Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[gromit]

Okay you crotchety old illiterate, let's go back to the Kickstarter and see exactly what Obsidian said:

Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate

Those elements are expected in our game, and we feel strongly about providing them.

you can bet it will be what you’d expect

We believe this represents the common core and several popular secondary classes that many players enjoyed using in the Infinity Engine games.

so wheres kivan garrick and ajantis you lying sons of whores

 

[Grunker]

The problem is that Sawyer doesn't seem to like much of anything about the gameplay in IE-games based on how he talks about them. We've had this discussion many times - perhaps you missed it - but my problem isn't that Sawyer wants to change elements of the IE-games (there's plenty I'd change myself), the problem is that there doesn't seem to be much of anything about their gameplay that Sawyer really liked.

OK, let's ask him.

You already did once, many pages ago. I presume you never got an answer.

 

[Infinitron]

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer

Dorateen Dwarven ruins!

 

[Infinitron]

The problem is that Sawyer doesn't seem to like much of anything about the gameplay in IE-games based on how he talks about them. We've had this discussion many times - perhaps you missed it - but my problem isn't that Sawyer wants to change elements of the IE-games (there's plenty I'd change myself), the problem is that there doesn't seem to be much of anything about their gameplay that Sawyer really liked.

OK, let's ask him.

You already did once, many pages ago. I presume you never got an answer.

I don't think so. But here's something I did post many pages ago.

Common features of Project Eternity and the Infinity Engine games that set them apart from Dragon Age and other console popamole RPGs:

Six fully controllable party members, arranged in formations.
Isometric.
2D backgrounds.
PC exclusive.
Text heavy, without full voice acting.
Spell memorization/preparation mechanic (not mana and cooldowns like popamole games)
Obvious equivalents of all D&D races.
Obvious equivalents of all D&D classes (not just Warrior, Rogue, Mage like Dragon Age and other popamole RPGs but also Clerics, Paladins, Bards, etc)
Rich assortment of monsters (not just the same monsters repeated again and again with palette shifts like popamole games)

At this point, I'm actually unsure about the "text heavy" part. Avellone doesn't seem into that these days.

 

[Duraframe300]

Well congratu-fucking-lations bros. Welcome to 500 pages ago. From the definition you have, fucking Dragon Age was a more than sufficient IE-successor. We've discussed the Kickstarter pitch many times, and where you seem to fail is that when you make a video with glorified backgrounds, screenshots and positive associations to the IE-games, followed by saying "our goal is to pay homage to those games", people kind of expect you to do exactly that.

Grunkerworld Reloaded

Yes, they pay *homage*. No, *homage* doesn't mean exactly recreating something. *Homage* in itself is fucking broad. In extreme cases you can just make a refrence and it's already a *homage*.

There's a thread going on on the Obsidian forum about this at the moment where most people say Obsidian does what they promised. And I'm sure if they made a big poll, most people would say as much. So, I'm really not sure for what group of people you are actually talking here.

 

[Rivmusique]

You have said that barbarians have a different formula for converting Stamina damage into Health damage. Will they take more or less health damage?

They take significantly less Health damage. We'll be tweaking the exact ratio as time goes on, but it's a lot less than other classes.

Huh. I would have thought it would be more health damage and less stamina damage than other classes. That would fit with the screaming berserker image I have for fantasy barbarians.

 

[Grunker]

Six fully controllable party members, arranged in formations.
Isometric.
2D backgrounds.
PC exclusive.
Text heavy, without full voice acting.
Spell memorization/preparation mechanic (not mana and cooldowns like popamole games)
Obvious equivalents of all D&D races.
Obvious equivalents of all D&D classes (not just Warrior, Rogue, Mage like Dragon Age and other popamole RPGs but also Clerics, Paladins, Bards, etc)
Rich assortment of monsters (not just the same monsters repeated again and again with palette shifts like popamole games)

And just as back then, I will now point out that this is an arbitrary list and I may just as well post that D&D is an integral part of the IE-games. Your list is as arbitrary as any list would be.

 

[Infinitron]

And just as back then, I will now point out that this is an arbitrary list and I may just as well post that D&D is an integral part of the IE-games. Your list is as arbitrary as any list would be.

