Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[tuluse]

They're still in pre-production. You can make levels until you know what levels need to be made.

 

[Sensuki]

Sure, but that wasn't my point. My hope is that they fill the main Environment artist role before they go into production so that they have 3 people to map the areas to begin with instead of 2

 

[Starym]

PE's content will most likely be centered around that one huge dungeon

I like my speculation much more than yours.

Well, in this interview Avellone says that, as it is, the dungeon "serves a key role" in the story. What that means in practice is another thing entirely, but it doesn't sound like it's going to be like Watcher's Keep, even though that might've been their initial idea. Rather than starting from scratch with the dungeon, they'll probably use some of the stuff that they originally planned for some other part of the game in order to fill all of those fifteen levels. To be honest, I wouldn't mind if there was a slight ToEE vibe to the game, focusing a big part of the content on a single location (or three, if you count the cities) rather than making tons of different areas and possibly spreading the resources too thin.

I get the feeling (based on nothing in particular) that this focus might work out as having to go to let's say level 5 or so for the main story and then leaving the rest optional or open to different side quests or just pure dungeon delving. Just makes a lot of sense and I highly doubt that clearing the entire thing will be main quest mandatory.

 

[TheRabbitsGeorge]

A dungeon can serve a key role in a story without requiring the player to complete the whole thing. Perhaps a story related thing occurs on the first few levels, and once complete the PC is free to keep going down but it is optional. I would like it if each level got exponentially harder, so you could break up the dungeon over the whole game if you want by continually returning to it. Or you can try and low-level it with some ingenuity/tactics and if you overcome the challenge you get dat loot.

This was how Watchers Keep (SCS2) was for me, I kept trying to push a new level with my lower leveled characters, and it was fun. If i hit a roadblock due to weak characters i would just carry on with other sidequests/main quest and return to it later. It was cool to always have WK in the back of my mind in case the MQ got tedious or I ran out of good sidequests.

 

[uaciaut]

PE's content will most likely be centered around that one huge dungeon

I like my speculation much more than yours.

I like it too but it seems a bit too optimistic. My best guess would be that it will be slightly under BG2's size with another extra large city. It's hard to quantify what a large city can be in the dev's opinion anyway, Alkathala was your "world of operation" more or less for like 2 chapters and BG2 was clearly designed a lot around it, i kind of doubt they want to make each of the large cities they promised THAT big.

 

[Duraframe300]

In other news SA is publicly accessible again

 

[MicoSelva]

Not sure if but at least now Infinitron will be able to post links instead of screenshot-spamming the thread.

 

[Infinitron]

Not sure if but at least now Infinitron will be able to post links instead of screenshot-spamming the thread.

I'll still screenshot-spam because they might make it private again, and besides it's nicer looking than copy-pasting.

 

[MicoSelva]

Ok, but now you'll do it by choice, not by necessity.* That's a whole world of difference.

Spoiler

*meaning we can criticize you for it.

 

[Roguey]

We're not going to do things to intentionally antagonize or ignore the backers (or our audience in general), but we're also not asking them to design the game as though a) they all had a combined voice that showed a clear consensus and b) that if they did, that consensus would actually make a good game. We do pay attention to feedback and try to adjust when we think it makes sense (e.g. the GUI feedback, despite being all over the place, was very useful). We're designing the mechanics of the game to feel pretty IE-ish, but there are some things we're changing that not everyone will like. Some people don't like the existence of the Stash because they don't like the idea that you can carry everything you find (even if you can't access it). Some people don't like the idea that wizards and fighters are intended to start at similar levels of power and advance at similar levels of power because that's not how the classes work in 2nd Ed. or 3E/3.5. Some people want rogues to be weak in combat and dominate skills while other classes are great in combat and have crappy skills. We're not going to accommodate any of those wishes because we (honestly, usually I) believe they don't produce good gameplay.

We're going to be adding, removing, and adjusting things all the way through beta and beyond. Some of that will be based on user feedback and a lot of it will be based on internal observations. But when it comes to the basics, we don't really need people to help us figure out how to achieve the feeling of games we helped develop in the first place. If bits and pieces are off, I'm sure people will let us know and we'll be able to adjust, but we're not going to get the broad strokes wrong.

I like the "honestly, usually I."

It wasn't until after I backed this project that I realized I never really finished any of these kind of party RPGs, except for Dragon Age: Origins. So I've been playing Icewind Dale 2 in preparation.

It's really good! Even more excited for PE now.

Like that thing I was talking about in another thread.

