Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Endemic]

The renaming of the thread didn't give you a hint?

 

[Excidium]

Josh Sawyer's beautiful RPG design tidbits deserve nothing short of nearly 800 pages of discussion

 

[Grunker]

It's kind of endearing how this inane discussion forum has always had a good bunch of people who rages against the latest topic of inane discussion.

'spergers 'sperging 'spergers

 

[Hormalakh]

This update is the first one where I believe the title of this thread should be changed to "JOSH SAWYER AND TIM CAIN WANT TO END FUN."

I'm disappointed in those here who are swallowing this implementation of crafting without even blinking. Whatever this is, it is not IE-based.

While it is too early to tell how the skills pool is going to work (because OEI never gives us a bird's-eye view of their mechanics, they only suffice with tidbits from mechanics here and there), these skills are becoming less and less non-combat. I've written a little bit about this on the OEI forums. I'll post it here later.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

Crafting looks shit, Tim Cain should get back into the kitchen

 

[Grunker]

Whatever this is, it is not IE-based.

[...]

skills are becoming less and less non-combat. I've written a little bit about this on the OEI forums.

Yeah, I hear ya. Unlike all the non-combat skills of the IE-games

 

[Rake]

I still think they will change it. The discussion in their forums is against it for the most part, and all those that answered in Sawyer's post tell him for the most part similar things. He changed his mind with smaller outcry. Yes, crafting will be in, they promished it and can't remove it even if they want to, but the way the skill works can be heavily modified.
As for durability,

 

[Excidium]

While it is too early to tell how the skills pool is going to work (because OEI never gives us a bird's-eye view of their mechanics, they only suffice with tidbits from mechanics here and there), these skills are becoming less and less non-combat.

What a shock, knowing Sawyer's design inspirations.

 

[Hormalakh]

Whatever this is, it is not IE-based.

[...]

skills are becoming less and less non-combat. I've written a little bit about this on the OEI forums.

Yeah, I hear ya. Unlike all the non-combat skills of the IE-games

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/314089

Non-Combat Abilities

Let's talk first about your goals as a player, about the things you would like to do besides fighting. Then I'll talk about our design goals and explain how we are putting the non-combat systems together.
Player Goals
When you are not fighting, that's when non-combat abilities come into play. We plan to add abilities that will let you become better at achieving four different non-combat goals.

• Learning new things. This includes finding out previously unknown information, like the location of town or a hidden door, or uncovering secret knowledge, like a potion recipe or the true name of a demon. Or maybe you just want to know a good place to gather materials like ore or herbs. We will make abilities that let you find things out.
• Traveling around the world. You will want to improve your movement capabilities (such as sneaking around some ruins), or traveling across the world map faster or more safely, or even teleporting directly to your destination. And sometimes movement requires removing barriers like locks or traps, so you will need some way to unlock and disarm. We'll add abilities for these actions.
• Getting new items. (oh also we want to sort of make this a combat skill too) If you are not going to kill a creature to take its things, then we will give you the means to make new items, buy them, or steal them. Or maybe you will choose to support NPC's by bringing them the materials or the recipes needed to make new items for you. We congratulate you on your non-violent (well unless if its about your swords and how you can keep them durable) and cooperative plans of wealth acquisition, and we'll give you the means to do it.
• Interacting with companions. Once we have added many interesting and useful NPC companions, we will have to give you ways to recruit them, improve their usefulness, and keep them from dying (or even worse, disliking you!). We will make non-combat abilities that interact with your companions, so you can keep them alive and filled with a grudging respect for you.

Last time I remember, lockpick wasn't a combat skill in IE. Neither was Alchemy, Bluff, pick pocket, diplomacy, knowledge (arcana), in IWD2. The old IE games were a mish-mash of skills combat and non-combat. That was why they wrote that whole thing which I just qouted.

 

[Infinitron]

Problem, non-combatfags?

Crafting as described isn't even really a "combat skill" and I'm not sure why you're calling it that. A combat skill is something that directly helps you cause damage or avoid damage in combat. What does durability have to do with that?

