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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

Grunker

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Infinitron, coffeetable, Duraframe300, Rake, Lancehead: Hmm, fuck it. Upon further consideration, I was wrong, you were right. I concede to most of your points.

All I will maintain is that this:

Since I loved IE and therefore pledged to PE, hearing that the game designer thinks IE gameplay was godawful naturally makes me sceptical.

is still a reasonable position. That Sawyer shows the amount of disdain he does for many of the gameplay elements of IE is worrysome, and I hope PE ends up playing like an IE-game despite this.



:hmmm:

The two promises are of vastly different magnitudes.
 

Liston

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I'm saying: I loved the IE-games. So I pledged to PE. When the game designer talks about PE, I expect to hear how PE is like IE. All I hear is how it is different, because "IE was godawful." This makes me think PE will play quite, if not, completely, differently. Since I loved IE and therefore pledged to PE, hearing that the game designer thinks IE gameplay was godawful naturally makes me sceptical.

What makes you think that? I'm sure that you followed kickstarter campaign during witch they said that they plan to change quite a few things like magic system, resting, disparity in class progression (they even gave general goals and descriptions for core class) and obviously new rule system. IMO they didn't stray too far from anything that they said during kickstarter nor did they introduced anything new, all we have heard after kickstarter are few specific mechanics that are in line with goals they said during kickstarter. Only significant change is magic system (because they said during kickstarter that they may use cooldowns) which makes it more IE-like. Even Josh's "hate" toward many things in IE games was well known. So why are you worried now? Nothing new happened as far as I know.
 

Rake

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All I will maintain is that this is:

Since I loved IE and therefore pledged to PE, hearing that the game designer thinks IE gameplay was godawful naturally makes me sceptical.

is still a reasonable position. That Sawyer shows the amount of disdain he does for many of the gameplay elements of IE is worrysome, and I hope PE ends up playing like an IE-game despite this.
I agree. But it depends on what YOU consider IE gameplay. Sawyer has said that he aims for PE to play similar with the IE games. From other things he has said i take that he meant the second by second gameplay will be similar. The rules, the party compositions and class advancement and balance will be very different. The combat may feel the same but the way the player approaches and plans for his "gameplay" will be different, if i make sense.
I have come to terms with that.
 

Borelli

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http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer
q8OAQfP.png


PfpGI8A.png
Culture that applauds vigilantism = me likey. Makes sense in a pseudo medieval world with weak central authority.
"Dwarven colonies don't have a particularly good rate of survival" - Dwarf Fortress shout out anyone?
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Arkeus http://www.formspring.me/GZiets/q/476505267123552195


GZiets 1h
That depends upon which Infinity Engine games you use as a comparison. I don’t think PE will have less text than the Baldur’s Gate series, but it will have less text than Planescape: Torment.

Personally, I’ve always thought that the Baldur’s Gate series (especially BG2) had the best balance of text, combat, and exploration among the IE games, resulting in the strongest experience overall. That’s the target that PE is trying to hit, as far as I can tell.
 

Grunker

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GZiets 1h
That depends upon which Infinity Engine games you use as a comparison. I don’t think PE will have less text than the Baldur’s Gate series, but it will have less text than Planescape: Torment.

Personally, I’ve always thought that the Baldur’s Gate series (especially BG2) had the best balance of text, combat, and exploration among the IE games, resulting in the strongest experience overall. That’s the target that PE is trying to hit, as far as I can tell.

:)

Zeits is there for Grunks.
 
Unwanted

Cursed Platypus

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Culture that applauds vigilantism = me likey. Makes sense in a pseudo medieval world with weak central authority.
"Dwarven colonies don't have a particularly good rate of survival" - Dwarf Fortress shout out anyone?

So applauding Vigilantism is considered a morally ambiguous flaw? Or am I reading it wrong (in the sense, vigilantism isn't necessarily wrong, but it tends to put them into trouble, hence a potential flaw)?
 

AN4RCHID

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Sexual pairings by different races (in the PE sense, e.g. elves and humans, orlans and elves) never result in conception
inb4 marriage equality allegory.
 
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If I was looking around the middle east right now there's a fair number of states that make '[x] tend to applaud vigilanticism and rebellion, often to their detriment' make sense. The question wasn't about morality, it was about utopianism. If a country isn't very good at governing itself (i.e. lots of vigilanticism and rebellions) then it isn't going to be utopian.
 

AN4RCHID

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Update's up...

Update by Tim Cain, Senior Programmer and Designer


pe-thecraft-timcain.jpg

I have been working on a lot of different gameplay mechanics since my last update about monks (Update #52). All of the classes are in the game now, along with their abilities and spells up to level 5. This should give us a good basis to test encounters in the game's early maps. So I have turned my attention to some of the non-combat skills, including crafting.