 

[Grunker]

From the mouth of Josh Sawyer himself: I don't believe what the IE-games did produces good gameplay. That's why it has always been my dream, according to the kickstarter, to make a spiritual successor to those phenomenal games!

I'm making no sense you say? Well too bad!

You were saying, about me being wrong on that account, Infinitron?

Kickstarter promise: Deliver IE-likes.

Sawyer: IE-likes would not produce good gameplay.

It doesn't. Make. Sense.

 

[Infinitron]

I already posted that post of his earlier in this thread. Not paying attention, Codex?

From the mouth of Josh Sawyer himself: I don't believe what the IE-games did produces good gameplay. That's why it has always been my dream, according to the kickstarter, to make a spiritual successor to those phenomenal games!

1) That's not what he said.

2) Who says making an IE-like game is his dream? It isn't.

 

[Grunker]

I already posted that post of his earlier in this thread. Not paying attention, Codex?

oh shit, people aren't reading every post in a 750 post megathread? why i never

1) That's not what he said.

1) "People want X because they knew it from the IE-games. I don't believe X produces good gameplay."

2) I don't give a fuck about his dream. I give a fuck about the Kickstarter and the promises it made.

I'd like to underline the fact that I still have a good amount of faith in Sawyer and his design, but the bottom line is that out of all the big Kickstarters, the one playing it the most loose with its promises so far is this one. You can't herald the greatness of some games and say you want to build something exactly like that only to flat-out state they were degenerate and promoted horrible gameplay.

 

[Infinitron]

1) "People want X because they knew it from the IE-games. I don't believe X produces good gameplay."

Obviously, Josh Sawyer doesn't agree that "X" is a critical part of the Infinity Engine experience or that most people really want it.

You're free to disagree of course, but it's not logically inconsistent.

 

[Duraframe300]

I'd like to underline the fact that I still have a good amount of faith in Sawyer and his design, but the bottom line is that out of all the big Kickstarters, the one playing it the most loose with its promises so far is this one. You can't herald the greatness of some games and say you want to build something exactly like that only to flat-out state they were degenerate and promoted horrible gameplay.

Yeah, except they never actually said that except in Grunker world. Any statement Sawyer especially made was much broader than *exactly*. Like in the Kickstarter video where Sawyer says he thinks people like the top-down tactical combat. THAT ISN'T REMOTLY EXACT.

Now let's look at statements on the Kickstarter page

Project Eternity aims to recapture the magic, imagination, depth, and nostalgia of classic RPG's that we enjoyed making - and playing.

Broad

Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.

Broad

We are excited at this chance to create something new, yet reminiscent of those great games and we want you to be a part of it as well.

Oh, would you look at that!

They NEVER promised recreating the exact same mechanics or making the exact same game.

Bottomline Grunker's gonna grunk.

 

[coffeetable]

the one playing it the most loose with its promises so far is this one. You can't herald the greatness of some games and say you want to build something exactly like that

Okay you crotchety old illiterate, let's go back to the Kickstarter and see exactly what Obsidian said:

Project Eternity (working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past

Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.

Let me add that as an Infinity Engine inspired game, our pillars of design include isometric exploration of a fantasy world, a reactive storyline with interesting and believable characters, and real-time with pause combat. Those elements are expected in our game, and we feel strongly about providing them.

We don’t have the details on the Expansion yet, but you can bet it will be what you’d expect from an Infinity Engine game expansion.

We believe this represents the common core and several popular secondary classes that many players enjoyed using in the Infinity Engine games.

the same way the music of those awesome Infinity Engine games did in the past.

Early on in the Kickstarter campaign, we told you that we wanted to make maps the Infinity Engine way.

SO FUCK GRUNKER YEAH

 

[coffeetable]

Goddammit Duraframe.

 

[Duraframe300]

Goddammit Duraframe.

 

[Rake]

I'd like to underline the fact that I still have a good amount of faith in Sawyer and his design, but the bottom line is that out of all the big Kickstarters, the one playing it the most loose with its promises so far is this one. You can't herald the greatness of some games and say you want to build something exactly like that only to flat-out state they were degenerate and promoted horrible gameplay.

Yes but PE was the more broad pitch as well. It's the only one that is not a spiritual successor of a game, unlike W2 and T:ToN. It is more of a spiritual successor to an era.
I mean, "IE games" successor. What's that? PS:T-BGT-IWDs? Those games weren't similar in their design, nor their goals. As it's obvious from all the "I want the game to be more like PS:T/BG/BG2/IWDs/DA:O" discusions in the Obsidian forums.You can say as well that it's the spirituall successor to Torn.