This isn't a list of integral features. It's a list of features that make Project Eternity more similar to the Infinity Engine games than Dragon Age or any similar game is.

Seriously Grunker, you're behaving childishly. "OMG JOSH DOESN'T SAY NICE WORDS ABOUT THE INFINITY ENGINE GAMES HE MUST HATE THEM!!!111 What a meany. "

Nevertheless, I've asked him to reassure you. Let's see if he responds.

You have said that barbarians have a different formula for converting Stamina damage into Health damage. Will they take more or less health damage?

They take significantly less Health damage. We'll be tweaking the exact ratio as time goes on, but it's a lot less than other classes.

Huh. I would have thought it would be more health damage and less stamina damage than other classes. That would fit with the screaming berserker image I have for fantasy barbarians.

True. I'll ask him about that.

 

[Grunker]

Seriously Grunker, you're behaving childishly. "OMG JOSH DOESN'T SAY NICE WORDS ABOUT THE INFINITY ENGINE GAMES HE MUST HATE THEM!!!111 What a meany. "

I'm saying: I loved the IE-games. So I pledged to PE. When the game designer talks about PE, I expect to hear how PE is like IE. All I hear is how it is different, because "IE was godawful." This makes me think PE will play quite, if not, completely, differently. Since I loved IE and therefore pledged to PE, hearing that the game designer thinks IE gameplay was godawful naturally makes me sceptical.

But I suppose even this reasonable assessment is too much critical thinking for the simple repost-of-info-and-brofist this megathread has evolved into

It seems we have two wings on the Codex considering Project Eternity. One is dedicated to a retarded dismissal of the game as a DA-clone with cooldowns and health regen, and the other is so optimistic even being mildly sceptical about something triggers a rain of posters who will deny even the basic validity of asking these questions.

 

[Lancehead]

I don't think "there's six party members and it's 2D isometric" makes something much like IE. PE may look like IE, but does it play anything like IE? Well, we have no fucking clue, 'cause if Sawyer opens his mouth to talk about IE-gameplay, it's to talk about how godawful it was.

What is "IE-gameplay"?

 

[~RAGING BONER~]

I'm glad races can't conceive with one another. I hate mongrel races, they dilute purity and lead to all forms of degeneracy and immorality.

Besides, it makes no goddamned sense unless you have magical sperm and ovum.

Although I don't mind it too much how they do it in Dragon age were the Alpha race (Qunari > Human > Elf) is the dominant one in terms of offspring so that the child is always of the stronger race. No one breeds with dwarves since they are shit blooded earth dwellers on the verge of extinction (a fantasy trope that seems to follow them no matter the fiction)

 

[Grunker]

I don't think "there's six party members and it's 2D isometric" makes something much like IE. PE may look like IE, but does it play anything like IE? Well, we have no fucking clue, 'cause if Sawyer opens his mouth to talk about IE-gameplay, it's to talk about how godawful it was.

What is "IE-gameplay"?

Are you suggesting that when Sawyer says uneven progression, resting, health, or anything else that we're discussing here, he isn't talking about how the games played? Otherwise what's your point?

 

[Lancehead]

I'd like to know what you consider IE gameplay; the fundamental aspects of it which must be emulated in order to consider PE an IE successor.

 

[tuluse]

Grunker, one problem is that saying how PE is the same as IE would make for boring updates.

Hey guys we have maps, and characters, they move around and fight things. Next week we'll tell you how we have dialog trees. So the interesting updates are about how PE is different from IE.

 

[Grunker]

Grunker, one problem is that saying how PE is the same as IE would make for boring updates.

Hey guys we have maps, and characters, they move around and fight things. Next week we'll tell you how we have dialog trees. So the interesting updates are about how PE is different from IE.

Those are all superficial properties of almost all RPGs.

Anyway, all Sawyer's update are matter-of-factual. "This does this, this mechanic functions like this." I'm not expecting him to tell me "this is how we're like IE", I'm expecting him to explain a mechanic where I go "Hey - that's like the IE!"

I'd like to know what you consider IE gameplay; the fundamental aspects of it which must be emulated in order to consider PE an IE successor.