Crafting Basics
Crafting is the skill that you use to make equippable items like armor and weapons, and consumable items like potions and food. To begin crafting, you must find an appropriate crafting location.

  • Forges – these blacksmithing locations can be used to make all of the equippable gear. From helmets to armor to boots, if you can wear it, then you can make it here.
  • Labs – these alchemical tables are used to make any enchantments, as well as all alchemical consumables like potions, scrolls or figurines (which let you summon a creature that will fight for you). If you want to improve your gear or brew a potion, you need to find one of these labs.
  • Hearths – these cooking spots are used to make food and drink that can give you long-term benefits when you ingest them. Many rest areas will have hearths, so crafting of this sort can often be done “in the field”.
When you use the central object at these locations, such as the anvil at the forge, you will enter a crafting interface that displays all of your forge recipes, broken down into categories such as armor, weapons, boots, helmets, rings, etc. You pick a category and can see all of the recipes you know for that category. Each recipe has a set of ingredients needed to make its item (or items, as some recipes will make batches of items). Some recipes will have additional prerequisites, including requiring you or a companion to have a certain talent or ability or even skill at an appropriate level. Higher level recipes have more prerequisites and need rarer ingredients.

You may be wondering where you get recipes. You get a few automatically when you level up your crafting skill, and you can also buy them from vendors. Sometimes you will find recipes in the world, as loot on creatures or as rewards for finishing quests. There will be a lot of recipes in Project Eternity for you to find, so make sure you explore every nook and cranny of this world, especially the crannies.

Crafting doesn’t take any time. If you have everything the recipe needs and are at the appropriate crafting location, then you can make the item instantly. Usually the ingredients are used up, but sometimes they are reusable. And for recipes like enchantments, the main ingredient is not used up but is instead improved by the addition of a new bonus. For example, you might have a sword with high accuracy and a Flaming Sword recipe that adds fire damage to any sword. If you use that sword with that recipe, you will have the same sword with a high accuracy bonus but also with additional fire damage! Win win!

Crafting can also be used to repair items, but first we should talk about item durability in Project Eternity.

Item Durability
Most items don’t degrade over time. This means that boots, rings, helmets, gloves, amulets, cloaks, and belts are not worn down by use. However, weapons, shields, and armor (that is, chest armor) do have durability values and are worn down by use. Specifically, every attack with a weapon degrades that weapon by one unit, and armor and shields are similarly degraded when the wearer is attacked.

Items have lots of units of durability, and they do not suffer any negative effects until those units are completely gone. When an item has reached 25% of its maximum durability, it will become “worn” and appear that way in your inventory, but it will not behave any differently until the last unit of durability is lost. At that point, the item is “damaged” and the following effects will happen:

  • Weapons – damaged weapons do less damage and have less accuracy
  • Armor – damaged armor has lower damage thresholds and the wearer’s attack speed is slower
  • Shields – damaged shields lose part of their defense bonuses
Items can never become worse than “damaged”. They will not break or become more damaged. They just stay damaged until you have them fixed.

Vendors can repair items for money, so that’s a fast and easy way to keep all of your items in top notch condition. The cost of the repair is proportional to the percentage of the durability lost and the cost of the item, so expensive items tend to be more costly to repair than cheaper ones, especially if you let them lose a lot of their durability before repairing them.

However, let’s see how you can save your precious hard-earned money by bringing this discussion back to crafting.


pe-crafting-campfire-tn.jpg
A typical Hearth where you can craft food and drink.

Durability and Crafting
You or any companion can repair items by using the crafting skill at a forge. More importantly, you can use materials instead of money, if you have the right ones. The higher your crafting skill or the more materials you have, the less money it costs to repair an item. Some items might even repair for free!

But wait...there’s more!

The crafting skill also decreases the rate of degradation on items used by a character. So if you have the crafting skill, when you hit someone, your weapon doesn’t lose a whole point of durability. Instead it loses a fraction of a point. And when you are hit, your armor and shield don’t lose a whole point each either. And the higher your crafting skill, the less durability you lose. We are assuming that if you know how to make an item, you also know how to use and take care of it.

So a high crafting skill means your weapons, armor, and shields degrade more slowly and you can repair those items (and those of your companions) more cheaply than a vendor. That is such a win-win situation, how can you afford to NOT take the crafting skill?!

I’ll answer that question in a future update about the other skills in Project Eternity.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Durability sounds annoying. Crafting sounds Ok, but the recipes have to be cool.

Arcanum is the only game I ever put any effort into crafting and it was because the schematics had such fun descriptions. Well that and magic is gay, so I always played a technologist.
 