The pitch was always "we made these great games, let us make another one in a similar vein". Let Obsidian to make a game like the ones they made when they were BIS.
What Sawyer said is that for better or worse he considers D&D in general and 2E especially deeply flawed and that it doesn't produces good gameplay. They were clear that thay won't use D&D for PE from the start.
You backed an IE game with a system made by Sawyer. If D&D is integral to IE experience for you you shouldn't have backed it. If they liked it they could have used pathfinder and be done with it. They didn't.

Not that i agree with everything Sawyer says, but so far they are doing excactly as they promished.

 

[Arkeus]

Hell, it's been REALLY clear that they are still trying to get that "IE Feel". We haven't seen what it means when it comes to gameplay (because, well, we haven't played the game), but it's obvious that they have succeeded when it comes to graphic style as well as map styles.

 

[Sensuki]

I do admit I disagree on some of the things Josh says doesn't produce good gameplay, such as save or die effects, uneven class progression etc

But ultimately I'd rather play it first before saying, that was a good or bad idea/inclusion.

 

[tuluse]

uneven class progression etc

This really depends on what kind of game you are making. Some games like Final Fantasy 5 the primary mechanic is uneven class progression.

 

[Arkeus]

Honestly, it could really depends on lore. If Wizards are SUPPOSED to be the most powerful thing around, it makes sense for their class progression to be halved or so.

 

[Grunker]

hoho derp derp

Well congratu-fucking-lations bros. Welcome to 500 pages ago. From the definition you have, fucking Dragon Age was a more than sufficient IE-successor. We've discussed the Kickstarter pitch many times, and where you seem to fail is that when you make a video with glorified backgrounds, screenshots and positive associations to the IE-games, followed by saying "our goal is to pay homage to those games", people kind of expect you to do exactly that. Kickstarter rode on a wave of recreating/bringing back a lot of game types of old. Project Eternity is and always was the "IE-like" of Kickstarter. Essentially:

The pitch was always "we made these great games, let us make another one in a similar vein".

And if you ask Avellone, Cain or anyone else, this is easy to restate now. They'll all tell you how great those games were, what they loved, what they enjoyed. Which parts of the characterization that pleased them, how the exploration made them tick. In the latest talk by Avellone, he has a bunch of praise for many different elements of these games.

With Sawyer, that ain't so.

The problem is that Sawyer doesn't seem to like much of anything about the gameplay in IE-games based on how he talks about them. We've had this discussion many times - perhaps you missed it - but my problem isn't that Sawyer wants to change elements of the IE-games (there's plenty I'd change myself), the problem is that there doesn't seem to be much of anything about their gameplay that Sawyer really liked.

I don't think "there's six party members and it's 2D isometric" makes something much like IE. PE may look like IE, but does it play anything like IE? Well, we have no fucking clue, 'cause if Sawyer opens his mouth to talk about IE-gameplay, it's to talk about how godawful it was.

If that's your definition of "pay homage", then your definition needs to be realigned.

What Sawyer said is that for better or worse he considers D&D in general and 2E especially deeply flawed and that it doesn't produces good gameplay. They were clear that thay won't use D&D for PE from the start.
You backed an IE game with a system made by Sawyer. If D&D is integral to IE experience for you you shouldn't have backed it.

If you've got the impression that my posts on the last two pages have had anything to do with D&D then you're reading something into them that I didn't write.

We had the conversation on the topic of D&D 600 pages ago. My opinions on that is clear: they doesn't like D&D/Pathfinder, fine, but they are retards for spending resources and time on developing their own system. End of story, and I haven't revisited that topic, neither am I going to, in the last 600 pages.

uneven class progression etc

This really depends on what kind of game you are making. Some games like Final Fantasy 5 the primary mechanic is uneven class progression.

I suspect half the reason the IE-games were bearable to play was that you didn't control 6 wizards/clerics and therefore didn't have to micromanage movement, position and actions for 6 characters in realtime. You fighter types were on autopilot. At most you had to direct them to attack someone.

crotchety

 

[Infinitron]

The problem is that Sawyer doesn't seem to like much of anything about the gameplay in IE-games based on how he talks about them. We've had this discussion many times - perhaps you missed it - but my problem isn't that Sawyer wants to change elements of the IE-games (there's plenty I'd change myself), the problem is that there doesn't seem to be much of anything about their gameplay that Sawyer really liked.

OK, let's ask him.