a good game. Just like its god, Sawyer.

Great. I've been forced into the position of defending Roguey.

Technically, Roguey's not arguing that selling more copies = a better game. Zhe's simply arguing that P:E will likely sell more copies than T:ToN, based on the fact that each of the BG games sold far more copies than PS:T. Although the reasons behind BG selling more copies don't necessarily reflect badly on PS:T (or positively on BG), many of those factors (wider appeal and brand recognition of BG, et cetera) will still be in play when T:ToN and BG go on sale. Thus, even if T:ToN is on par with or even superior to P:E, it can be reasonably argued that P:E will nevertheless sell more copies.

Personally, I believe that Roguey's viewpoint is shortsighted and therefore still wrong. The target audiences in 2013 for both T:ToN and P:E overlap a great deal, are smaller, and are quite different than they were in 1998-2000—even though many of the same fans from the 1990s (most Codexians) are part of said audiences. Those old-school players are almost fifteen years older now, they're aware of both P:E and T:ToN, they're starved of good cRPGs to begin with, and I believe that this more seasoned audience will have grown somewhat tired of generic fantasy rehashes, finding "exotic" settings and cRPGs that do things differently more interesting than they did in 1999.

That's my rationale for T:ToN having a shot at not only out-funding, but also outselling and arguably even outclassing P:E, despite T:ToN being much more of a "niche" endeavor, comparatively speaking. Only time will tell.

 

[Broseph]

Even popamole RPG players who love the fuck out of Mass Effect and Oblivion sing the praises of Baldur's Gate, it's hardly uncommon. Planescape is mentioned a lot too but it's a little more niche so I'm kind of with Roguey on this one.

 

[Lancehead]

I do think the balance of variety in content played a part in BG games popularity compared to IWD which was all combat, and PST which was all story.

So, you're saying that the BG games had broader appeal than IWD and PST, because it had a broader variety of content which attracted a broader audience? And that BG and IWD were more "generic fantasy," which has a larger audience than PST's type of setting, and thus a larger audience = broader appeal? And perhaps broader appeal = more sales?

Gosh it almost seems obvious when you think about it

Broad/generic statements = less chance of being incorrect.

 

[Blaine]

Even popamole RPG players who love the fuck out of Mass Effect and Oblivion sing the praises of Baldur's Gate, it's hardly uncommon. Planescape is mentioned a lot too but it's a little more niche so I'm kind of with Roguey on this one.

The primary (emphasis on "primary") reason for this is that popamole players hate having to read anything and demand that dialogue be voice acted to them in a series of dramatic cutscenes. I know this because they freely admit to it.

 

[Broseph]

Planescape was good for its time but it's unplayable now, don't you know bro? This is the 21st century, get with the times. If I wanted to read a book I would, but I'm trying to play this game here and all the lack of voice acting is just really hurting my brian.

 

[Sensuki]

Sawyer replied to a couple of my formspring questions from a few weeks ago.

 

[dunno lah]

How about dual wielding also increasing the AoO(by 1 maybe)?

 

[Volrath]

I'm calling it: P:E will have better gameplay and be more fun than Torment 2.0.

D:OS will trump both though