I'd like to know when I have declared that I can distill the essence of "IE-gameplay?" My use of that term has solely been when Sawyer himself made reference to gamplay elements from the IE-games. I.e. when he said that some aspect of the gameplay in the IE-games were degenerate or whatever.

 

[Infinitron]

Anyway, all Sawyer's update are matter-of-factual. "This does this, this mechanic functions like this." I'm not expecting him to tell me "this is how we're like IE", I'm expecting him to explain a mechanic where I go "Hey - that's like the IE!"

There have been such mechanics, but you're always taking a glass-half-empty approach.

For example, PE has a magic system that demands spell preparation, just like the IE games. But because it's a bit modified from the IE games, you mark that down in your "SAWYER CHANGED IT, HE MUST HATE IT" list of changes instead of in the list of similarities.

 

[Delterius]

I'd like to know when I have declared that I can distill the essence of "IE-gameplay?"

Sure you can, or I should hope so. Otherwise, you'd be raging at what Sawyer says without context.

Also,

 

[Arkeus]

Six fully controllable party members, arranged in formations.
Isometric.
2D backgrounds.
PC exclusive.
Text heavy, without full voice acting.
Spell memorization/preparation mechanic (not mana and cooldowns like popamole games)
Obvious equivalents of all D&D races.
Obvious equivalents of all D&D classes (not just Warrior, Rogue, Mage like Dragon Age and other popamole RPGs but also Clerics, Paladins, Bards, etc)
Rich assortment of monsters (not just the same monsters repeated again and again with palette shifts like popamole games)

At this point, I'm actually unsure about the "text heavy" part. Avellone doesn't seem into that these days.

Mmmh, could you ask him about that? How text-heavy it is, i mean. E.G, more like IWD, or BG, or BG2?

 

[Infinitron]

Rivmusique He's responded: http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/476435386734770798

Mmmh, could you ask him about that? How text-heavy it is, i mean. E.G, more like IWD, or BG, or BG2?

Sawyer doesn't care much about writing, but I guess you could ask George Ziets.

 

[Dorateen]

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer

Dorateen Dwarven ruins!

I like the idea of dwarven colonists. Sounds like they got an independent streak, too.

 

[Lancehead]

I'd like to know what you consider IE gameplay; the fundamental aspects of it which must be emulated in order to consider PE an IE successor.

I'd like to know when I have declared that I can distill the essence of "IE-gameplay?" My use of that term has solely been when Sawyer himself made reference to gamplay elements from the IE-games. I.e. when he said that some aspect of the gameplay in the IE-games were degenerate or whatever.

You haven't declared such, but you must have some expectation of what an IE successor is, because without that frame of reference PE can be a true IE successor irrespective of what Sawyer says.

 

[Blaine]

Playing advocatus diaboli for a moment here, surely a critical-minded person would read this:

Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.

...connect it with Josh's clearly-stated determination to "fix" all the problems evinced in earlier IE games, and realize that what's being promised for PE as it stands is the best of each of the IE games with none (or few) of their weaknesses. Not only that, but the man-hours Obsidian can put into this project before their funds run out is purportedly significantly less than for any of the old IE games.

Sounds a little too good to be true, don't you think? Thoughts, Grunker?

 

[Grunker]

Eh, I'm not exactly sure what I'm being asked there, Blaine? Unless you're comparing making the ultimate singleplayer AND multiplayer experience with creating an IE-like. In which case I suppose my only response would be:

HERPA DERPA

What you quoted is a mission statement. What Roberts promised is essentially two games; a functioning, freeform quest-filled Wing Commander game and tightly balanced, exploration and mission-focused MMO.

 

[Blaine]

Whoa now, what does this have to do with any other game? This is a completely separate and compartmentalized discussion, I assure you.

 

[Hobz]

Has Saywer really been that critical of IE games ?

I'm fine with him looking for ways to improve the old formula, I'm sure we'll miss some aspects of the earlier games, obviously he can't please everyone and there is no such thing as a perfect game; but I'm more than willing to give him a shot and see how he well he does with brand new restriction-free setting to tinker with. (not that me being willing or not will change anything mind you...)