Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Roguey]

I really don't get what's so hard to understand. BG and IWD did markedly better than Torment for very obvious reasons.

I'm under the impression IWD and Torment sold comparatively well based on http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/228823887289262081 ("the few hundred thousand that bought Icewind Dale"). Their budgets were likely smaller, so more profit for Interplay.

Those old-school players are almost fifteen years older now, they're aware of both P:E and T:ToN, they're starved of good cRPGs to begin with, and I believe that this more seasoned audience will have grown somewhat tired of generic fantasy rehashes, finding "exotic" settings and cRPGs that do things differently more interesting than they did in 1999.

They weren't tired of it in 1989 or 1999, and they were comparably starved in the late 90s, so I doubt they're tired of it now. Besides, Eternity's going to have non-traditional stuff in it as well, broadening its appeal.

 

[Blaine]

They weren't tired of it in 1989 or 1999, and they were comparably starved in the late 90s, so I doubt they're tired of it now.

That was sixteen years ago, and no, they absolutely weren't "comparably starved" in the late 90s, unless you're counting popamole shitgames. Throughout most of the 2000s, the number of even halfway-decent cRPGs released each year has been approximately zero, or perhaps one (on occasion) if you're willing to lower your standards somewhat. That was less true in the very early 2000s, but has certainly been the case for the last decade.

As for arguing over whether or not people are getting tired of generic fantasy... it's pure speculation, on both our parts. Might as well say, "It's red", "No, it's blue!". I'm almost inclined to agree with you, since people in general are quite happy to continue immersing themselves in the same old familiar rehashed elements decade after decade, just as people love to read Garfield and Peanuts in newspaper comics decades after those franchises ceased to be remotely clever, funny, or relevant. Remember though, I'm referring to a significantly smaller, older audience here, one that doesn't include the fresh injection of fifteen-year-old locker-stuffers that the general gaming/fantasy audience always includes.

Among a group of thirty-year olds, more of them will have grown tired of generic fantasy compared to when they were fifteen years old and it all seemed new to them. This is still speculation, but it's a lot stronger than yours.

 

[Roguey]

They weren't tired of it in 1989 or 1999, and they were comparably starved in the late 90s, so I doubt they're tired of it now.

That was sixteen years ago, and no, they absolutely weren't "comparably starved" in the late 90s, unless you're counting popamole shitgames.

Western RPGs were considered a dead genre from 1995-1996, then Diablo and Black Isle-published RPGs happened but not much else.

Remember though, I'm referring to a significantly smaller, older audience here, one that doesn't include the fresh injection of fifteen-year-old locker-stuffers that the general gaming/fantasy audience always includes.

Who says there aren't a bunch of 15 year olds interested in Eternity? Seemed that way to me based on the final day's livestream.

 

[Blaine]

Who says there aren't a bunch of 15 year olds interested in Eternity? Seemed that way to me based on the final day's livestream.

Sadly, functional illiteracy and stupidity aren't limited to fifteen-year-olds.

You're not wrong, but the proportion of older fans to young 'uns among the target audience for these games will, in my estimation, be much greater than it ever was in the past. I'll make a chart to illustrate this hypothesis later on today if I decide I can be bothered.

Also:

Western RPGs were considered a dead genre from 1995-1996

Citation needed. In any case, you're proving my point: A two-year dry spell doesn't compare to a decade-long desert.

Daggerfall was released in 1996, by the way.

 

[Rake]

There are about 2 million poor Biodrones out there searching for a home after Bioware departed of the DA:O formula. These people consider DA:O the best RPG ever.
All things being equal between P:E and T:ToN in quality and writting, i imagine that P:E will be more their cup of tea. It's a mistake to think that because Codex is part of the audience, the audience is and mature. Witcher is what passes for mature these days, and they have a PS:T cult in their forums. The same with BG2 in BSN. Only part of the Black Isle audience moved on the Codex. The majority continiued to play mainstream games.