 

[Hormalakh]

Problem, non-combatfags?

Crafting as described isn't even really a "combat skill" and I'm not sure why you're calling it that. A combat skill is something that directly helps you cause damage or avoid damage in combat. What does durability have to do with that?

Seriously? Crafting directly affects item durability and thus directly affects three things: ARMOR (combat) WEAPONS (combat) and SHILEDS (combat). DAMAGED items negatively affect combat. Or did you not read that?

Crafting is half combat and half non-combat. As a non-combat skill, only one player needs to put points in it. As a combat skill, every character needs to put points in it.

As it stands combat is now based on three "healths." Stamina, hit points, and combat item durability.

 

[Infinitron]

Seriously? Crafting directly affects item durability and thus directly affects three things: ARMOR (combat) WEAPONS (combat) and SHILEDS (combat). Crafting is half combat and half non-combat.

Derp, and if you use your Persuasion skill to persuade some of the boss's minions to abandon him, you reduce the difficulty of the boss fight, therefore Persuasion is a combat skill.

As a combat skill, every character needs to put points in it.

No. This isn't true, no matter how many times you repeat it.

 

[Hormalakh]

Crafting directly affects item durability.

The crafting skill also decreases the rate of degradation on items used by a character. So if you have the crafting skill, when you hit someone, your weapon doesn’t lose a whole point of durability. Instead it loses a fraction of a point. And when you are hit, your armor and shield don’t lose a whole point each either. And the higher your crafting skill, the less durability you lose.

And item durability affects combat effectiveness.

• Weapons – damaged weapons do less damage and have less accuracy
• Armor – damaged armor has lower damage thresholds and the wearer’s attack speed is slower
• Shields – damaged shields lose part of their defense bonuses

Thus crafting affects combat effectiveness. Derp.

 

[Infinitron]

Crafting directly affects item durability.

The crafting skill also decreases the rate of degradation on items used by a character. So if you have the crafting skill, when you hit someone, your weapon doesn’t lose a whole point of durability. Instead it loses a fraction of a point. And when you are hit, your armor and shield don’t lose a whole point each either. And the higher your crafting skill, the less durability you lose.

And item durability affects combat effectiveness.

• Weapons – damaged weapons do less damage and have less accuracy
• Armor – damaged armor has lower damage thresholds and the wearer’s attack speed is slower
• Shields – damaged shields lose part of their defense bonuses

Thus crafting affects combat effectiveness. Derp.

Newsflash: Even in the non-combat centric PS:T, most of your choices & consequences eventually came around to you earning various bonuses related to combat. It all eventually always comes down to combat.

A combat skill is a skill that directly affects combat with one single step of causality. Weapon proficiencies. Shield proficiencies. Those are your combat skills.

 

[Infinitron]

The logic of Sensuki and Hormalakh:

"My fighters' weapons can lose durability points and break, therefore all of my fighters must take the Crafting skill to avoid this."

But by that same logic, all of your fighters must also always take every talent, every skill and every ability score bonus that increases their health points!

You lose health in battle, after all! Everybody needs health! If they run out of health, they die! That's even worse than your weapon breaking!

Everybody needs to always take the health-increasing stuff on level-up! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE SAWYER AND CAIN!!!!

 

[Hormalakh]

Infinitron stop acting like an idiot.

Crafting as it plays now is a requirement for EVERY character.

As for your persuation example, that would be a scripted element. Not something static like item durability. I don't have an issue with certain battles having item durability scripted. I have an issue with item durability being caused by every joe schmoe. You also need ONE CHARACTER to persuade the enemies. Not every character to continue to persuade them each time.

 

[Hormalakh]

As for Torment, combat was not the ultimate factor: game content was. You had varying skills that affected the story you saw. Combat was secondary. It wasn't the main thing. Combat sucked in torment, everyone knows that. that's why it was called torment.

 

[Infinitron]

Crafting as it plays now is a requirement for EVERY character.