AstroZombie

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Divinity: Original Sin
It'd be better if weapon degradation was mainly caused by using your weapon like a dumbass, for example, using a sword against a fully armored enemy would chip away at the durability.
 

Blaine

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
I fervently hope that the skill won't be called "Crafting." It probably won't be, but the language used leaves it open to interpretation....
 

uaciaut

Augur
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Feb 18, 2013
Messages
505
From the mouth of Josh Sawyer himself: I don't believe what the IE-games did produces good gameplay. Kickstarter promise: Deliver IE-likes.

Sawyer: IE-likes would not produce good gameplay.

It doesn't. Make. Sense.

Spot the difference.
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Unless you already haven't seen this Grunker Infinitron

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/476555580379526832

Most of what I dislike in the IE games has to do with specific elements of content or rules, not the games overall. This probably won't be surprising to anyone, but I even think my three favorite RPGs of all time (Fallout, Darklands, Pool of Radiance) have a ton of problems and I would want to significantly revise aspects of their mechanics or interface if I were handling a game made in their respective spirits.

What I like about the IE games (not content-specific):

* Allow for a lot of large, beautiful areas that promote and reward exploration. There's plenty of 3D art that I like, but I love using 2D art when we can because we can make some amazing environments. Laying those areas out and thinking about how the player will move through the environment to uncover rooms, encounters, etc. is a lot of fun as a designer. As a player, it's always fun. The feeling is not the same in first-person or close first-person game, and it's also not quite the same in 3D. We didn't always use this well (e.g. some areas in IWD and HoW were very linear) and I think those areas suffered because of it.

* Responsiveness. I've always felt that the IE was very responsive to player input and AI state changes. Selection, movement, and execution of commands were all very "crisp" in the IE games, probably owing to its roots as Battleground Infinity (an RTS). Other than pathfinding, controlling characters felt good in the IE (IMO, anyway) -- better than it does in a lot of other RPGs.

* Tactical combat. I disliked some of the specific rules or rule implementations, but I always enjoyed the tactical combat in the BG and IWD games. I loved designing it and I loved playing it. In particular, "symmetrical" battles with parties or other class/level characters were a lot of fun. I like the more scripted feeling of those fights even if I didn't like the rock/paper/scissors nature of some of the hard counters. I enjoy turn-based combat a lot, but I had already been introduced to RTwP 6 years before BG, so I also enjoyed/had no problem with BG's fundamental style of RPG combat.

* General party control. You can access and arrange (almost) everything about your characters, shift them around relative to each other, use formations (though I like ToEE's better), advance and equip everyone individually, etc. Even when I didn't always like all of the companions' personalities, I liked that they *had* personalities and would interact with you/each other. And in the IWD games, we liked that we could make all of our own characters.

* The huge variety of characters/parties you could make. Overall, just lots of options that created great variability in strategic and tactical options -- and different role-playing opportunities.

For content-specific things:

* I loved the scope and variety of areas in all of the IE games, but especially BG1 and BG2. As a former BIS guy, I'm always going to prefer the *style* of areas we developed for IWD (and, just before my time, for PST), but the BG games had a ton of huge areas to explore and an enormous amount of content. I still think BG2's early-game content could have been paced better. Even though BG had a lot of dead space, I still loved exploring the Sword Coast.

* The tactical combat in BG2, IWD, and IWD2. My main complaint with BG2 combat is the hard-counter wizard fights. I don't think hard-counters belong in a game where you can easily, unintentionally, build a party that lacks the hard-counter. I also don't think save or die effects belong in a game with save/reload, but that's a larger issue with 2nd and some elements of 3rd Edition A/D&D. Notably, it's mostly absent from 4E and I think that aspect of the game is better for it.

* How PST handled dialogue from the perspective of making it more than literally just saying words to another character. PST's dialogue allowed you to do much more in conversations and helped the player feel like they were *doing* things. Of course, PST's level of player agency in the story and with companions is fantastic.

* The overall volume and varied responses/plotlines of companions in BG2 and PST.

* The music of all of the games. They were all great.

* The style of interfaces. They' were weighty and solid and the sound effects that accompanied them made them feel even weightier. Do I prefer the "across the bottom" UIs of IWD2 and PST to the wrap-arounds of BG and BG2? Yep. There you go.

I think that covers most of it. I worked on four of the IE titles (IWD, HoW, TotL, IWD2). I hope people understand that I didn't come out of that experience thinking that either the engine or games were anything close to flawless. I watched dozens and eventually hundreds of designers and players interact with these games for years. When I'm critical of them, it's because I think they can be even better, not because I don't think they were good in the first place.

To me, one of the most important bits about that is the reponsiveness bit. Hopefully the combat in P:E is smooth and instantaneous without input/processing lag (like other games). The dialogue in IWD was a bit laggy though.
 

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