Also people always say thet they are tired of "generic fantasy", but in practise most actually prefer it. Be it books, games or whatever, generic always sells better than unique.
Compair Wheel of Time with Long Price Quartet or Book of the New Sun. The first is a trope list in the form of books, the later two are very unique (and better written). Yet the first outsold them both combined. Skyrim is as generic as it goes, but not many people found that annoying. Sure, if someone wanted to criticise the game he would find way worse problems than "generic fantasy", but still...

 

[Blaine]

Also people always say thet they are tired of "generic fantasy", but in practise most actually prefer it.

Count me among the select few, then.

I like to sum up Wheel of Time (which I read approximately half of a few years back in order to judge for myself) with the following phrase: blushing furiously.

 

[Rake]

Also people always say thet they are tired of "generic fantasy", but in practise most actually prefer it.

Count me among the select few, then.

I like to sum up Wheel of Time (which I read approximately half of a few years back in order to judge for myself) with the following phrase: blushing furiously.

And yet this thing sold 50 million copies. The strange thing is that logically, everyone shoud prefer more unique settings. Copy pasting is not something you should be proud for, and what's the reason to read Fantasy of all things if it's as mundane and generic as fuck? And if you ask them, most people will say that yes, of course they prefer somothing creative and diffirent. But in practise they don't.

 

[Blaine]

Momentum is a factor, though. The 40-50% (just throwing out a number) of people who will always love generic fantasy can spread a work's reputation by word of mouth and by voting with their wallets, which will cause others who do tend to prefer more creative works to purchase that work of generic fantasy because there's a lot of positive buzz about it. It's a snowball effect, exacerbating the apparent appeal of said works.

That's my take on it, anyway.

 

[DraQ]

Skyrim is as generic as it goes

Except not quite. Sure, compared to Morrowind, PS:T or some older games (say Albion) it's *very* generic and plain, but it still doesn't even approach the level of BG1 or Oblivion.

Even generic vikingland would be pretty fucking exotic compared to usual Sword Coast copypasta or even permuted sword coast copypasta, and Skyrim isn't entirely generic vikingland - those tend to not have mamooths.

Mind you, I'm not claiming that Skyrim is particularly creative, because it just fucking isn't.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Generic high fantasy done really well, i.e Baldurs Gate 2 is an example of such for me, is still preferable to low fantasy done badly (the witcher, considering it's source material)

 

[Deleted member 7219]

What did The Witcher not do well?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Great. I've been forced into the position of defending Roguey.

snip

Nah, wasn't talking about that. It actually believes that for a game to be good it must be accessible to as much people as possible, because that's what Sawyer considers "good design".

 

[Rake]

Momentum is a factor, though. The 40-50% (just throwing out a number) of people who will always love generic fantasy can spread a work's reputation by word of mouth and by voting with their wallets, which will cause others who do tend to prefer more creative works to purchase that work of generic fantasy because there's a lot of positive buzz about it. It's a snowball effect, exacerbating the apparent appeal of said works.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Then the problem is that people who prefer creative work can still like generic if it's done well, whereas some people will be put off by something more unusual and won't even try it.
That's why generic seems more safe for creators.

 

[Kem0sabe]

What did The Witcher not do well?

With the books they had to work with, their character depth, story and world design was a bit underwhelming to say the least, tho i still had a lot of fun with it.

 

[Zed]

Generic does not equal Bad.
It's just familiar.
It's what stories you tell with the setting that's important.

Forgotten realms is generic, but the BGII is still the best CRPG adventure.

And P:E is gonna be either the second best or the best.

 

[cvv]

Generic high fantasy done really well, i.e Baldurs Gate 2 is an example of such for me, is still preferable to low fantasy done badly (the witcher, considering it's source material)

Considering the source material, CDP did a fantastic job with the Witcher. I think part of its success was that NOBODY had ever dreamed a small Polish studio could make a half decent cRPG game, especially after how the Poles themselves raped the IP with the TV show.