See my latest post.

 

[Rake]

Crafting directly affects item durability.

The crafting skill also decreases the rate of degradation on items used by a character. So if you have the crafting skill, when you hit someone, your weapon doesn’t lose a whole point of durability. Instead it loses a fraction of a point. And when you are hit, your armor and shield don’t lose a whole point each either. And the higher your crafting skill, the less durability you lose.

And item durability affects combat effectiveness.

• Weapons – damaged weapons do less damage and have less accuracy
• Armor – damaged armor has lower damage thresholds and the wearer’s attack speed is slower
• Shields – damaged shields lose part of their defense bonuses

Thus crafting affects combat effectiveness. Derp.

Newsflash: Even in the non-combat centric PS:T, most of your choices & consequences eventually came around to you earning various bonuses related to combat. It all eventually always comes down to combat.

A combat skill is a skill that directly affects combat with one single step of causality. Weapon proficiencies. Shield proficiencies. Those are your combat skills.

My problem is not the skill. It just a symtom of Sawyer's whole direction to have absolutelly no dump stats, everything to be balanced and every tiny thing to be a good choice for everyone all the time.
I don't dislike the direction, but i think he goes to extreem levels.

 

[Hormalakh]

The logic of Sensuki and Hormalakh:

"My fighters' weapons can lose durability points and break, therefore all of my fighters must take the Crafting skill to avoid this."

But by that same logic, all of your fighters must also always take every talent, every skill and every ability score bonus that increases their health points!

You lose health in battle, after all! Everybody needs health! If they run out of health, they die! That's even worse than your weapon breaking!

Everybody needs to always take the health-increasing stuff on level-up! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE SAWYER AND CAIN!!!!

the difference is that health can be mitigated b tactics and other buffs. as it stands now item durability has only one input (because sawyer loves one input equations) and that is crafting skill. you always take durability damage regardless of what happens. If you strike, you lose durability.

 

[Infinitron]

the difference is that health can be mitigated b tactics and other buffs. as it stands now item durability has only one input (because sawyer loves one input equations) and that is crafting skill.

Wrong. There might be one skill, but there are several ways to apply it. You don't have to forestall your weapon breakage by giving your fighter ranks in the Crafting skill.

This may shock you but you can in fact...let your weapon break! And have your dedicated crafting guy repair it for you immediately afterwards! Presto!

 

[trais]

ITT we learn that skill which is checked every time a character makes combat action, or take damage in combat is non-combat skill. I feel smarter already!

 

[Hormalakh]

the difference is that health can be mitigated b tactics and other buffs. as it stands now item durability has only one input (because sawyer loves one input equations) and that is crafting skill.

Wrong. There might be one skill, but there are several ways to apply it. You don't have to forestall your weapon breakage by giving your fighter ranks in the Crafting skill.

This may shock you but you can in fact...let your weapon break! And have your dedicated crafting guy repair it for you immediately afterwards! Presto!

Not until you return to town. If you want to continue dungeon delving, you're SOL.

All of this is to finally say that crafting has become a mutt of a skill. Both combat and non-combat. The fact that you are equating character health with item durability proves my point.

In the same vein to your example, I could have all my characters have low health and then get a super duper priest to keep reviving my characters for me. Presto!

 

[Infinitron]

Not until you return to town. If you want to continue dungeon delving, you're SOL.

Then bring another weapon with you. Or use the broken one, it's probably just a small penalty anyway.

Also, they're almost certainly going to put crafting stations within the dungeons, at regular intervals. Just like rest spots.

All of this is to finally say that crafting has become a mutt of a skill. Both combat and non-combat. The fact that you are equating character health with item durability proves my point.

If you'd like to define "combat skill" as a skill which is checked in combat, then fine. I don't really care about semantics anyway.

 

[Hormalakh]

It sure makes a lot of sense to have forges in every dungeon I'm adventuring through. Hmm this cave better have a forge or else it's a dumb cave.

How exactly do you define a combat skill?