The strange thing is that logically, everyone shoud prefer more unique settings.

No, people generally prefer a setting that doesn't tax their imagination too much. Fodder fantasy like the Wheel of Time is basically a simple fairytale we loved as kids, suitably expanded for adulthood. GRR Martin is rich for the same reason, reading about Westeros doesn't require any imagination at all. Of course, it's a low effort-low yield activity.

Now grandmasters like Wolfe or Donaldson are not rich because redding their stuff is teh hard. It's a mental equivalent of running 10 miles. While doing hammer curls. That's why I think PE, given the same market condition, PR etc., will outsell TToN by a mile.

 

[Blaine]

For a truly dense and thoroughly non-generic (but great) read, I recommend Neal Stephenson's Anathem. It's technically science fiction, but hey, these days sci-fi & fantasy are often lumped into the same category.

 

[Roguey]

Nah, wasn't talking about that. It actually believes that for a game to be good it must be accessible to as much people as possible, because that's what Sawyer considers "good design".

Linking to http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/228823887289262081 again

I don't expect to pull in CoD numbers because CoD's design is extraordinarily simple and there's nothing in CoD's design that would suggest they are attempting to challenge players. I think it should be obvious by the features that we put into F:NV that we were not attempting to further simplify the game or the genre.

You have really bizarre ideas about what Sawyer thinks about things.

 

[Grunker]

Nah, wasn't talking about that. It actually believes that for a game to be good it must be accessible to as much people as possible, because that's what Sawyer considers "good design".

Linking to http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/228823887289262081 again

I don't expect to pull in CoD numbers because CoD's design is extraordinarily simple and there's nothing in CoD's design that would suggest they are attempting to challenge players. I think it should be obvious by the features that we put into F:NV that we were not attempting to further simplify the game or the genre.

You have really bizarre ideas about what Sawyer thinks about things.

You meet people with general disdain and sometimes simplistic idiocy, that's what you get back.

Not that I don't agree with you the last couple of pages.

 

[Blaine]

There is an all-pervasive atmosphere of belligerence and contrarianism on the Codex. Heck, that's part of the reason I like it.

That said, I'd be happier if more than a small handful of forum regulars were able and willing to:

• attempt to view issues from more than just their own narrow viewpoint
• admit when they're wrong (instead of scrambling to save face/moving the goalposts/muddying the waters/backpedaling/etc.)
• admit when their opponent's argumentation is superior, even conjecturally

Dissoi logoi, folks. We need more of it around here.

 

[Lady_Error]

Generic does not equal Bad.
It's just familiar.
It's what stories you tell with the setting that's important.

That's a good point.

Forgotten realms is generic, but the BGII is still the best CRPG adventure.

*cough* *cough*

 

[FeelTheRads]

You have really bizarre ideas about what Sawyer thinks about things.

How about linking that one about how every little shit must understand the game. Oh wait, it's in the one you linked too, you just didn't quote that thinking I wouldn't click, huh?

Even when I was making Icewind Dale and IWD2, I could see a lot of new players struggling to understand the rules -- both 2nd Ed. and 3E.

So struggling is bad, game should be made accessible for everybody.

 

[Excidium]

Even when I was making Icewind Dale and IWD2, I could see a lot of new players struggling to understand the rules -- both 2nd Ed. and 3E.

So struggling is bad, game should be made accessible for everybody.

They should put naked chicks on the manual or something.

 

[Zed]

Generic does not equal Bad.
It's just familiar.
It's what stories you tell with the setting that's important.

That's a good point.

Forgotten realms is generic, but the BGII is still the best CRPG adventure.

*cough* *cough*

but it is! *cough better than PST cough* *cough lightyears ahead of IWD cough*
*cough cough cough*

 

[villain of the story]

Hello guys, still waiting for this Real Crap with Piss?